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Discrimination Today

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Oment, May 27, 2018.

  1. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Putin's Puppet. Completely independent GOP lawmaker speaks out on the topic of homeowners and selling to LGBTQ people.

    I think I'm going to need a quick and dirty on US real estate deals, because I'm struggling to understand. Is this referring to cases where a prospective deal has been made - agreed on price and everything - only to be cancelled after finding out that the buyers are LGBTQ? I'm assuming this is prior to any contract being signed agreeing to the sale, then, but wouldn't backing out of the agreement be legal without a reason, then? A douche move, for sure, but if there's nothing on paper yet...

    Like I said, a quick and dirty would be appreciated.

    In the political arena, this is going to go over extremely well in CA, I can tell.
     
  2. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    The article you quoted actually goes into the relevant laws further down: basically, you can't refuse sell/break off negotiations because the person is part of a protected class (race, religion, gender, disability, marital/family status, and increasingly LGBTQ).

    Naturally, enforcement of the law/proving discrimination has pretty much always been a real difficult issue, given that it's very hard to prove intent. Unless someone's so massive prejudiced that they have to blow up about it they'd probably just find a good enough cover to maintain plausible deniability for breaking off negotiations. Why say "I don't sell to homosexuals" when you could just say "Sorry, I got a better offer from someone else. Best of luck." and send them on their way with much less drama.
     
  3. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    I read that - that's part of why it's so boggling to me. If you're stupid enough to actually say that, then I have to wonder how you got the money to own a home (especially in OC!) in the first place.
     
  4. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Well, there are still folks on the right who aren't wild about the Civil Rights Act being a thing and want to bring back segregation, so it's sadly not shocking.
     
  5. Nazgus

    Nazgus Minister of Magic

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    That implies that segregation was ever fully dealt with though. Jim Crow may be dead, but the country is far from desegregated.
     
  6. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    No idea where you're getting that from, or how it's relevant. The point I was making was that there are people people want to bring back legally mandated/endorsed segregation or undo the Civil Rights Act. Sure, you can still do plenty of de-facto segregation if you want to be sneaky about it, but some folks really want to just remove all pretense and put up a sign on the front door saying "No N*ggers or F*gs allowed."
     
  7. Nazgus

    Nazgus Minister of Magic

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    Biggest ones would be schools and housing.

    Reason I found it relevant is that if we still have significant de-facto segregation then it's not really surprising that there's people who'd like to go all the way back.
     
  8. Arthellion

    Arthellion Supreme Mugwump

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    The issue of unofficial segregation is a wealth issue more than a racism issue. The historical background and origin of it is definitely rooted in racism, but the perpetuation is lack of wealth to move into better neighborhoods and school districts.

    There might be, at most, two people I know who would begrudge a black family gaining the wealth necessary to move to a more affluent neighborhood and they are both over sixty.

    In one of my classes we discussed research that showed that the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be racist.

    Poor whites see blacks “taking from them” while poor blacks see it as the “white man’s oppression.”
     
  9. Agayek

    Agayek Prisoner DLP Supporter

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    As a general rule in the modern US (which, yes, does mean there are exceptions in places), race/gender/etc is largely irrelevant. What's important is affluence; if you have money, you do well and continue to make more money, if you don't, you're fucked.
     
  10. Zennith

    Zennith Pebble Wrestler Prestige

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    That's really not true at all.
     
  11. Arthellion

    Arthellion Supreme Mugwump

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    Explain how it’s not?

    In a choice between a person dressed professionally vs a person dressed less professionally during the interview it’s shown that interviewers favor the person with better clothes (all things being equal on resume) regardless of race or gender.

    While baby boomer still has some of the sexism/racism, education and our society have condemned discrimination for those things.

    What does influence success is wealth. If your parents had the wealth you are ok

    Take a poor white man and he will have generally the same skills as the poor black man. A black man growing up in wealth has the same skills as a white man growing up in wealth. All things being equal An employer is more likely to hire the wealthy over the poor because of better skills.

    Now the choice between poor white and poor black? Employers are penalized for choosing the white over the black. So, aside from affirmative action, wealth matters more. Which is the whole purpose of AA, to provide minorities more access to wealth.
     
  12. Nazgus

    Nazgus Minister of Magic

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    There was a generational study that came out recently that showed that race most certainly still plays a part in upward mobility. Here's the big idea from the summary, and a link to the full thing.
    Even when blacks manage to accumulate wealth, it's far less likely that their children will reach the same heights as they did when compared to whites.

    Little hard to insist that it's all about wealth and class when they get shoved out of the upper echelons within a generation of getting there.
     
  13. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Not to mention money just gives a lot more tools for dealing with racism or anything else that comes up.

    A poor black man who gets told point-blank "I'm not hiring you because you're a n*gger" is probably just going to shrug and move on. After all, who wants to work for an asshole like that anyway? Compare that to a black man who can afford to hire a good lawyer to rake that company over the coals with an anti-discrimination lawsuit.

    Granted, the fact that poverty and affluence is often influenced by race muddies the waters considerably. Frex, showing up to a job interview speaking "ebonics" rather than "proper English" would probably give the impression of being poor and uneducated to quite a few people.
     
  14. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Tell that to private sector women systemically making less money than their male counterparts, bro.

    Or latino men who go to interview at their local Wells Fargo branch for that open loan officer position and get told they aren't "a good fit for the position" despite having a Master's in finance.
     
  15. Arthellion

    Arthellion Supreme Mugwump

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    Never seen the latter happen. There are other reasons than race.

    A lot of times people like to blame their race when they themselves simply aren't good enough for the job. We need to get past the mindset that we, as people, are capable of anything and if we receive less or don't get the job its because of something at fault in the other person.

    As for the pay gap, most of those studies completely ignore things like years in the field, production, etc. The studies are not exhaustive. They rarely examine each individual candidate for production in comparison. In fact, when studies do consider that, they find its about equal.

    https://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

    More often than not, in todays' world where you get slapped with a lawsuit for discrimination; lesser pay occurs because that person just isn't as good at the job.

    Was their discrimination for many years? Yes, and because of that discrimination many minorities don't have the skills to deserve the job/pay. That needs to be fixed. How does that get fixed? With wealth.
     
  16. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    I don't think anyone's trying to claim that racism and sexism are completely gone. Just that we're not in the 1950's anymore, and sometimes the situation is a bit more complicated.

    To bring up your latino example, that non-answer for why he's getting turned down for a position could be a shield for racism. Or any one of a dozen non-racial factors. Maybe they didn't like how he answered one of the interview questions. Maybe one of the other applicants had more direct experience. And so on... Having a masters degree doesn't guarantee you a job in your chosen field.
     
  17. Peteks

    Peteks Order Member

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    It is somewhat hilarious that a white Christian assumably heterosexual male is insisting that there is no more discrimination in the job market.
     
  18. Arthellion

    Arthellion Supreme Mugwump

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    Respectfully, using identifiers to delegitimatize an argument is only a step above ad hominem attacks as a method of argumentation. Its simply another way of trying to silence dissent without actually backing up your argument.

    Does it occur? Yes. Did it occur widely for decades? Yes. Does it occur widely now? No. Education and morality have evolved to where people know that racism is unnacceptable.

    Are we still seeing the repercussions of that discrimination for decades? Yes. Minorities lack the skills necessary to be paid/earn the same as their white counterparts. That is, in general, not their fault. Because of past discrimination, there are repercussions.

    As opposed to making it a race thing, admit that people in lower incomes don't have the same upward mobility and work to change it. And yes, I do believe that it is the moral responsibilty of those who have wealth to use that wealth to help their fellow citizens gain the skills necessary to succeed.
     
  19. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity High Score: 3,994 Prestige DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    As a personal anecdote, my wife and I have virtually equivalent C.V.s (largely because we're our own most frequent collaborators), with very comparable bibliometrics (a few Nature articles apiece, twenty or so PRLs, 5000+ citations, 150 pubs, H-indices in the high 30s/low 40s) though she has more external accolades (Katherine Weimer award, Fellowships, etc.). I consistently made $10k-$15k/yr. more than she before going into management. (Now, it's more like $50k more.)
     
  20. Peteks

    Peteks Order Member

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    Oh, it is not only a race thing, wealth certainly plays a large role. So does gender and sexual orientation.

    You saying you don't know more than 2 people who would begrudge a black man the wealth to move to a better neighborhood is just an anecdote, and I'm rather sure most people who would begrudge that wouldn't drum up their opinions about it, at least before the age of Trump.

    Discrimination, racism and sexism are rife in your country, and in most other countries, mine included, even if it has certainly gotten better compared to like the 50's. Sticking your head in the sand and making it ONLY about wealth is pretty dishonest.

    And about the moral responsibility of the wealthy, that is all well and good, but when they are not willing to do exactly that, maybe education and healthcare and stuff that actually helps people succeed should be funded by the country instead of being left at the whims of the wealthy few who clearly don't share your moral compass.
     
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