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Expression and regulation online

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by ScottPress, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Pinging folks who participated in the latest batch of this discussion in the News thread, at this point it's come up often enough (and will likely continue to, given that it's admittely mostly my posts that spark those discussions) that I thought it deserves its own thread.

    @Arthellion @Agayek @VanRopen @Lindsey @Oment @awinarock @Darth_Revan @Mordecai @Quiddity @Innomine

    Start reading here for the full context of the thread. Link goes to a post in the News thread. This post is where the relevant context ends.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  2. Solfege

    Solfege Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Couldn't this just have gone in the Media thread?
     
  3. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Solfege I thought it was a specific enough topic for a separate thread.
     
  4. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    My stance is the same as it's always been. If you can say it to their face, you can say it online. End of story.

    I support regulation and making companies responsible for illegal activities performed on their platforms, much like the owner of a warehouse is legally responsible for folks using it to plan a robbery or whatever. But I draw the line at regulating legal interactions. If you're gonna regulate it over the internet, it's just as bad, if not worse, to be said in person, so that needs to be regulated too, and good luck trying to pass a law saying people can't be assholes to each other.
     
  5. Dystopian Destiny

    Dystopian Destiny Fourth Year

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    @Arthellion
    Your point is well made here.
    Was this neccessary? While I don't condone what bitmyfinger did, the callousness you express here must surely be against whatever philosophy you espouse.
     
  6. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Stenstyren calling people here old (I.e. not with the times) because we're not 15 year olds posting our every lunch on Snapchat is kinda weird. I rather think that DLP generally has a good grasp on these issues. And it might sound like Old People Talk but people have a point when they say that socializing exclusively online is bad for you. Coincidentally, parents who wash their hands off this for whatever reason (want to be cool parents or just can't be bothered to give a fuck) fail as parents.
     
  7. Arthellion

    Arthellion Dark Lord

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    Eh yeah I could have said that with more compassion. You’re right.
    It’s not just a matter of “just deal with it” though I do think people should have more resilience. On the other hand, being kind is the flip side. Just as much should be parenting kids not to be cyber bullies as resilience in the face of such bullying.

    I’m mainly using Bitmyfinger as a hypothetical example of how laws like these could affect DLP personally though.

    Kindness is not really a trait DLP values.
     
  8. Stenstyren

    Stenstyren Professor

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    Well, I would call myself very old as well when it comes to these issues (being 26 atm).
    The things is that you talk about online and offline as two separate things, as you say "socializing exclusively online is bad for you". @Agayek said they were "addicted to social media".
    I think this is looking at it from the wrong angle. It's not that they think social media is so fantastic, it's that social media is the only form of communication they use. If you are not on Snapchat, Instagram, Whatsapp or whatever, then how will you talk to you real-life friends? How will you know when a party is happening?

    To young kids today, disconnecting from social media is (in their mind) not an option. You can call them stupid for thinking that, but doesn't change how they feel.

    Parents obviously have a responsibility here, just wanted to say that "just turn off the internet" probably isn't an option (or this wouldn't be a problem).
     
  9. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Stenstyren You have a point. I remember being 15 and agonizing over the fact that my parents just don't fucking get it that you can't pause an online match. I think every generation will go through something like that. The devil's advocate here is that learning to deal when your net goes out for a day is part and parcel of growing up. A great majority of those kids will grow out of this. A few might slice their arms open. That's on them and their parents.
     
  10. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    Point of order: I think you're conflating "I'm gonna turn my phone off for a few hours" with "I'm never gonna log into Twitter again".

    The point I was getting at is that cyber-bullying isn't some inescapable thing; much like bullying at school ends when they go home, cyber-bullying ends when they leave the internet. If they need a reprieve they can just turn their phone off for the evening and, in the same way that they can simply not go to a social gathering that their bullies are at, they won't have to deal with any bullshit for that time.

    If you're gonna advocate for regulating cyber-bullying, at least be consistent with it and advocate for regulating bullying in general, since it's the same damn thing.
     
  11. Stenstyren

    Stenstyren Professor

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    Aha, then I understand you better!
    And, just to clarify, I do not want to regulate cyber-bullying. In my original post I mentioned that a way to combat these issues could be to mandate a certain level of responsiveness to reports made by users, such that you can take actions against people who are making threats etc. (which is illegal).

    I do agree with you that if it's legal to say face to face, it should be legal on the internet.
     
  12. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid Third Year

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    I agree with Agayek on the point of general overreach and free speech - but...

    I'm a teacher, I work within kid spheres constantly. Social media is tremendously omnipresent. I've subbed for a class, and at the start of the next period had 3 different kids come in and say, "I heard you are a pretty cool sub". They got that from within my class to within their class, neither of which are really allowing social media to flourish.

    In some respects being forced off social media entirely IS it's own form of bullying. It's like the kid who has to walk an extra mile by some odd back alley route to avoid running into his bullies physically. The very act of having to avoid them makes them feel the constant looming threat, no matter what they do. Being denied access to the primary forms of communication literally every other peer is using Even if they do shut down social media, everyone else they know is still getting the information. They will still pick up oblique references from everyone else who is on social media (friends or otherwise) in real life or online. In adolescent cyber bullying there is usually also a real world equivalent it's coupled with. Saying turn off your technology problem solved is like saying stay inside and burying your head in your sand to kid being bullied classically decades ago. The memes are pithy, but a shit real world solution and a nonanswer to the problem.

    It would be ludicrous if a kid came up to me, said he was bullied online, and I responded by taking his phone and turning off his computer, and said, "There. Problem solved." I don't agree with the the OP regulation, but embracing a solution of self-ostricization is most certainly not the way to go either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  13. Silirt

    Silirt Professor DLP Supporter

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    I mean the thing about cyberbullying is that we didn't hear about it before AOL and facebook, platforms where you use your name. What happened to 'don't give your name to anyone on the internet'? Without identities, the harassment that you can accomplish becomes significantly less targeted; the worst we could have done to bitmyfinger was make fun of was what he voluntarily provided, his stupid opinions. On facebook, the kids know about your heritage, family life, religion, sexual orientation, and so on because you go to school with them. A redeeming factor is that facebook has a blocking feature, that keeps people from sending you messages if you decide you don't like them.
     
  14. Sey

    Sey Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    I feel personally attacked.
     
  15. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Agreed with @Kevizoid.

    By telling a child being cyberbullied to turn off the computer, you are punishing them for something out of their control. Not only that, just because they aren't online doesn't mean people aren't leaving horrible messages. Cyber bullying isn't just private messages to the individual. It's usually far more public and far more brutal. People say far more hurtful things online than in person as they feel safer behind the screen.

    Plus, kids are creative fucks who find ways to make it where it really hurts, such as a creating a fake person that "likes" you. There was once a case at my high school where they did that, got him to send penis pictures and then they showed them to everyone, complete in meme format with jokes. The only reason any of this was punished was due to the bullies getting caught for CP.
     
  16. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Lindsey sounds like a failure of parenting to me. You can say that kids don't want to share with their parents, but that's a problem every parent has to deal with. Part of being a responsible parent is noticing stuff like this.

    You will never be able to eliminate all harmful behavior. It's a quixotic entertripse to try. What is practical is to tell the kids that yes, you can talk to your parents about this and ask for help.
     
  17. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    That's exactly how it was discovered. The parent found out somehow and went to the police.

    It still didn't stop the act from happening and the child from being traumatized. And the only reason the children were punished was because it was CP. If they had just sent pictures of the dude making fun of him without exposure, everything would have probably been pushed under the rug and continued.

    And honestly, I'm a bit sick how people always blame the parents and not the teenagers who know far better than to bully someone. My sister has been acting out for years and my mom has tried freaking everything in her power to help her out. But when you are a single mom, working a dead end job trying to make ends meet, and the school's teachers have too much to deal with than trying to save a child...

    When a teenager really wants to do something, they will find a way parents be damned. This is why parental controls on the internet rarely work. There are always ways to get around it. It would be hard as fuck for a parent to monitor what their children are doing online. This is why most want companies to help out. The companies have far more access than the parents do.
     
  18. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    Sure. It's not solving the problem, because the problem is kids being shitters to each other. All it is is something that a kid (or anyone, really) can do to get a reprieve for a bit. In exactly the same way as going home and/or avoiding socializing with their bullies does.

    The fundamental problem is that kids are assholes to each other. I have no idea what to do about that, but I do know that trying to brute-force legislate people into being nice to each other has historically worked poorly and been prone to abuse, so I'm gonna call out attempts to do so for being the reactionary knee-jerk that it is.
     
  19. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Lindsey. Okay. So hold people responsible. It's not Fb's fault and it's not a good reason for Internet regulation. When swatting happens, you hold the person who called the cops with fake info responsible, not the telecom company who provided the swatter with cell service.
     
  20. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    If you're gonna do that, why not hold said teenagers accountable for it? Why push the blame onto Facebook instead of the person actively doing it?
     
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