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Civility in the US political discourse and identity politics

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Arthellion, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I'm sure it's tiring. That doesn't change the fact that its the right thing to do.

    And I don't expect you to take it lying down. Fight for your rights. Speak what you believe to be true, but do so in the kindest way possible.

    Trust me when I say this...you piss off the conservative assholes so much more when you respond with kindness and dignity than when you debase yourself to their level. Because, in their heart of hearts, they know you're being what they say they are and it galls them.

    Reverting to insults just makes them feel justified and emboldens them further. It's a persecution complex.
     
  2. ThePinkTomato

    ThePinkTomato Prestigious Tomato ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Doubt. For the sake of the argument, I would not vote for a man who boasts about ripping off the little guy or of sexual assault. This is already straying away form your initial point and towards 'no u' territory.
     
  3. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    Arthellion. We get it. We just don't care. We got Trump.

    It's not going to get better by being nicer. It's too late for that. Fuck Trump and everyone that stands with him. It's not our job to be the adult in the room. We tried that with Obama and it didn't work.
     
  4. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I get what you're saying. But given how ineffective being nice has proven, I can heavily sympathise with liberals who are subject to bigotry and hatred by the right and respond with insults.

    A big part of the problem is that people who base their beliefs on their religion aren't ever willing to compromise. They claim a moral high ground whilst spewing hatred, vitriol, and bigotry. They believe that their hatred is going to get them into heaven, so they see no reason to ever change. Being nice to them isn't going to change their beliefs, being rude to them isn't. But at least being rude to them is good for my mental health, where being nice to them is the opposite.
     
  5. Silens Cursor

    Silens Cursor The Silencer DLP Supporter

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    I'm really glad you brought this up, because it actually speaks to something I encountered just this weekend (personal anecdote time but also relevant in the larger conversation).

    So, I was part of a counter-protest on Saturday near the gay neighbourhood (The Village) in my city. Basically what's been happening is one of the street preachers in downtown has made it a hobby to bring his microphone and amplifier into the middle of The Village and scream at people, and he's been told many times to GTFO. He put together a protest that was going to march through the village with signs like 'Christianity deserves equal rights too' and scream at more people, this time with 100+ supporters and a cadre of far-right troublemakers (incidentally, there were signs unfurled that showed his affiliation with the PPC, and given this is election time in Canada, that's a DICEY association). I went with the counter-protesters and yes, antifa was there to ensure that people were safe and our position wasn't compromised - and I'm okay with that, given that it very much remained non-violent (despite what Cernovich and the rest of the alt-right goons are trying to showcase on Twitter this morning).

    Because here's the thing: a lot of those street preachers and religious congregations that showed up? Even removing 'hatred' from the equation (which is being charitable and an expression of good faith many have not earned), their presence and activities are designed to go into a primarily LGBT space and say "our right to discriminate against you and make it clear we don't want you to exist" deserves as much attention (and police protection) as you saying "leave us the fuck alone". That makes this a zero-sum game, because you're fighting against a group who doesn't want you to exist and wants to go into your space and scream at you until you don't. And not only that, they're the ones with the police escort and the symbolic weight of the system at large protecting them.

    And keep in mind this is not the 'free marketplace of ideas' or whatever horseshit Rubin and Shapiro yammer on about, this is a religious group that will invalidate any statement you make because 'you are blinded and do not see the Lord's will', so me shouting back they don't understand the very Gospel and Jesus figure they venerate does not register whatsoever. They aren't looking to 'engage' with you, they're looking to express power and control.

    And you want to know the freedom that comes with not being screamed at by someone trying to invalidate your existence or even facing the passive (and not so passive) systemic indifference of the police who are there to protect the bigots, not those pushing against them? The freedom that comes with being able to walk down the streets regularly without anyone knowing or caring?

    Well, that's called privilege. In this case it comes with sexuality and being cis vs. trans, but it can expand to gender and race as well.

    Post-script: I don't normally link YouTube videos here, but this one from PhilosophyTube springs to mind:



    Now let's circle back to impeachment and get back on topic, because polls are already shifting and just from a statistical point of view can be fascinating to watch.
     
  6. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Last thing I'll say on the matter...the responses of those in this thread arguing against kindness and civility are almost, verbatim, the response I get from the right when I tell them the same thing. The whataboutism is rampant.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Choosing kindness is the right and just path forward...even if the other side doesn't.
     
  7. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    It's not wrong to defend yourself and it's not wrong to stand up against hatred and bigotry. The only person engaging in whataboutism is you, because you're comparing both sides actions as if there is a good neutral position.
     
  8. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I totally agree that it's not wrong to defend yourself and it's not wrong to stand up against hatred and bigotry.

    What's wrong is when you become a bigot yourself towards your opponents. Which is what rudeness/lack of civiliness/etc is.

    I'm not arguing for a neutral position. I'm arguing that you hold your position and treat people with dignity regardless of whether they deserve it or not.

    Also whataboutism is an attempt to justify your position by saying that the other side is just as bad. I'm not doing that. I'm saying regardless of which side you're on, it is morally wrong to be a bigot towards the other side.
     
  9. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    At the risk of being wrong from both perspectives, it seems to me like folks are talking past each other a bit.

    On one hand, Arthellion says "be kind, be like Jesus". I could agree with this on principle. The problem is that there are things where polite disagreement is kind impossible. Being polite and kind in every case doesn't work because people aren't Jesus and there will always be that one asshole who takes advantage.

    The discussion shifted from abortion to LGBT rights and those two issues seemed to blend together when they're imo rather different. By Arth's philosophy, someone could say "I don't like gay marriage, I think it's a sin, but I love the sinner so do what you want. Get married, just leave me to have my opinion that gay marriage is wrong". That, I think, could be a reasonable compromise. Someone having an opinion, without acting on it (in this case it would be forbidding gay marriage) doesn't hurt you. I get that LGBT folks don't like it when they hear people say that gay marriage is wrong, but ultimately, if your right to marry isn't taken away, then you really have no reason not to just agree to disagree.

    Abortion is a different beast. Hard to find a compromise between "you are literally murdering babies" and "I can do what I want". If one believes personal liberty is more important here, then at worst they don't care what someone else is doing with fetuses. But if one believes that human life is sacred and shit, then murdering babies (in their mind) is a pretty hot topic. Tbh I don't see a compromise here.

    Otoh, I very much doubt that every Republican/conservative/right-leaning person/take your pick is of the virulent kind like the people who proclaim that God hates faggots and libruls murder babies. There is space to compromise and while I don't think approaching everyone with kindness is necessary or desirable, I also don't think that taking the default position of "fuck these other people" is productive. At the very least you can make one attempt to see if the other party actually wants to have a discussion about something, and I think that's the broad point @Arthellion was trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong mate). That there are people on the other side of aisle worth talking to, but if you never try, you'll never get to know them.

    In all honesty, I totally understand writing someone off as a hopeless case if they come out of the gate with "fuck faggots". Everyone has to be willing to try talking, the onus here isn't just on one side.

    One might think that there are things so obvious that they shouldn't need explaining (like climate change) but I think that more often, those opinions come from ignorance, not malice. You can try to explain. Of course, the other party has to be willing to listen--that's on them.

    To put this word salad in the American context, everyone is hearing the most vocal extremists on Twitter. One side is like "dumb librulhs", the other is like "Nazis and racists, all of them". If that's as far as we go, then it's no surprise Trump is a thing. I don't think every person who was ever in the proximity of antifa is an anarcho-communist, but I also don't think everyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  10. VanRopen

    VanRopen Order Member

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    Pictured: A noble Republican, beset by the cruelties of liberal propaganda, calmly delivering his message:

    [​IMG]

    Please, nobody be rude to or speak poorly of this man. He might then go support Trump, and it would be all our fault :(
     
  11. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Your strawman does you little credit Vanropen. You're smarter than that.
     
  12. VanRopen

    VanRopen Order Member

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    There’s no strawman there, I’m entirely 100% serious. Tell me liberals created Rush Limbaugh and his ilk and I can do nothing but laugh, because it’s absolute bullshit.

    “Science” isn’t one of those corners because mean scientists talked down to poor conservatives and they got FILLED WITH SEETHING HATRED OH NO.

    Science is one of those corners because the GOP specifically chose to pursue an electoral strategy built around a media environment that glorified anti-intellectualism and revered bullies, while also pushing back against scientists whenever their claims were inconvenient.


    Newt Gingrich didn’t defund the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment in 1995(!) because those mean liberals called Bush a stupid nazi liar. The Office was attacked because Reagan hated that he was contradicted by a couple of their reports, and the party as a whole realized it would be easier to lie to the public without good research existing to contradict them. This rot is fundamental to the modern incarnation of the GOP, and it wasn’t put there by an outside force.
     
  13. pbluekan

    pbluekan Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Well said. I suppose it feels a little weak coming after that, but there’s a little I’d like to address here. Also, maybe one of the mods could move these posts to a new thread.
    So, I think it’s worth addressing, @Arthellion that I’m not quite sure you -get- it either. Let’s put abortion and LGBTQ to one side for a bit and just use climate change and Iraq as our examples.

    A great deal of the ‘rational, calm’ debate and discussion occurred. But in the broader populace, it is extremely difficult to have constructive discussion when your opposite is working from a knowledge base that is quite literally a lie. You can blame Fox News for that. The shit they’ve peddled since their rise to mainstream news status in the Monica Lewinsky scandal is absolutely mind boggling.
    Dude. What about the years of verbal abuse creating this culture in the Left? This was part of my point earlier about the hypocrisy of the author of the book you were quoting earlier. He puts a lot of blame on the left for radicalizing the right, but blithely ignores that it was the same culture in the right causing the radicalization in the left.

    It never went from one direction and back the other, it literally came from both simultaneously.
     
  14. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    It is 100% a strawman because I am not talking about Gingrich, Limbaugh etc. I am talking about the common conservative. I am talking about what could cause Evangelicals who were so fundamentally against Clinton for his character failures and held to those beliefs abjectly as a standard for their politicians to turn to vote for Trump.

    I'm talking about how the majority of media and the left treated republicans like idiots. Get this...insulting your opponent is going to make them bitter.

    The bitterness, the anger, the resorting to name calling happened for numerous reasons...but a large reason is that the right felt unheard. They felt bitter. They felt ridiculed for their values and beliefs. So they turned to a strongman to "fight back."


    RE: Limbaugh...liberals, with their lack of treating conservative with respect in the media lefts a huge hole that Limbaugh was happy to fulfill.

    The left is not innocent. Ultimately, conservatives are responsible for their owns sins, but to ignore the contributions of the left that created this environment is absolute foolishness and will only result in the right continuing to win.

    Generation Z is suprisingly more conservative than one would think (Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-changes-political-divides-2019-7)

    That, coupled with the judicial support...the right is going to continue to win.

    I can definitely agree with this actually, but once again...whataboutism. Both sides were wrong to do this. I'm not talking to conservatives right now (Trust me I piss them off too), I'm talking to liberals who need to adhere to their fucking principles of compassion and extending that compassion to people they disagree with.

    Stop sticking your head in the sand, take responsibility and be better.. Because God knows the republicans won't. You have the moral high ground now. Don't lose it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  15. pbluekan

    pbluekan Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Not exactly sure how you got that from that article. It pretty specifically mentions that a vast majority of gen z is against almost everything that the current conservative status quo holds to.
    It’s not whataboutism when you keep saying things like this:
    Yes, they felt ridiculed. Yes they felt bitter. They feel unheard. So did the other side.
     
  16. Conquistador

    Conquistador Professor

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    This. I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong. I also personally believe that abortion is wrong. That said, I do not support measures limiting peoples rights.

    It's very similar to my stance on drugs. I don't do drugs, and I probably never will. That said, if someone decides that they want to use drugs, that's completely their decision. I'm annoyed when people say that being personally opposed to something makes you a terrible person. I'm not limiting your access to something I disagree with. Why are you vilifying my opinions?

    Labeling people as homophobic, or against women's rights, or as supporters of a police state because of their personal beliefs is stupid. I support personal liberty. That means I support your right to participate in activities I view as morally corrupt, largely because I believe that morality is a highly personal issue. Nobody should be forcing their beliefs on someone else. This is the difference in between a pious individual and a crusader. I will live my doing what I believe is morally and ethically sound because that is what I believe God wants from me. If you disagree and want to deviate from that path, that's your right and I'm fine. However, while you live your life, don't forget my right to live my own.

    I don't care if you're homosexual. I'll probably never know if you have an abortion of if you pop pills in your apartment. That said I'll never encourage or even endorse these actions. What happened to letting people live their own lives? Obviously, there are some cases where the law needs to intervene, but there's over 300 million people in this country. Everyone has their own priorities and their own goals. Let people lead their own lives, even if that life involves disagreeing with you.

    I don't make posts that require a genuine introspection of my beliefs often. But this is important. Believe what you want. I'll believe what I want. But these days, it seems that people have grown too attached to their beliefs. Passion is important, but the ability to engage with "the other side" with a level head requires a certain level of detachment. If you really want to make society better, allow for disagreement.
     
  17. Nemrut

    Nemrut The Black Mage ~ Prestige ~

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    That article didn't say that Gen Z is more conservative, it clearly said that most of the Gen Z kids agreed with most of the progressive values but were unwilling to subscribe to either party at this point, which is fair. Also given the fact that conservative parties are most certainly not on board with many of the progressive values the kids are okay with, don't see how you can claim the right will win them over just because they aren't willing say they are democrats. Seems like they would be even less likely to go republican, going from just that data, what with the greater incompatibility there.

    And as expressed in this thread, while I do agree that pragmatically speaking, it might yield higher results by treating people with kindness and try to win them over that way by coddling them and not making them think about the fact they voted for and enabled anti-LGBTQ policies, I do find it a tall order to put this burden on the very people they are acting against. To say to them that we need friendship and kindness and tolerance in the face of people who treat them so badly or in the "best" case don't care if they get shit on feels rather brazen tbh.

    We had a similar discussion a year or so ago with the democrat and republican divide and it is the same problem here. It is not really on both sides to behave better. One side is objectively in the wrong and way worse and they need to be the ones to make the first steps. Which a large portion of the GOP leadership they were unwilling to do in the last two decades. I still find it baffling that you keep saying "both sides need to meet in the middle" when the Democrats spend such a long time trying to find the middle ground and appease the Republicans and they never moved an inch. So to keep saying "be nicer" to democrats, (or LGBTQ people or those who want to do something about climate change or who want to stop the wars that were based on lies) is for me virtually indistinguishable from saying "give up". Because unless there is a drastic, interior change in the GOP/republicans/conservative side, niceness is not going to matter. It's really up to the conservatives there to steer this in a more productive direction and that includes admitting how wrong they were on a lot of things. But as long as they perceive scientific truth as a personal attack, I don't really see how that is possible.
     
  18. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I'm just going to cherry pick this one bit to respond to, because we're clearly talking at cross purposes on everything else.

    The article you linked, and various other pieces of media I've read on this subject, say that whilst gen Z is self identifying as more conservative than Millennials, their actual positions on various policy areas are very much not in line with the GOP. They're never going to (speaking in broad strokes here) vote for the GOP until they change their positions on climate change, science, gun control, racial inequality, and drugs. They're also going to struggle to justify to themselves voting for a Dem because of issues they have with that party. But the GOP isn't going to be able to change to welcome in gen Z voters without losing their older voters. So I don't think that the right is going to "continue to win" as you put it, not until the definition of "the right" changes to include a lot of policy positions that the left would be happy to see put in place as well.

    100% this. This is exactly how I feel.
     
  19. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    The lack of understanding in this thread is exactly why Trump will win another term (barring impeachment) and the demogogues on the right will continue to gain power.

    Of course the same is true of the Republicans. Their lack of understanding of the left is exactly why AOC and her ilk will continue to gain power on the left.

    It's a cycle. I guess it was too much to ask to ask y'all break it.

    I'm done for now.

    Perhap's Vlad's scorched earth policy was more right on...
     
  20. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    @Nemrut

    You're conflating "be polite" with "give up". That's not what Arth is saying. He said that you can be polite while fighting for what you want. He's saying that kindness is a virtue and not something you abandon when politics doesn't go your way. He's saying that instead of saying: "climate change is real and you're a fucking backwater idiot" he'd like you to say: "climate change is real and let me show you data and let's talk", and when you say the second thing, to not abandon that approach in favor of the first when the person you talk to rejects your argument.

    You seem to treat politeness as a tool in a political struggle, while Arth (again, @Arthellion correct me if I'm putting the wrong words in your mouth) treats it as its own good thing and that the fact that some people treat it as a tool contributed to the rise of Trump. It's like if you (general you) thought stealing was wrong today but whatevs tomorrow because it suits your political goal and because the other side are shitheads, when Arth says that stealing is wrong any day, and that's his stance regardless of what underhanded tactics his opponents might use.

    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with Arth here, I'm just trying to clarify to folks what I think they're missing about his position.
     
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