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Expression and regulation online

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by ScottPress, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid Third Year

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    I agree. As I said, I don't agree with the original solution. I just think we should also call out the "hurdur don't use social media then" shit as the people who say it clearly don't get it and aren't providing a practical solution either.
     
  2. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    While true, I do think that it would behoove people to get a reminder that they don't have to be actively social at all times and in all ways. I think it would be helpful for everyone, not just kids being bullied, to every so often take a break from the internet (especially social media) and the relentless press of social obligations and interactions that come from it.

    It's not particularly healthy to be "on" 24/7, and simply disengaging from people who are making you miserable, even if it's just for a few minutes, is a perfectly valid and rational response.

    It won't solve the problem in and of itself, I'm not sure any one thing can, but it'll help people be in much healthier mindsets.
     
  3. Silirt

    Silirt Professor DLP Supporter

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    I propose an alternative:
    facebouk.png
     
  4. Arthellion

    Arthellion Dark Lord

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    I mean, social media has been show to be addictive. Perhaps a ban on underage social media accounts? You must be 18 years of age or older to join?
     
  5. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    That faces an entirely different problem, such as "how the hell do you enforce that?".

    I'd like to see some scientific studies on the matter before supporting something like that as well, as I'm not convinced an age bar would help much at all. I can at least see the argument; If I ever have kids, I'd certainly do my best to make sure they weren't doing the social media thing until at least high school (read: no smart phones/tablets/etc and restricted computer time). But I'm far from sure it's an actual developmental thing that would necessitate government intervention.
     
  6. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Since I was tagged, Scott, I'll throw in my two cents.

    On the topic of cyberbullying, the solution is obvious and it's sites enforcing terms of service or their code of conduct if they have one.

    I will point out here that this sounds nice, but local PDs are understaffed and underfunded, and it's a tall order to ask them to police bullying on the web, which is vast and filled with companies who often refuse to disclose user identities, or claim the data is overseas, or claim it's anonymized, or aren't based in the legal jurisdiction of the court, etc.

    The distinction for me is between people doing things we don't like but which are nonetheless legal (speech) versus people who are using the sites to perpetuate a crime (child porn and terrorism). In those cases, I think sites have a responsibility to police their platforms, and if they don't, they should be punitively fined until they comply.

    The sites themselves opened themselves up to it when they agreed that CP had no place there and developed algorithms to purge it. If that was okay then, well why not for a host of other things? They admitted it was possible, now we're just arguing over degrees.

    /2c
     
  7. Arthellion

    Arthellion Dark Lord

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    It's a parental thing to be sure, and it faces the same issue as underage kids watching porn, but I'd argue websites should be far stricter beyond just "I am 18 years or older" click.

    You have to show your ID to purchase alcohol or cigarettes. The same should be required for social media or porn. Just my 2c.
     
  8. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    But you just made the very important distinction there. There's a world of difference between companies being responsible for crimes committed on their platform, and companies being legally accountable for people being assholes on their platforms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  9. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Using file hashes to stop CP uploads is an order of magnitude easier than trying to contextually analyze public and private communications to try and determine abuse. You can't just wiggle magic algorithms at human interaction and reliably do it. Siri and Google Assistant have trouble doing things more complex than checking the weather after billions invested. Natural language processing is still perhaps decades away from being able to algorithmically deal with cyberbullying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  10. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Yea, and? I never contested that, I'm interested in the criminal aspects.

    I think from a normative standpoint, sites ought to have a defined set of TOSs and whatnot and stick to it, but unless it's criminal activity, I'm only interested in it insofar as being a user with a point of advocacy, not as a matter of legal force.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Well, that's what human compliance people are for. Facebook already does this, it's not a huge leap.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  11. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Agreed on the point of pursuing criminal stuff through legal means. This whole discussion began because the UK govt wants to criminalize something so vaguely defined as "cyberbullying". That's entirely too broad and guaranteed to be abused.
     
  12. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    The scale of what you're proposing is impossible, even when we outsource that to third world nations to try and minimize costs.

    There are also over a billion messages on messenger daily. That's not counting Instagram, WhatsApp, or other competing platforms. It's completely untenable.
     
  13. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Tagging @Darth_Revan again here because this post belongs in this thread now, not the News thread. Like @Oment rightly pointed out, let's keep it here.

    Fine. Then again, your response to "is blowing up a wedding to kill one guy okay" is "the people at the wedding should know better than to invite the terrorist". I once asked how those people are supposed to know that someone at the Pentagon decided their uncle was a terrorist, to which you never replied. So forgive me if I take your advocacy for broadening govt power with a truckful of salt.

    Neither is the Internet.

    No. We've had examples of this happening. You may laugh at the Nazi pug guy, but this was a prime example of a govt using a broadly defined law ("gross offense") to punish a guy for making a fucking joke. It is indeed a slippery slope, and we're already slipping down it.
     
  14. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    I'm still need to read into the law more to have a stance on it but I would not ever trust examples like this.

    You can't get accurate results on something like suicide rates from that long ago. It's going to be underreported just due to the social stigma and lack of accurate reporting. It's like the rate of autism. It's gone up while the reports of 'the kids just not right' has gone down.
     
  15. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    It's their Gordian Knot, it's up to them to figure it out, and not just throw up their hands and whine. Tech companies bitch about heavy handed regulation, but they aren't exactly paragons of the sophisticated solution.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Ok, but some of their users are, so they need to tackle it. White supremacists, jihadists, etc. Gangs. Petty violence.

    If the vector is Facebook, then something needs to change at Facebook.

    I don't care about that stupid dog, or his idiot owner.
     
  16. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    To be clear: No one's actually disagreeing with you re: terrorists and child porn and the like, the parts that are effectively enforcing existing law in the digital space.

    People are specifically calling out the "cyberbullying" shit, the policing of all interpersonal interactions for "harmful behavior", as the problem.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  17. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Otoh you're throwing up your hands and failing to account for reality. AI moderators are not here yet, and they won't be for a while. Passing a law telling tech companies to "just do something about it" won't magically shit out the solution.

    No. If specific people are at fault, then go after specific people. Or ban guns, because guns were the vector of violence in every mass shooting ever. And ban syringes while you're at it, because that's how people shoot up.

    Silly examples? Yes, in response to your silly logic.

    Indeed. That's why you think that "slippery slope fallacy" is a valid argument in this case. Ignoring the thing that undermines your position. You say yourself, the owner was an idiot. I don't agree, but regardless, being an idiot isn't illegal, and yet he was prosecuted and found guilty for making a joke.
     
  18. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    And? So what? It's not my job to fix it, it's theirs. As a user, my only input is to say "Hey, this is a problem", and as a citizen, my only input is "Hey, make them fix this problem." The rest is their problem.

    This would be like if a company made a toaster which gives its owners electric shocks and then when people got made about it, they said it was a design flaw but they just wouldn't bother fixing it.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Sounds great, let's do it.

    Also sounds great, you don't need syringes for medical injections like insulin, so why do people who aren't doctors have them?
     
  19. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    To be more accurate, it would be as if a company made a toaster that shocked the user, and rubber/insulators didn't exist.

    It's not so much a design flaw as a fundamentally impossible to solve problem; the tools to do so simply aren't available anywhere.
     
  20. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Like Agayek said, literally no one is disagreeing with you about CP and terrorism and illegal shit like that. The core issue here is that the proposed UK regulation would include ill-defined things that don't specifically target stuff like CP or terrorism, but nebulous things like cyberbullying.

    And no one disagrees that social media needs to be able to moderate itself better, but it's just not possible. It sure would be nice to eliminate all fossil fuels tomorrow, but passing a law that mandates it doesn't make it remotely feasible. We have to operate within the realms of what's possible.

    The knee-jerk reaction to "Fb is failing children" and passing a law that enables the govt to be more draconian if it so chooses accomplishes nothing but enabling the govt to be more draconian if it so chooses, and there's no fucking way the govt won't use that new power at some point.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Now you just sound like a complete idiot. How far can we stretch this? Microwaved meals exist, no one actually needs knives in their kitchen. Just a plastic spork is enough. You know what, let's just put everyone in padded rooms. The end goal is just to keep people alive. Individual liberties don't matter.

    And you call me stupid. Pffft.
     
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