1. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Q4 2019 Story Competition is kicking off!

    Prompt:
    Foreign Magical Regions (Setting outside of Britain)
    Get writing Folks!
    Dismiss Notice

China Systematically Eradicating Islam

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Taure, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Messages:
    506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    High Score:
    2398
    Yes to your first part. No to your second.

    Christianity is thriving in China. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ds-most-Christian-nation-within-15-years.html

    Edit: Rereading your statement, may have confused what you mean. Are you saying China is doing well at suppressing Christianity? Because despite persecution, it’s not.
     
  2. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,271
    High Score:
    1,802
    I think religion's a lot more likely to change and evolve with the times than vanish completely. If nothing else, I think it's highly unlikely that 100% of the human race will ever agree on something as big as religion/moral philosophy.

    As for the internet being the end of religion ... is this the same internet that spawned a major resurgence in things like Flat Earth, Anti-Vax, Space Denial, Gravity Denial, and need I go on?
     
  3. Johnnyseattle

    Johnnyseattle Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cascadia
    Seems weird to compare it to reality, but the last book Tom Clancy wrote in its entirety before he died was pretty much about this happening for one reason or another - I don't remember the details, but it was a good read with a story I could definitely see unfolding similarly in real life.

    As for a war with China being un-winnable... I don't think there would really be a winner, really, seeing we're both nuclear-capable. Take that off the table though, and it's an interesting debate what a 'win' would consist of, and whether that would be achievable.
     
  4. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,271
    High Score:
    1,802
    Yeah, it would depend a lot on what each side was trying to achieve. At the moment the US has massive naval superiority (though China's working to close that gap), while the air force situation is a lot more of a toss-up (a lot depends on how ready the US is, how many planes they have based in the area, etc). The big issue would be on the army front, since China's army is bigger and would presumably have the advantage of operating on their home field.

    In short, the US probably couldn't pull off a successful invasion of China (especially since trying that would make it far more likely nukes start flying and everyone loses), but it stands a good chance of winning a more limited naval/air conflict. No doubt why China's trying to build up a proper blue-water fleet and has so much invested in land-based aircraft.
     
  5. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Messages:
    506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    High Score:
    2398
    I think the bigger question is what Russia does.

    Would they actively join on China’s side? Unlikely, but I’d say goodbye to a lot of the Eastern European countries and for Russia’s influences in the ME to increase.
     
  6. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Connecticut
    High Score:
    2810
    As has been outlined above, the Chinese government's rationale for their actions seems largely contrived, and has very little to do with Islam.

    To answer the OP, raising children in religion is not immoral, even if I find the religions themselves at best useless, and at worst actively dangerous. Given that, the other two questions are irrelevant.
     
  7. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,271
    High Score:
    1,802
    Parents are always going to try to pass on their values/beliefs to their children, and even in a world with no religion there are plenty of non-religious belief systems out there that I wouldn't want children raised to believe. I'd certainly consider Neo-Nazis raising their children to be Neo-Nazis every bit as bad as the Westboro Baptist Church.

    However, the state being the final arbiter of what parents are and aren't allowed to teach their children is something that can pretty quickly get out of hand. I'd rather have every parent teaching their own PoV, even if it means some of them will teach their kids horrible things, if the alternative is having one state-mandated philosophy/belief system.
     
  8. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,115
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    People's Republic of California
    Conflating "Han" and "Chinese" implicitly like you did here is exactly what the Party wants and really shouldn't be done.
     
  9. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,293
    High Score:
    6005
    Maybe I'm naive, but saying you highly disagree with going to war with China, but then offering massive, crippling sanctions seems a bit counter intuitive. I'm pretty sure their ruination is something they'd be willing to go to war over...
     
  10. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Connecticut
    High Score:
    2810
    I mean, functionally, what's the alternative? Han does mean Chinese in all practical senses, what with it being 92% of the population.
     
  11. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,120
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    What can they do? They are militarily weaker than us already. They would never be able to invade Europe or America, let alone both. The reason it's a losing war for America, who is much stronger, would be holding China, not the invasion itself. We've put harsh sanctions on Russia for years, nearly to the point of bankruptcy, and they never even thought about declaring war. China would be the same.

    Now, onto the real reason I am posting. Vice sent some people undercover to China to look into the situation. Everyone should watch this. It's worse than you could imagine and it's obvious the everyday Han people just don't care. Poor children. They really do want to systematically remove all the minorities.

     
  12. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,863
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Blocksberg, Germany
    It's functionally wrong simply on the basis that the government is getting involved. It has no business deciding where childrens go and how they are raised (with the obvious exception; the point, as usual, is about what is the default). Furthermore, regarding the motivation: we police after the fact -- that is to say, once they have become radicals and become violent. Not in advance on the possibility that they might. Everyone who considers this unsatisfactory has a point, and everyone who tries to rectify said point has missed it.

    Given that I hardly ever think it moral categories, I couldn't say whether it's "moral" -- but insofar as morality is supposed to present answers to the question of "what should I do", the above works for me in the same manner, and the answer is an emphatic No.

    ---

    To make this a bit more nerdy, however: A hypothetical wizarding government is okay for removing Muggleborns from their parents to raise them in the wizarding world, because ...?
     
  13. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Connecticut
    High Score:
    2810
    Because it makes for good plot and character conflict. See PotDK.
     
  14. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,863
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Blocksberg, Germany
    From an in-story perspective, obviously -- that is, the moral merits (or lack thereof) of taking them away from their original families.
     
  15. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,115
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    People's Republic of California
    8% of one of the largest two populations in the world is still a substantial amount of people, including the lion share of certain regional groups like Mongolians. It also matters because the Han would like nothing more than for you to forget those people exist so they can pull a "Mountain Turk" doublespeak on them.
     
  16. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Messages:
    506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    High Score:
    2398
    It’s essentially the equivalent of ignoring the differences between white Americans and minorities.

    Claiming that every American’s experience is the same and ethnicity doesn’t matter.
     
  17. Solfege

    Solfege Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,196
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    Have meant to write a bit but been busy lately. It's worth bringing in the CCP's own perspective, which differs considerably in its framework from anything the thread's considered. Though on this, I have only their overarching view of the Uyghur issue and not on the sequence of decisions leading up to child separation (which may be out of similar callous incompetence as has resulted in Trump's child detention policy).

    The overriding priority of the CCP is economic growth. We all know that, and the Uyghur issue has always been viewed within party ranks in that light. The landlocked western regions have been shut out of the coastal Chinese growth engine. The inland provinces remain conservative, backwards, and arguably worse off than during communism proper. Most Uyghur locals do not speak Chinese, and most Chinese can't speak Uyghur. It's pretty much frontier territory.

    The default position of Han people on minorities is what gets pushed by the CCP official propaganda --- that minorities are happy people who love to dance and have rich cultural traditions [see how assortments of minority performances get paraded out during CCP celebrations]. But then you have the Uyghur riots in 2009, which is followed by the knife attacks in 2014 by Hui muslims in Yunnan province near the Burmese border. Again, most Han people have as much contact as most white Americans with blacks --- haven't met any, know generally only of rumors.

    So incidences of radicalism and unrest freak the common Chinese out, not to mention the CCP. Ad hoc campaigns backed by the ministry of culture to put up Uyghur performers/celebrities on national television have been exercised to try to soften the edges.

    Now, prior to 2009 there were issues about Chinese Uyghurs who were incited to travel to Turkey, thousands of whom were recruited ultimately to fight Assad and settle in northeast Syria. Wahhabism made its major inroads to Xinjiang during the '90s. You've got to remember, Chinese Islam isn't actually traditional Chinese Islam; it's mostly recent Middle Eastern import, and particularly KSA. The real stuff got snuffed out during Maoism and the Cultural Revolution. Even the buildings got rebuilt in Middle Eastern fashion.

    That's why the Party's been so concerned about domestic Islam and porous borders. That's why the Party's been making deals over the past couple years with influential Chinese imams to "re-sinicise" Chinese Islam, this time in-line with "Chinese socialism" (which is a totally vague term BTW) --- including rebuilding the mosques.

    Today the western roads have largely been closed; the western border's pretty secure as we can know (Afghani AK-47 gun trade hasn't made really any appearance). Extremists can still get to the eastern coast via SEA/boat, but... well, this is all part of the extreme costs of internal security, which already outstrips the costs of great power militarisation. It's also fair to say that a good part of why you get Wahhabist outflow, but not inflow, is because of the crackdowns against extremism since the 2000s. In the past the CCP saw Islam as a common ally against the capitalist west. No more.

    And of course, anti-terrorism also makes a good excuse for visible paramilitarisation of local police to deter unrest among far more populous Han Chinese, say, migrant populations in the urban areas.

    ===================

    Anyway, the CCP's vision in its usual way was, unrest in Xinjiang is due to lack of economic development. Their answer was therefore a program that sent off CCP cadre, professors and experts, can think of them as coastal hipster urbanites, into the hinterland to study and make recommendations for development/investment programs.

    But it's truly the boondocks, and socially conservative too; it's a program only for the most ambitious, where the risk is acknowledged as after your couple years' rotation you get put on a promotional fast-track back on the coasts. And it's been dangerous, as Han people just straight-up disappear, presumably from radicals who harbor separatist sentiment.

    It got so bad that the visiting experts [who stay with Muslim hosts that don't even speak a common language] didn't dare to venture out of the village centers, which defeats the whole point. So the CCP response was, let's institutionalise all the known troublemakers to make this easier.

    Of course, the CCP feels that the western elite should ably understand the overriding prerogative of the Party to pursue economic growth and domestic stability (without which, to be honest, the current world economy would be a little bit fucked... have you seen the numbers on how European net exports --- Europe on the verge of recession --- depend on Chinese domestic credit decisions lately?)

    Thus the CCP's brazen willingness to defend their detention camps on the international stage. The CCP elite sees the issue as a race against time: can they reeducate and upskill enough of the local populace to become relatively better-off factory workers in a supply chain connected to the coastal regions. They genuinely think of it in terms of skills training, and the optimal solution to the whole trouble as economic development/quality-of-life renewal.

    An alarming thing is the extent to which the CCP [at the national Beijing level] may be out of touch with everyone else. It's clear that most don't bother with non-Chinese perspectives on affairs, believe that their internally driven "scientific logics" will see them through their problems.

    Of course, things kind of get fucked in the usual CCP machinery as, while some elites and experts may be aware of Islamic nuances, CCP rank and file --- this probably includes most of the people actually implementing directives from the regional level on down --- are typically ignorant. You do hear of, for instance, various blanket bans about this or that Islamic practice, language-wise or whatever, but that's likely issued from local police/magistrates who don't really have much grasp on the social nuances and just figure it'll make their jobs easier.

    I wonder to what degree the Xinjiang boarding schools are a matter of convenience (given detained parents) versus economic development. Probably both.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
Loading...