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Communism vs capitilism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Cupspeaker, May 29, 2006.

  1. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Still think capitalism is great.
    It looks like big business is going true to form.
     
  2. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    First of I apologise for the double post but I felt this was a good point on the substandards in the British education system.
    This is what capitalism gives us.
     
  3. Cupspeaker

    Cupspeaker Looked into the void

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    Don\'t countries need gold to back their money up? Or else their money would be useless. So when America prints more money without having the gold to back it up, their money value goes down. And when the money value is too down the money is worthless. Then it is not money anymore, but little trinkets.

    Getting back on topic: Capitilism helps people grow successful right? But then some people have to be failures for that, eh? Communism will then help make everyone equal, so nobody has to feel like a failure. Wouldn\'t it end big problems like rascism, poverty, starvation, etc...?
     
  4. UnholyWarlord

    UnholyWarlord Fourth Year

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    It dosen't work out like that in real life, Communsim is a great system in theroy. In execution it creates a new ruling class with powers and rights beyond the powers of The upper class now. Rascism is alive under any Goverment, poverty conutinues to exist, given there are always people who through the cracks. Starvation might or might not exist, depending on the Economic buying power of the goverment.
     
  5. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Actually, most currencies nowadays are not backed in gold. This so called "Fiat currency" derives its value from the fact that the government accepts it as valuable.

    Since 1995 the amount of US$ has doubled, but it hasn't lost its worth, has it? The loss of monetary worth (also called inflation ;)) is caused when the growth of the effective money in circulation is higher than the growth of the economy, ie the worth of goods and services. (This 'effective money' is not only influenced by the amount of currency, but also by the speed with which it is reused (how fast you spend the money you earn) and by the saving rate (how much of the money you earn you save).)

    Indeed, there would still be those that have to do things like menial labour like cleaning floors. But those would exist in a communistic society as well. Only there, they would have no chance to get out of that job. And, do you really want to be equal with that ugly unibrow guy that can't think worth crap and communicates with grunts?
     
  6. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Administrator Admin

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    If it keeps him from starving and dieing on a street? Yeah.
     
  7. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Just because you clean for a living doesn't mean your stupid.
    Due to the lack of jobs and biased hiring practises (he wasn't british) my friend who had a Phd in Electronic and electrical engineering was forced to work in a factory making pizzas.
    Just because you do a crappy job doesn't make you stupid.
    Besides your idea of Communism is Stalinism.
    Stalin warped the idea of communism to fit his dictatorship. If Saddam claimed Iraq was Capitalist would you accept that? No, you wouldn't because you would try to get a balanced view.
    The victor writes history so that he/she is right.
    When the Romans invaded Britain it wasn't called that by the tribes alraedy there. Same with the invasion of Alexandra, is it still called that?

    Asking a capitalist government about communism is the same as asking a Vegan how to cook lamb.
    If you're opposed to a system you don't promote a positive idea of it.
     
  8. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    You wouldn't have to have a communistic or totally socialistic system to achieve that. I sincerely doubt anyone in Germany is starving. We have a social security system that guarantees everybody a certain standard of living, including a place to live. Doesn't say we need everyone to be equal.

    I didn't mean that. I meant that there will always be people who have something better than others, be it job, friends, family. Total egalitarianism cannot work with the way humans are. This was what I wanted to inflect with my last question. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be equal to everyone else.

    Since my view of communism seems skewed, how would you define communism?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  9. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Capitalism is based on production for profit and not for social need. The working class creates new value but receives only a portion of that new value back as wages. The capitalists take the rest – the surplus. As a result, the working class collectively cannot afford to buy back all the goods it produces.


    Communism is essentially Scientific Socialism as defined my Karl Marx.
    Basically it is a process of struggle in which the working class will, through revolution, overthrough capitalism.
    It is a process which will allow the workers of the world to unite and plan a global economy. It is only through struggle will we be able to achieve a world where the needs of the many will be met. In todays world the 100 richest people/Companies own more money than the rest of the world combined.
    After revolution through councils and discussions production will be set to meet need not profit which will take away the need for surplus an excessive production.
    Every man, woman and child will be given the things that are needed to survive. These things will meet physical (Food, clothing, housing) and social (TV, radio, computers) needs.
    Because goods are being made for need rather than profit people will have shorter working lives so they will have more free time for other things.
    All education will be free as will health care.
    All the things that limit people from working/learning etc will be met through shared laundry/childcare/cafeterias. The responsibilities of the house will no longer be placed on one adult but a communal responsibility.
    If people want to marry partners can chose their names, giving the opurtunity to keep your surname if you choose.
    Everyone will be equal as in no one will be limited to jobs because of no discriminatory job laws.
    Basically what I'm getting at is that Communism is achieved through struggle and revolution.
    If the workers/youth/students united they would be able to self determine there own country/world. The world would essentially be a united federation of earth with true democratic control. Where if you think your council is corrupt you could call an election an choose another. All the major companies will be nationalised and open so that any signs of rot/corruption can be stopped.
    All aspects of society will be decided by a democratic process.
    You will be able to protest without the fear of riot police or terrorism laws (which are used against protesters in UK).
    Health care will be fully funded and accessable to all at the point of service ( no waiting in the corridor for your details to be processed).
    After all the kinks are sorted and people are devoloping that is what I essentially by communism.
    The Soviet Union was a Stalinist state not Communism/Socialism.
    If I haven't explained myself well please ask questions.
    Thanks,
    Litha
     
  10. Lynn

    Lynn First Year

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    I would like to add something.

    Communism, on paper, looks like it would be better than Capitalism. Although we all know, it is impossible for communism to work in reality because it would most likely cause mass corruption within the government.

    Communism - a small group of people working together for the good of the people which would equal less debate and quarreling.

    Capitalism - anyone and everyone doing their own thing which causes much quarreling because one person is selling something for more than its needed and you cant do anything about it (for example, gas).
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  11. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Hmm I think that does mainly comply with what I thought communism was...

    I seems that you are a proponent of communism. I can only say that I value meritocracy higher than total egalitarianism. I may be elitist, but mainly I'm simply better than most ;)

    And yeah, I seriously doubt communism would work.

    By the way, your sig irritates me to no end. You don't need to explain that phobia-joke. He who does not get it doesn't deserve to laugh. The "lol" probably aggrevates me the most
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  12. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Excuse me I am here discussing the pro's and con's of Capitalism and Communisn.
    I did not ask your opinion about my signature and I won't.
    I thought the rules were nothing personal. Well my sig is mine.
    If you can't debate without being personal then what's the point.
    I'm a Socialist and proud of it and have a different view of communism.
    If it wasn't for soldiers/people protesting the US would still be at war with vietnam. If it wasn't for people protesting the UK would not have fought Hitler.
    Although corrupt even the soldiers of Soviet Russia sacrifised alot of men to help in the war.
    If you want to poke fun at me send me a personal message and I will respond.
    If not then don't bash me.
    Also I can't talk to everyone here face to face so explained why I thought something was funny, not everyone knows what it means.
    Litha
     
  13. Cupspeaker

    Cupspeaker Looked into the void

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    Yes. Communism has been tried already by lots of countries. I don\'t think it was ever successful. Though China is coming close. They have a strong economy don\'t they?
     
  14. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I wasn't trying to humiliate you or poke fun at you and I wasn't being personal. I just wanted to use the opportunity to tell you what I think of that second sentence. I would say something about that new sentence but since you seem to be kind of a whimp, I'll abstain (now that was being personal).

    Anyway, I was just trying to wrap this up since we just seemed to be getting nowhere. So that is your view and this is mine.

    Though people protesting if the government doesn't do is something that they don't like is also part of a democracy, where all the power comes from the people.
     
  15. Myst

    Myst Headmaster

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    If Communism ever works out, it will be in 3,000,000 years when Humans somehow evolve past Greed and Jealousy as well as the thrist to be better then everyone.


    Since nobody will be alive then, we cant prove this although. I would say Capitalism works better now for todays Humans minds. It makes use of the natural Human thinking

    Communism does not, which is why it never works, because the Humans revert to acting natural. Always looks good on paper, as your proving here Litha, but it NEVER works in Reality.
     
  16. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    I didn't retaliate to begin with because it specifically says in the rules that you are not supposed to get personal.
    I happen to like this site a do not want to get personal.
    This is a debate thread is it not, then why should I not put forward my opinion. It's not the same as yours thus the debate. The purpose of debate is to help resolve issues aswell as solidify your own.
    In debate's at school and college do you resort to name calling instead of thinking.
    I'm sorry this topic bores you but it's something I find fascinating.
    Lastly my sig may not be the best, it's probably crud. But atleast I make my own.
    The bit I added was my protest in the spirit of democracy and socialism.
    I'm sorry if I've lowered this debate or even annoyed people, but if you can't defend your ideals then why are they better.
    You should have confidence in your ideas if you are going to debate them.
    One thing marx said applies here, question everything.
    Also one of my favorites is an ounce of experience is worth a tonne of theory.

    Also to reply to your comment of protest, not everyone in the world has that right.
    In some places you can be murdered by your government.
    Some of my fellow protesters have been arrested numerous times.
    In the 80's my Dad was beaten by the police for being a striking miner.
     
  17. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I'm in no way against you expressing your opinion. I don't see where I said that anywhere. I also don't see where anything I said could be taken as "don't stand up for your ideals".

    If you are not allowed to protest, than it's probably not a true democracy. A few weeks ago, we had a Nazi march here. Some 60 Nazis turned up, an far more than 1000 people who protested against them. Everyone was pretty outspoken against those Nazis, but they were still allowed to demonstrate. Why? It's a democratic right. England doesn't seem to be a true democracy, as the USSR wasn't a true communistic country.
     
  18. Litha Riddle

    Litha Riddle Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    This is what I consider personal.
    You were in no way general, and it was off topic.
    If you didn't agree with me say so.
    You may have edited it to make it smaller but it hurt.
    I was referred to this site by a link and thought it was somewhere I could express my slant on the world.
    Maybe not with the same views but with at least a shared opinion on Potterverse. If people are encouraged to come here then be insulted everytime then it's no longer fun.
    I find it sad that you can't even apologise.
    Yes my views on politics are different but we atleast share a common view on this site.
    For you to ignore that by being insulting hurts.
    I'm sorry if you think I'm a wimp but I've never met you and you insult me.
    If you had a problem with me you could atleast have sent a private message so a good debate would not be spoiled.
    Politics is an important issue and alot of people have strong views. I'm sorry if I've blown this out of proportion but I have said things that may have offended but apologised.

    I just don't care enough to keep raking this issue over so if you don't want to debate that's ok.
    Litha
     
  19. Zevrillion

    Zevrillion Founder Retired Staff

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    I don't think any country have been coming close to communism. The leaders have only used the idea of communism to get the working class on their side.

    I am for the goal of communism, but not the means to get there. You should use democracy to get there, not violence. If I am not mistaken, I thought that was the difference between Socialism and Communism.

    I don't think people need profit to be happy and work. Look at all the fanfiction writers. There is no profit in writing fanfiction, but neither less countless of hours are put into it. And most people are anonymous too.

    My belief is that every human should start with the same opportunities in life. What you do from there is up to you, but you should not have a disadvantage if your parents are poor so you can’t afford an education or you get loans for the rest of your life.

    You should get free healthcare, you shouldn’t be denied the best available hospital because some 20 year old women with rich parent wants to get bigger breasts.

    I believe societies resources should be used to help the majority of its inhabitants.

    For this to be realized, school, healthcare… must be nationalized.

    But this doesn’t have to also imply that some government official comes to your house like a Borg drone and tell you “3 456 178 of 7 245 988, your job is to clean toilet 3B6 8C5, you will comply or be moved to our recreation facilities in Siberia”.

    What is right and what is wrong in a society is to a big extent defined by the sociological culture, and looking at history, our culture and paradigms have change a lot. So I don’t think it impossible to democratic change our culture in a span of a hundred year to a culture that resembles the one in Star Trek.

    They still have there freedom to choose what they want. Do I want to be a Starfleet captain or something else?


    That is what I believe should be the goal; the final state of communism and a little bit of free market capitalism. And because of this I am more to the left side in politics, but what is left and right depends on what country you are in so let’s say I am more toward socialism.


    1: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets
     
  20. Ryuu Ken

    Ryuu Ken Second Year

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    Meh, Litha, now you're tossing all of us on one big pile. I for one enjoy a good debate, although I rarely voice my opinion. The problem with debating is that you offer your opinion, and not everybody may agree with it. Too bad for them. Thing is, although I must admit that what was said about your sig could surely be seen as a personal attack and experienced as one, you must also realise that we don't know a lot about you, just as you don't know anything about me. Because of this lack of knowledge we might accidentally say something that offends or hurts a person.

    An example, my internet name used to be Tsunami. I changed it after two people on a forum told me they were hurt by the name. It wasn't on purpose, but it did hurt them. Likewise I try not to make fun of members, much as I'd like to, as it could be seen in the wrong context.

    Conclusion, some personal attacks may not be meant as such. That's all I want to say about this.

    Back on topic, I personally think that a communism as it was meant to be, a philosphy, is as close to utopia as we can get. Although I must immediately add that, cynical as I am, I doubt if we will ever reach such a way of life. I don't think communism as it was used in Russia and China is how it was meant to be, nor was it very effective in my opinion. It was just a way to establish a dictatorship and talk it right.
     
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