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Christchurch Mosque shooting

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by Innomine, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Innomine

    Innomine Order Member Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Err, by all reports we actually have some of the most liberal gun laws in the world. Our police force have said this repeatedly, while calling for greater control (Police in NZ do not carry guns all the time, but they have access to them in their vehicles).

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ch...stchurch-attack--but-what-does-that-look-like

    This is a decent summary of what's being talked about right now.
    --- Post automerged ---
    @Invictus I find you to be one of the most ardent critical voices on DLP - you have a no holds barred approach. So when you say that Adern has been a wonderful leader, it carries that much more weight.

    I agree. If there's one thing that makes me incredibly proud, it's been our response to this event as a nation. The initial response was professional, competent, and, most importantly, no mistakes. Apart from the fact that we didn't catch onto this guy sooner.

    Six minutes after the first call to 111 armed police were on the scene, ten minutes later, the armed offenders squad, thirty six minutes later, he was in custody without a single shot fired by police. Two rural police officers thought he might use a specific road to get around town, found him, and rammed his car off the road. This saved lives, more was planned. This is to say nothing of the emergency response workers.

    But that's not the half of it, the other half has been the leadership from the government in response. This government was elected on a ticket for a kinder face from government, more compassion, and Adern has delivered that in spades here. The instant response was one of unity without compunction. These were her first words to the nation a few hours afterwards.

    But it is not just a response of good feelings. The government will cover all of the funeral costs involved, including expatriation and compensate the families affected for lost income, as most of the victims were the breadwinners. But it's not just about throwing money at the problem, it's about how you spend that money. My area of expertise is disaster recovery, and one of the most challenging ones for New Zealand in the past has been accounting for the human dimensions. Here we did not fail in that. It was anticipated in advance. Things like expediting visas for family members, setting up the restoring family links phone service and other help lines. These may all sound like obvious things to do, but doing them proactively instead of reactively makes a huge difference.

    As for the prisoner himself. Our response to that has been excellent as well. Lets not forget, this was not just an extremist attack on Muslims, it was also a call to fame. Everything about this was designed to go viral on social media. For him to gain a level of notoriety. So what is our response? Take from him everything that he desires. He is denied access to any kind of media or newspapers in prison, his face is not the first thing you see when you go onto a news website. The video he tried to propagate is being squashed.

    But it was this statement given in Parliament today that I find most satisfying.

    Edit: The whole speech is worth a watch. https://www.parliament.nz/en/WatchParliament/PlayVideo/OnDemand/205576
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  2. Nazgus

    Nazgus Minister of Magic

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    For a long time one of my favorite songs has been Legion of Monsters by Disturbed. It's a song that talks about exactly this, that in giving the attackers so much attention and the victims so little, we're essentially giving these sort of people even more reasons to go out and commit acts of terror.
    It makes me really happy to see the NZ government deny the shooter everything he wanted, and applaud their decision to render him nameless. I hope other governments (especially the USA) follow suit.

    Fully agree, it's less than 15 minutes and worth every one of them.
     
  3. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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    I'm going to try my best to be respectful in this disagreement (not my strong suit).

    The PM's response to this is, at best, insufficient. When she says "This is not us", she fails to acknowledge New Zealand's origin as a settler-colonial state, which is implicitly white supremacist. She fails to acknowledge that "...in March [2018] the country’s prison population hit a record 10,820 people – more than 50% of whom are Māori, despite indigenous people making up only 16% of New Zealand’s population." She fails to acknowledge the country's assistance to the US in imperialist oil wars, the ones that destabilized the Middle East and created a refugee crisis in the first place. She fails to acknowledge the daily experience of marginalized people in New Zealand who encounter racism every day. These actions belong on the same spectrum as individually carried out pogroms in the name of white supremacy.

    The gun debate is another thread, but I don't think that is the limit of action needed. White supremacy is ingrained in western society, and that's what needs to be addressed.
     
  4. Innomine

    Innomine Order Member Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Easy words, but little truth.

    You'll find that her election campaign consistently brought up the issue of prison population proportion by ethnicity, and is being worked on right now. A repeal to the three strikes law, which massively increased the prison population without equally reducing crime was attempted to be struck down, but was blocked by one of the three coalition partners. NZ First. But more than that, this is not about the prison population, this speech was about the victims.

    As for taking a look in the mirror? And the struggles of marginalised people experiencing everyday racism? You'll find many articles in the public conversation about our history and the current lived experiences immigrants - and you'll find references to this by her in her speeches as well.

    Edit: To be clear, I do not claim that we are doing everything we can in these matters. But what I do claim, is that we are doing more than has been done in the past. Is it enough? By itself, probably not, but hopefully it is the start of the a long and fruitful debate that has the potential to result in positive social change. Only time will tell.

    I won't bother responding to the rest. I suspect we could argue all day, but there's the ideal, and then there's the world we live in. From most of your posts on DLP, I judge that you find it very easy to criticise, but you offer little in the way of solutions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  5. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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    NZ First blocking the repeal is racial violence. The SCOTUS deciding any immigrant with a criminal record can be detained indefinitely is racial violence. This is us.

    You can't set the time table for other people's liberation. From Dr. King: "In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action."

    Here's a good article on non violent strikes in New Zealand last year. It's focused on labor, but I imagine there are plenty of Maori Party or similar groups planning actions for racial justice that would love another body at a sit-in. There was a huge kids' climate strike the day of the shooting. Long and fruitful debate, potential to result in change? A nazi is doing pogroms in your country at this point, c'mon man.
     
  6. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    By virtue of *any* as well as the condition being *a criminal record* dissuades me from calling it racial; nor is detaining inherently an act of violence.

    I'd go a step further and argue that national soverignty inherently involves the right to detain at point of unapproved entry, refuse entry, or expel any non-citizen for any reason or no reason at all. But either way, your claim of racial violence in this paritcular is retarded.
     
  7. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure he's running with the definition/paradigm where "being white" is inherently racially violent and supremacist, if I remember my critical race theory bullshit correctly. It's probably not worth the baud to argue with him about it.
     
  8. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    When will people get the message that they need to confine their criminal behavior to the racially correct statistical share of the population?

    /s
     
  9. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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    Yeah, dude, the fucking Wall party isn't racially motivated in this. I'm sure they mean well in stripping immigrant rights.

    Detaining an immigrant without due process is without doubt violence. It's violence on the individual, it's violence on the family of the individual. There are international treaties guaranteeing these rights to immigrants from the UN General Assembly.

    And, you've pretty much described the idea that a state is defined by a monopoly of violence within its borders. I'm sure that's completely moral though, just ask the young "black identity extremists" killed by the FBI in their sleep or the hundreds of young black men killed in routine police encounters.
     
  10. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    A wall prevents noncitizens who are not in the country from entering the country. We can argue till the cows come home of whether the wall would be effective, but a foreigner living in a foreign land has no rights to enter the country. Nor do they have any rights to be granted by or preserved by the United States. As such, they cannot be stripped of these nonexistant rights, anymore than Japanese customs officers are somehow stripping me of rights simply by existing, or Israel's wall is stripping me of rights.

    One, no it's not. Two, The UN General Assembly holds no legal power over the United States. Nor, given how open US immigration is and the rights entitled to immigrants compared to the vast majority of countries that make up the UN General Assembly, am I inclined to care even on abstract principle. Three, it is not against the law because SCOTUS said it wasn't. Four, I refer you back to the historical concept of national sovereignty and citizenship. A foreign people that a government has no power to expel are called conquerers.

    Obviously I haven't, because I fully support citizens having access to weaponry. I do support citizens of a country - and the government obviously being made up of a subset of citizens, by one method or another - having a monopoly of violence within its borders.

    Irrelevant given that I didn't support the first thing you said and have no issue with African-Americans owning firearms, and support mandatory body cameras on the police. Furthermore, the state having the inherent right to police its borders does not somehow translate into internal alleged police brutality. That's a retarded leap of logic on your part, though par for the course for your post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  11. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I'm sorry, what?
     
  12. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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  13. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    Somebody better answer that phone, because I fucking called it.
     
  14. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    I was in Texas last week! I go to Texas about once a month. Very nice people!

    You do actual immigrants a disservice when you use the term to describe everyone here who was born someplace else, regardless of how they got here. Granted, I think legal immigration should be curtailed, but I don't hold that against the immigrants who are told there is a process for coming here and following it.

    Tell me, what are the consequences for illegally entering Mexico if the Mexican government decides they don't approve of either the incursion or your final destination?

    I am unsure why I am supposed to feel sorry for police forces using force when people resist the law. Literally the entire concept of law rests on the idea that violence is behind its enforcement. So if someone is entering the country illegally and then resists, then by all means.

    If you oppose the use of police force for arresting people and subsequently punishing them for doing X, or for resisting arrest for doing X, the only moral option is to decriminalize X. Choosing to have X be illegal but then not enforcing it (or even worse, selectively enforcing it), is a problem. Enforcing the law through force if necessary is not.

    Though I think we both know you are using the term violence much more liberally than that.

    And 'immigrants' is not a race. Are you suggesting that there are swarms of illegal aryans crossing the Rio Grande that Texas authorities are turning a blind eye towards?

    Edit: Whew. When your position is such that you consider myself and @Darth_Revan to be on the same side of an issue, maybe it's time to consider that you're the one standing at an extreme end of the spectrum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  15. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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  16. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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    Not like there's a historical record with Fred Hampton as well.

    Loving the dogwhistles, boys, keep em coming. We're after the whites with our critical theory! Watch out!
     
  17. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    I'm quite happy to take a ban or warning for this, but fuck you're a cunt.

    Do you think you are being productive, do you think in anyway you are making the world a better place or productively adding to any debate?

    You may believe this BS your saying, but even if you are that naive and backwards, how do you think you are helping?
     
  18. Innomine

    Innomine Order Member Prestige DLP Supporter

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    And this all has what to do with the Christchurch Mosque Killings?

    Going back to when you were actually talking about the topic, what is your end goal here? What are you trying to say? You are quick to criticise, but you spend little time proposing what should be done instead. Because right now all you are doing is screeching unintelligibly from a perceived position of moral high ground. Your MLK soundbite sounds great, but how does that apply to reality? You can't just wave a wand and magically fix a problem, that's not how the world works. You talk big, but your words are easy to say. There is no substance.

    And why are you trying to tell me what is happening in my own country? I was at the kids climate strike outside parliament that morning, I was in parliament when the attack happened. I am well aware of the labour strikes, I am also aware (unlike you) of the political context surrounding why the current debates are what they are. I wrote my honours thesis on the neoliberalisation of New Zealand.
     
  19. Zenzao

    Zenzao 500 Club King Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Since I've got nothing else to say that Agayek, vlad, and Innomine haven't already said, I'll trade my Prestige +1 for S if that post is deemed ban-worthy.
     
  20. BitMyFinger

    BitMyFinger Banned

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    I have no idea how you managed to get through college if you can't keep the concept of white supremacy in our society in your head for 30 seconds.
     
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