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Civility in the US political discourse and identity politics

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Arthellion, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    @Innomine, Fair, but I think then we are dealing less with the actual argument here and more about basic beliefs/value systems. Which I find somewhat fruitless to debate.

    I'd argue you don't find those beliefs about God "sane" because you yourself don't believe in God and therefore don't understand all of the factors/character traits etc about God that make such an argument highly rational. So, it's kinda fruitless to debate it.

    I respect your views on these things even if I disagree.

    Well, because I do conform to the norms and expectations of the country insofar as they are compatible with Scripture. Thankfully, the USA has not required that I perform abortions myself, outlawed heterosexual marriage, or outlawed evangelism. In which case, I would be required to break the laws of the USA. So...what makes mine different is that Biblical values are, in the important areas, compatible with US values. If that changed, I'd likely view it as my ethical responsibility to change my views ormove to a country that does hold my current views.

    And it is appreciated. Growth is impossible unless one is challenged. I don't believe my viewpoint is perfect and I would agree with you in the sense that I don't have a perfect understanding of this argument being posited. It is one I am still strengthening, developing, and working through. The differering views in this thread helps with that. Points out other areas where I'm wrong, and allows me to grow.

    For example @Mordecai Mentioning privelege is a good point. How much of this argument comes from my own biases verses logical and structured assumptions? I'd say most is that latter, but its good to challenge and ask what weak points in the argument exist because of those priveleges and biases.
     
  2. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Art, what happens when you're summoned before to pearly gates and have to explain why evil ran rampant and good men stood by and did nothing?

    Imagine the dialogue:

    "I trusted in you to make sure Good would win."

    "And I trusted in you. And you did nothing."
     
  3. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Well firstly, God doesn't trust in humanity. That fails to understand the Gospel. I am an evil man. I am the evil running rampant throughout this world. I'm not better than Trump, Neonazis, antifa, socialists, whatever evil group you want to name. I am depraved and fundamentally not good. I am incapable of doing anything good.

    God knows this and saved me anyways. That's the Gospel. God saving broken, messed up human beings who are not good.

    So...the setting would go more like this...

    "I trusted you to save me."

    "And I did."
     
  4. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    Two things of note. God damn I hate this men are evil thing. I shouldn't have to live my life in a permanent state of guilt and penance. It's more of a difference of ideals but that really sounds terrible.

    The second thing is that it is very telling that you would put Neonazis and antifa in the same line. I know from your words you don't see them at the same level of evil but the fact that attempting to counter the Nazi's to hard makes you evil.

    Edit

    It just seems like White Privilege in action. Why care about what the Neonazis do? Someone else will take care of them and even then I'm fine. I'm better than fine in fact! I'm 'moral'.
     
  5. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    That's the thing. Because I have been saved, I -don't- live my life in a state of guilt and penance. I was once evil. Now I am not. It's not anything I have to do or become. It's not laws I have to obey. I simply just have to be myself.

    Honestly in my head I put the first two as what conservatives would say. And the second two as what liberals would say. So not an approximation of my own values.

    Secondly, RE: I fail to understand how you think I'm arguing to do nothing. It is of vital importance that today, right now, the good thing to do is condemn neonazis for their actions and do our best to combat those viewpoints here in this moment.
     
  6. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Horseshit. I didn't get raised going to church every week to hear anything like that. What happened to God making man in his image? What happened to the value of Good Works?

    This sounds a lot more like self-flagellation and self-hatred and a theological position. And you're clearly nothing like a Trumpist or a Neonazi.

    Then no choice you could ever make in the future or present would be good, either, which is totally incoherent from anything else you've said.

    I seem to remember a part where the bad people are cursed to eternal damnation.

    "I gave you the tools to save others. And you spat on them."
    --- Post automerged ---
    Yuck, you're one of those.
     
  7. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    @Arthellion I hope the view from your ivory tower is nice.

    Everything you're saying tells me that you don't understand what evil is. That you've never encountered the real world, where you face problems, and difficulties, and have to actually deal with them. It must be nice to be so absolutely naive as to think that the position you're espousing here makes any sense in the real world.
     
  8. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    And yet, now you say you've got a good goal to fight against.
     
  9. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Well your church was wrong on the ramifications of in His Image and Good works. Sorry.

    Maybe read the New Testament for yourself? Without the pharisees whispering in your ears? Most churches in America suck and are litterally like the people who crucified Jesus in their understanding of God/theology. So...I'm very hesitant to trust the teachings of most Churches in the USA.

    I'd also suggest Tim Keller's the prodigal God.

    I appreciate the compliment :)

    Really only going to address those two things.

    Gotta help fiancee with homework, but love the convo. Y'all have some great insights and I appreciate the challenges. Will do some more thinking and reworking of this viewpoint. :)
     
  10. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Lol, they're Catholic, they'd just call you a heretic.
     
  11. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Dirty, fucking papists. :p
     
  12. Nazgus

    Nazgus Chief Warlock DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    I've been struggling a lot with this thread because it felt like both sides had a lot of good points and I couldn't fully figure out where I stood.

    I do believe that being civil is necessary for a functioning society. That you're better off taking the high road whenever possible, and that sinking to their level makes you, well, not as bad as they are maybe, but definitely lesser than you were.

    The thing is, I think @Mordecai managed to nail it when he called out your privilege @Arthellion, and to be fair, he called mine out by association. Civility and courtesy are only effective weapons when being wielded by someone who cares about what you, or someone else watching, will think of them by comparison. And since the Right has spent the past near-century painting us all as Godless heathens who hate America, I don't think they give a shit. And everyone whose opinion they care about doesn't give a shit either. If nothing else, then the past three years should've made that abundantly clear.

    So yeah, as a white Mexican coming from a wealthy family, I was raised on those things, because the system worked for us, as much as it does for anyone in Mexico at any rate. Definitely kept working for me once I moved to the States, being white and straight give you the ability to remain unaffected for the most part. But I'm not convinced that they have value in of themselves on the level you think they do (and I used to do). For one on one interactions with reasonable people willing to have that conversation, then sure, you can give that a shot and get better results than screaming in their face.

    But the problem with saying "just ignore" the neo nazis and the homophobes, is that they're not ignoring you. Or well, they are ignoring you, and me, but not those they target with their hate. And they're not gonna go away if no one pays them attention, because people do pay them attention. And every time they see them marching in the open with no consequences they grow to see their ideas as more acceptable.

    And that's where the privilege comes in. You and I get to ignore it all if we want, and tell ourselves we're doing our best to just 'be good' in our own daily lives because we happen to fit their ideals of what is allowed to exist. But there's a lot of other people who don't, and if you're honest about wanting to do good in the world, and be a good person, then I don't know how helping them in every way you can doesn't come as a requirement.

    That's why counterprotests are so important, because they show that we don't accept those views as a society. But that's also why the rest of it is so important. Since this all started there's been multiple instances of people taking action against those who espouse those views. There've been multiple people who got identified by the internet and fired from their jobs. Cloud Flare effectively took the Daily Stormer off the internet after withdrawing their Denial-of-Service protection. And I don't see how you can make the argument that those actions didn't do more to make those views unacceptable in society than all the cheeks turned in the world.

    In this, I have to side with a professor of mine, who said that the fix to the hate we see in our society is simple: Make racists afraid again. And while we're at it, make the rest of their bigot friends afraid too.

    ---

    As a separate note, I'll echo that I really appreciate the fact that we can have this conversation, as that you engage in good faith, even though I often find your positions baffling or infuriating in turn.
     
  13. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Hey, it's their religion, they get to call the shots. Hahaha
     
  14. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    The biggest thing I got from this thread is yet another confirmation that religion makes no sense and it would do the world good to just get rid of it already.

    Politics is dirty business and even if you want to achieve good things, you'll have to play dirty sometimes, because politics has to do with running society, which necessarily bestows power upon people, and power corrupts--such is its nature. I have to agree with @Darth_Revan. Winning is what matters. It's the only way you get to do good things on a big enough scale to make a difference. I could power my house with a stationary bike, and it wouldn't matter zilch if my neighbor insisted on heating his by burning old tires. And when I agree with DR, you know you're wrong.

    Hell, I'll give you an example from real life. I swear to God (hehe) I'm not making this up. I visited family today, we had a bonfire and roasted sausages and stew and all that good stuff. There's conversation, jokes, someone mentioned my cousin's recent wedding and talking turned to the younger generation present (myself, my sister, two cousins), I cracked a joke about gay marriage and how behind we are on that subject in this country and instantly one of my uncles shut me down with typical boomer shit: I don't know anything because I'm young so shut the fuck up (though not in these exact words). I could tell he was personally offended.

    My point is, some people will not have a discussion, no matter how civil or casual, and we just have to wait for them to die.
     
  15. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Okay, folks, Scott agrees with me. We in. Thread over, go home.
     
  16. Innomine

    Innomine Headmaster ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    This is one of the things of most value that we could loose. Don't forget, if we end up authoritarian, it'll be quite possible/easy to link these online posts to our real life identities, and then use that to silence us.

    Problem is, 84% of the worlds population believes in some form of god. Don't think it's realistic to get rid of them, gonna have to figure out a way to work with them somehow.

    I do agree with you on the basis of generational change though. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. While there are obvious exceptions to this rule, one of the reasons the swings in ideological change tend to be every 40-50 years is due to this generational change (imo at least).

    @Arthellion I agree with you re:value systems. I think we're at the limit of a useful conversation on these topics tbh. I think what I mentioned are the root causes of our disagreement, and everything else flows from there.
     
  17. Farhial

    Farhial First Year

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    Is this not just a restatement of the trolley problem? "I see the approach of two evils in this world and have the ability to affect the outcome." And you step back and say that the outcome is not certain, or how could I, as a fallible human predict or presume to know what good or evil might result from me taking action, so I'll let the universe decide. Perhaps you'd say that the worth of a human life is infinite, immeasurable, and so to make that decision without having the certainty of an omnipotent god is impossible. But through the rational, logical abilities humans possess, (abilities you may claim are given to us by god,) the abilities by which Aquinas wrote his Summa and you built your moral foundations, we have also ordered and sized infinities, found that some are larger and some are smaller, and so you can say, "yes, I do not know how great a good or how great an evil may result if I decide to act here," but by refusing to act, immeasurable though one might be, a larger number of human lives and the infinite possibilities they entail have been lost. A greater loss has occurred through inaction.

    The same rational mind that allows us to make these distinctions also allow us to see when and where we might act so as to do good. As flawed as we are, there is no higher being required to make reasonable decisions about events and their possible outcomes. The best of these minds have told us that our actions are resulting in a climate that will kill and displace hundreds of millions, and of the two candidates running, one had a plan to address that, while one proposed making it worse. In a system where a vote for the reasonably greater evil could be cancelled out by a vote for the lesser evil, and, according to the best minds we have working within the most powerful predictive system we have, hundreds of millions of innocent lives are on the line, why would you choose the action that empowers the greater evil?

    And consider that by acting kindly to one group, you act unkindly to others. Jesus was certainly not kind to the money changers when he overturned their table and told them to leave, but did his actions on the whole not have a greater effect for good, even though he broke with decorum and acted rudely? Should a christian not try to act as Jesus did?
     
  18. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    I think my biggest issue with @Arthellion 's argument is that I dont believe we should be civil to people whose opinions come solely from ignorance, bigotry, and hatred.

    Certainly, we shouldn't inflict violence upon people whose opinions we find abhorrent but why should we, especially those of us who personally feel the effect of these peoples rhetoric on policy issues, be civil to people who know nothing of civility? Jesus, Ghandi, and MLK preached for civility amongst all and all that but we aren't them. We're everyday average citizens who have to hear this bullshit and then get told we have to be civil to the people preaching for our death.

    People who make arguments similar to Art are a big part of the problem IMO. If you admonish people for being uncivil as a reaction to hateful rhetoric but ignore the people who scream that shit to the sky because they're hopeless or truly lost or whatever, then all you're doing is giving the cunts a weapon to use against those they hate.

    "You should be civil while we stand on the curb screaming into a megaphone about how you should die and will burn for eternity. Even the moderate thinks so, see?"
     
  19. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Question: what makes you think anyone is ignoring that? Is there someone here preaching such that's going ignored? Honest question, who here would he have to talk to that's from the right and needs to learn respect for our shared humanity and the inalienable rights that come with it?

    The discussion is about the left because that's the only discussion to be had; literally everyone here agrees that Gingrich led the right right off the deep end back in the 90s and they desperately need to get their shit together before the mess they made spirals even further out of control.

    The only point of contention is whether the left should stay out of it or contribute to the mess, and so that's what the discussion is about.
     
  20. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I condemn my right wing friends for this just as much as I’m calling it out on the left.

    I tell them to be kind. That even if they disagree with liberals, name calling is not the right way. Be kind.

    If it seems I’m somehow only talking to the left on their issues...it’s because DLP is liberal.

    I speak to the crowd I’m with.

    Hatred only breeds hatred. If people continue in this,regardless of their politics, they are all guilty of the same thing.
     
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