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Communism vs capitilism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Cupspeaker, May 29, 2006.

  1. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Incorrect. It was, or rather is, a way of trading your own surplus for the surplus of others, therefore forfilling what you have a defiency in.

    The idea of specialisation was first put forward (or first formally put forward) but Adam Smith, the famous economist.

    The principle of specialisation shows that far more gets done when everyone produces only what they're best at producing and then trades their surplus for the surplus of others. This is both done on the domestic scale and on the international scale.
     
  2. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Actually archeologically speaking I'm right. I never said anything about the economy.
    Besides no one here has a time machine to prove it, most of these are theories.
     
  3. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    On what do you base this :headshot: statement?
     
  4. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Errr during my archeology diploma.
    Just something that was taught on my course.

    Any way I thought this was supposed to be a discussion. Not linch the new girl because she doesn't agree with you.
    I haven't knocked anyone and some of the things people were saying were pretty personal.
    Just coz I don't agree with you doesn't mean you should bash me.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  5. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Do you agree with that? If so, why? Does it make sense to you? Do you believe the ancient and not-so-ancient societies that introduced money were content?

    *feels like Athenakitty*
     
  6. Necrule Paen

    Necrule Paen DLP Elite DLP Supporter

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    Actually she is sort of right. Money came about for two reasons, one is that no one around you can give you anything you don't already have, another is that you don't have anything that the person who has what you want doesn't already have. Which is the same thing but at a different perspective. What

    Taure is talking about is barter and division of labor. Specialization is more the term you use when talking about industrialization.
     
  7. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    actually in ancient cultures money tended to be a sacred/ station thing.
    They didn't have such things as mints then after all.
    I mean the chinese where making coins 4000 years ago and they were mainly to show their status.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  8. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I'm more of the opinion that money is basically a tool for trading, invented simply to make trade easier. I do not see how lack of needs play in there.
     
  9. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Well if you didn't how would a piece of metal feed you or put clothes on your back. You have to consider when money first came in. When all people had to worry about was food, shelter and clothes. Money was just a status symbol.
     
  10. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I'm more going by the definition of money as a widely accepted medium "that can be exchanged for goods and services". If you use money as a status symbol, it's not really money, is it (if speaking of coins, meaning coins that are about worth what they are made of)? You could just as well have a hunk of gold or some jewellery as a status symbol.

    Money as an exchange tool however would be borne out of practicability. At some time, salt (or whatever it was) was a common exchange tool since it could be indefinetly stored. So it was, in a way, money.
     
  11. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    The money as a status symbol was pretty early in the history of coinage.
    With the salt thing it wasn't just salt. They used to get paid in all sorts of spices, the rarer being the better pay of course (it's where the word salary comes from).
    Pepper was worth a fair bit too. Also have you seen the price of saffron, somethings never change....sigh.
    i quite like saffron.
     
  12. Cupspeaker

    Cupspeaker Looked into the void

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    Today money is not used as a status symbol. It is used as things \"that can be exchanged for goods and services\" so I would have to agree with World over there.

    Wow, this thread has a truckloads of info. I am so gonna get an A on my essay.
     
  13. Dark Gogo

    Dark Gogo First Year

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    Are you so sure? Absolute power could change your life so drastically that you would actually think the dictator is king, think that life as you know it is best. You don't know what you would have felt like if you weren't opressed because you wouldn't know that you were opressed. Sure, you could tell that you don't have political freedom and that you don't have civil liberty, but you couldn't do a damn thing to stop the dictator. Yes, this is not possible to get so much power that you could control every aspect of life... therefore it is IDEAL. Not achievable... but conceivable.
     
  14. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Where did I mention division of labour? I am talking abot specialisation, which is far more broad. True, division of labour is one type of specialisation, but I was more refering to a larger scale than specialisation within a single firm.

    Take Japan for example, they specialise in producing technology. Then take, say, America, where there are a large amount of farms. Japan would not be able to feed itself, so they trade the surplus they have in technology, for America's surplus of food (I have no idea if Japan actually buys food from America, this is just an example). For this trade to happen effectively, money must be used as a medium.

    Barter could be used but for that you need a double coincidence of wants, which is very rare. So money evolved out of the barter system as a more effective means of excahnge.

    A good example of this would be post-WW1 Germany. They had an inflation rate so high that money became almost worthless - people had to wheel their wages back from work in wheelbarrows. In this situation, it happened that cigarettes became widely used as an accepted means of exchange - so we would then call cigarettes money.


    If you use 'money' as a status symbol, then it is no longer money, as it no longer fits the definition of what money is.
     
  15. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Have you read 1984? Most of the people in there are happy (both Proles and those working for the Party). Do you think they have a good life? Would you change your life for the ingorance and dependance they have? I sure wouldn't.

    Just because I can't stop something doesn't mean that it is good.

    I don't see why you would think a complete dictatorship would be good.

    @ Taure: cigarette money was used in Germany after WW2.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  16. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Really? I thought it was post WW1...I suppose it doesn't really matter which war it was after, the fact was that it happened.
     
  17. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    When I meant status I meant for the village/town/country aswell.
    Commodity money was exchanges but it took a while for actual currency. If you remember most countries/regions were at war half the time. It took some growling from various nations before they recognised eithers currency.
    Although money is almost obselete with the introduction of credit cards etc.
    Also Socialism is different to Communism.
    Socialism is done through revolution but after it would be democratic planning of economy. Important tings like food/shelter/clothes would be free for everyone but luxuries would be earned. With production being for need not profit you wouldn't have warehouses full of cars/goods just wasting.
     
  18. Dark Gogo

    Dark Gogo First Year

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    That was exactly the point of the story. At the end of the book, Winston believes that 2 and 2 make 4. The rest of the people believe in the government. It IS quite contradictory with the whole: "War is Peace..." But the people don't question. Winston and Julia are exceptions, but they are killed, they are opressed, they don't have a voice. The point was that they had sex to disobey the government for themselves, not for the whole. The people believed the government. Remember when the Party kept changing who their allys were? The people didn't question that the government was wrong, they believed them. And in regaurds to being happy: the people didn't know what happy was. Winston exemplifies, as a major theme, is the lack of feeling. Yes, he would like freedom from opression better than his current life... BUT he doesn't know what life would be like without the Party. He never, and neither does anyone else, tries to take over the Party. And happy; happy is being in a elated mood. SURE, it is a false sense of security when they are happy... BUT THEY DONT KNOW THAT! It will only hurt them when it is realized that they can have freedom. And I'm not saying that this is how life should be... I'm saying that the government would fuction if the people did NOT rebel; because they couldn't... hence TOTAL DICTATOTSHIP. But this is ideal. This totalitarian government could not be acheived. But once it was acheived, it could be very powerful.
     
  19. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Have any of you read George Orwells' Animal farm?
    That is based on the russian revolution and the beginnings of Stalinism.
    The animals represent different parts of the russian people with Boxer as the working class. Also the pig that disappears is supposed to be Trotsky, who as you all know was exiled and later killed.
    All of the original members of th communist party were killed, with the exception of Stalin.
     
  20. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Well, so do I ^^
    Anyway, just because it cannot be changed, doesn't mean it's ideal. I don't see how you could call it ideal. It may work, but rape can also be am mean of procreation. Doesn't mean it's good or ideal.

    @Litha Riddle:
    It is obvious that for you, money equals shiny little coins. The definition of money, however, is a generally accepted good used for trade, and it's importance isn't lessening in the slightest. What use is a credit card, if you have no money to back it up? What you have on your bank account is a form of money, even though it is only numbers to you. A cheque is a form of money as well. A status symbol, however, is not money, even if it is gold pressed into flat, round forms.
     
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