1. Hey Guest, welcome back to DLP

    As you can see, we've changed our look. We've migrated from vBulletin to the Xenforo forum system. There may be issues or missing functionality, if you find anything or have feedback, please check out the new Xenforo Migration Feedback forum.

    Our dark ("Dark Lord Potter") theme is under heavy development. We also have a light ("Light Lord Potter") theme for those happier with a light background and darker text.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Hey Guest! Are you any good at cooking? Got a favourite recipe that you love to cook or bring out to impress that special someone? Why not share it! A new forum called The Burrow has opened and it's all about homemaking!

Feminism 2017

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mordecai, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. Koalas

    Koalas Dark Lord DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,978
    Location:
    Toronto
    This is a sound good solution that would never function in the real world. A huge part of the hiring process past 'are they qualified' is 'can we stand working with them' which requires personal interaction. Thus all the personal bias' and gender differences come fully into play.
     
  2. Immet

    Immet Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    211
    I'm undecided on whether to call myself a feminist or not. The problem for me is that over the last few years the overwhelming majority of talk about feminism is things like "mansplaining" or "manspreading" or whatever behaviour is done by both sexes but someone wants to make an insult by adding "man" in front of it.

    Seriously, condescendingly explaining something to someone who already knows and spreading your things over multiple seats is done by both genders. How fucked up is society's view of men that something becomes an insult by adding "man" to it.

    Too often it appears that people are trying to hide misandry by complaining about "toxic masculinity" and how any way feminism ignores men's problems is just an example of how men are hurt by toxic masculinity too.

    As well as that, I think that the aim of legal equality of genders is so important that any criticism of feminism is seen as wrong and sexist. This along with any male's opinion, research, experience or actions being ignored as "mansplaining" means that people can't discuss ideas and issues and instead it gets bottled up until they can find an anonymous way to react e.g. many Trump voters who voted based on being against identity politics and Clinton being expected to win just to be the first female president.

    Really, the only feminist movement I can think of in the last few years that I've heard of that I can wholeheartedly support is getting rid of VAT on tampons, pads, etc. Did that ever happen?

    -------

    In terms of quotas, I think there is a natural vicious circle of people who hire/promote being more comfortable with people like them and so choosing people like them. This then leads to less diversity in CEOs and people with lots of experience, so fewer people apply or train to do those jobs, so people in power get more uncomfortable with different cultures/ethnicities/genders and so choose people like them to hire or promote.

    Without any external pressure from society or government this is going to happen, so something needed to be done. Quotas and laws about work discrimination were the best tool people could think of - things like anonymous applications would have been infeasible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  3. joshuafaramir

    joshuafaramir Unspeakable

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Elsewhere
    The only reason I am not a feminist is because the movement seems to now focus more on the emasculation of men rather than empowerment of women. It isn't the correct way to change the cultural mindset of a society that has always been patriarchal.
     
  4. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    The existence of certain internet groups has permanently erased any possibility of me being a feminist.

    That doesn't mean I disagree with some ideas of feminism though.

    I just think change in society shouldn't come in the form of special interest groups.
     
  5. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    357
    Location:
    Scotland
    High Score:
    3,485
    Out of curiosity, how do you think change will occur then? Doesn't society need some degree of pressure to be placed on it for change to take place? Without pressure there's no reason to change from the status quo.

    Without the Suffragette movement women may not have the vote, or if they did it would have come much later. And yes, I know there's the arguments about whether the Suffragette's slowed things down, but then we can easily say that there would have been no impetus to slow down without the Suffragists before them. So without the womens rights movement, women might not have the vote.

    Without the LGBT movement gay marriage likely wouldn't be a thing in as many places as it is, and homosexuality may still be outright illegal in places where its damn near accepted today.

    There needs to be some sort of movement to create change.
     
  6. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    Oh, I do agree that movements are quite useful. After all, I'm from a country where there was Solidarity.

    But movements =/= special interest groups.

    No social justice warrior, professional privilege checker or internet activist is getting a single penny from me. I doubt their honesty and intentions. And you'll notice that each time someone starts publicly debating hot-button issues like feminism, racial equality or others, there's a donate button or a Patreon link not too far away.
     
  7. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    357
    Location:
    Scotland
    High Score:
    3,485
    But is "feminism" a special interest group, or is it a movement that happens to contain some special interest groups?
     
  8. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    It used to be and largely still is a movement, that is slowly being hijacked by special interest groups.
     
  9. Solfege

    Solfege High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    Indeed. Most social progress, even in the empirical sciences, even with legal equalities achieved, comes from the older generations dying out or relieving their organizational posts, and their ingrained habits of mind with them.


    Gay marriage is an exception. Its victories were buttressed by the LGBT movement to be sure, but could not have been achieved so quickly with foundational activism alone. The '90s were a time where for various reasons people found themselves playing "six-degrees-of-separation" with gay individuals in their local communities. It was that, and the realization for many, that "these individuals I have known all my life, and who turn out to be gay, are decent and ordinary people (insofar as I define decent and ordinary) just like me," that heralded the inflection point of the 2000s.

    I wonder if the rise of the Internet had any significant role in playing with that... of course, the Internet now is a very different place from the Internet of the 2000s. But it was very formative for our generation.

    Still, there are obviously many communities that reject LGBT individuals (their definitions of decency and ordinariness of a rather different nature) and the high rates of homelessness haven't much been alleviated, I think.

    Internationally there have been structural advantages with America as thought leader... when HRC was at State, it was widely acknowledged that if you wanted to win brownie points with the US, show them you were as progressive as they were, you appointed qualified women to visible posts. Women who could serve as role models to the next generations. LGBT policy is harder, but I imagine similar sympathies have been popularized.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  10. coolname95

    coolname95 First Year

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2015
    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    Finland
    Feminism as a word already suggests focusing on women's issues. Whatever it is supposed to mean as a movement has become muddled; the word is now sort of like "socialism", where it has come to mean such a wide range of ideas that have little to do with the origin of the word that you can't really use it sensibly anymore.

    As for me, I don't want to call myself feminist for the above reason. Also, in my home country, I see women facing no discrimination by law. Men have responsibilities that women don't (conscription, ~6-12 months forced service), so actually it's men who are being discriminated against in Finnish law.
     
  11. Rhett

    Rhett Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    I believe in equal pay for equal work. It is as simple as that.
    There are some fields that equality shouldn't come into the equation. I hear a lot of actresses complain about pay, yet the fact is most blockbusters feature male stars and if one's movie earns more, one should rightly earn more. The flipside is modelling and porn. Women out-earn men by a huge degree, and deservedly. Women are simply interested in clothes more and most men who watch porn, watch it for the women.
    One equal rights movement that truly bugs me is the demand for female tennis players to be paid equal to men. They are not competing at an equal level, unlike policewomen, normal 9-5 workers, female politicians etc who essentially do the same job as men. and therefore, deserve equal pay!
    Another statistic that bugs me is that something like 97 percent of all divorce cases ends up with the man having to pay. There is a reason that MGTOW and such are getting more popular. This may be anecdotal evidence, but I get the feeling men are far less likely to be gold diggers than women, so that could be affecting that percentage.
    I have noticed that most successful women have no time for the extreme version of feminism, the so-called feminazis.
     
  12. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    659
    High Score:
    1,802
    Oh, men are definitely just as capable of it. I think it's more that there aren't as many wealthy single women who are good targets for that sort of thing.
     
  13. Immet

    Immet Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    211
    Something that's been going through my head thinking about this is that I get really frustrated at people changing the meaning of sexism and claiming men can't be the victim of sexism. Trying to say that institutional sexism against women is the definition of sexism is bullshit to me.

    Sexism in the dictionary, in common use and basic reality includes all prejudice and discrimination based solely on gender or sex. You can have useful conversations about institutional sexism, but insisting that it is the only form of sexism is condescending, naive, and flat out false.
     
  14. Rhett

    Rhett Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    No doubt you are right there. But, as a man, I think our egos get in the way of some of that. It leads to all that suffering in silence thing. I guess we could state is the nature of men. Slightly off-topic, men usually cheat merely for the sex, whereas women usually have another reason. I guess what I'm trying to say is that nurture has shaped men into being a certain way. Most men wouldn't hit a woman, although lately, I've been hearing more and more about men stating that if a woman wants equality and hits one of them, they'd hit back. Luckily I've never faced that situation.

    These issues are not merely black or white. They go beyond mere labels. But, sadly we seem to operate in a world where the 'ist/ism' labels are thrown around far too frequently.
     
  15. Damask

    Damask Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Messages:
    205
    I don't buy the whole package deal of feminism, as defined by academic feminism and grassroots activist groups and Tumblrites, what with the whole privilege theory and SJW-style approach to debate and censorship. Activists, who naturally tend to lean more extreme than the broader ideological group, may have a stricter definition for what passes as a feminist, but personal beliefs are a different matter entirely. I don't judge the progress of women's rights by the number of women in a variety of high-impact positions (like others have said, and I think that the horse is already dead by now, jobs belong to the most qualified), nor do I make a fuss when some article is published that states that men have X% more gray matter in this-or-that lobe of the brain. However...

    As long as the Red Pill subreddit has 200,000+ subscribers, and various far-right ideologies are on the rise, I still find value in calling myself a feminist. By their standards, everyone who doesn't want to reconcile the most misogynistic aspects of all cultures past and present counts as a feminist, and I'm not going to give them even the two inches of "yeah, I'm not sure I can get behind the women's rights movement anymore, it's gone too far", I've seen people who took that route and soon enough ended up frothing at the mouth about cucks and hamsters and repealing the 19th. Feminism has some good and bad parts, but let's recognise progress when we see it and use our brains to tell the insight from the nonsense, rather than our general ideological allegiances and herd instincts.

    Feminism often has some good points to raise about various cultural tidbits that often go unnoticed, yet affect our daily lives. I know that a lot of you have ended up associating that general category of issues with the worst kind of fabricated hysteria that came out of it, like "manspreading" and "microaggressions", but I think that there is such a thing as noticing this stuff and reacting proportionately to it, in a way that's actually likely to help. Just because an issue manifests itself through small and subtle behaviours and attitudes, doesn't mean that the appropriate response is to ignore it all of the time, and to refuse to interpret the little things.

    In my country at least, there's a lot of everyday douchebaggery going on. Things like:
    - Men shouting sexual or rude remarks at random women on the street or even groping them, just because she's there and he's bored and horny, that they wouldn't dare try on/around a guy, because the guy can and will punch back, while she's small and weak and often scared. So I guess it's fun for them to make her feel awful, then burst out into laughter if she makes some impotent gestures towards standing up for herself or expressing distress. This is not restricted to necessarily provocatively-dressed women, mind you, just any premenopausal woman who happens to be around the offenders.
    - Teachers hitting on underage students.
    - Girls struggling to participate to a discussion among the guys in a mixed-gender group and getting constantly left out (unless they succeed in out-guying the guys, because the only way to be taken seriously is to be boisterous and forceful).
    - Female public figures (even obviously decent and qualified people) getting discussed only in terms of how many cocks they had to suck to obtain their office.
    - Men who value women only for their attractiveness, yet delight in making fun of them for owning cosmetics and nice clothing.
    - Men often referring to women as cunts (without being mad at them, just because that's the only salient aspect of women to them).
    - Men who unnecessarily stir up shit (in traffic, at work, when out with friends, in a public institution, etc.) because they have something to prove about their masculinity.
    - Domestic violence being incredibly prevalent.
    - A general tendency to associate sex with women, although, objectively speaking, there's nothing inherently more sexual about women than about men. It's a very subtle and deep-seated thing, and nobody would even notice or talk about it if it weren't for feminism; I'd explain it better, but it would be a long explanation.
    - Not enough communication and empathy between genders, and stupid stereotypes being propagated left and right.

    Yes, men and women are equal under the law, but there's a whole lot of life outside of the legal sphere. No, you cannot legislate about this kind of stuff (or, in some cases, it's unenforceable), but that doesn't mean that there's nothing left to be done other than accepting things as they come.

    Maybe this stuff doesn't happen often enough to be very visible wherever you come from. People in my country generally have a perception of Westerners as more civilised than us. Maybe things do lean too far in the opposite direction, and injustices towards men are more prevalent. Or maybe everybody notices what they're biased to notice.

    The kind of change that took place in the 20th century in terms of gender roles and norms got the big issues out of the way (voting, owning property, access to various professions etc.), and now the smaller issues are what's left. This means that 21st century feminism necessarily has to adopt a less firebrand nature than its predecessor, and probably a lot of what are frequently perceived as the excesses of feminism owe themselves to the attempt of feminists to preserve that firebrand nature. And, of course, there's the natural bias of everybody to cheer for their identity group. But an important thing that feminism did was to pull these issues out of the usual context of bickering about your significant other and into the eye of academia and public debate. That's the only way for people's gender-related complaints to have a chance to be productive, and not just passive-aggressive. You may argue that feminism doesn't need to be front-and-centre in the public eye anymore, or that it needs a reform, but the people who clamour for its complete disappearance usually... don't hold the same views towards TheRedPill and fellow travellers, let's just say.
     
  16. Agayek

    Agayek Dark Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,953
    Not touching on the rest of your post here, but this bit in particular begs comment. It's really got nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with introversion vs extroversion. People who are naturally less talkative/boisterous tend to get talked over, full stop. That's just the nature of the human social dynamic. Gender has nothing to do with it, beyond how it informs the level of introversion in a particular person (something which I don't have any data to draw conclusions about).
     
  17. Solfege

    Solfege High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    Change "discussion" to business meet.

    It has everything to do with gender when comments the women make are sidelined or only heard when a man repeats a woman's suggestion (and is given credit). Also when typically older, more established men in the room refer to their women colleagues as "sweetie," "honey."

    Again, not intentional prejudice, not here in the West. Just habits of thought. Women have it worse trying to maintain professional credibility.

    More talkative/boisterous women are easily characterized as "chatty" with some element of airhead or alternately "bossy" depending on their position... "pushy" and "unpleasant to work with" are on the coin flip. There's a line to be struck with a far thinner margin than any man who wants to convey confidence and competence.

    It's also the natural conversational dynamics of any "in-group," in this case guy camaraderie, the breaking of which can contribute to feelings of unpleasantness. Navigating that transition is a skill applicable to both genders, actually, but the social implications can be more dire for women.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  18. Azotez

    Azotez Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    290
    Location:
    Denmark
    I do not consider myself a feminist. I am all for the equality of genders and hugely respect the advances that the feminist movement has caused, from its inoculation to around the millennium. The movements biggest problem today, is that their largest political issues, like voting rights and access to job opportunities, has already been implemented by most all western societies.

    This has done two things.
    1. Made them focus on smaller and smaller issues where a lot of people ends up thinking - "Why do you think this little insignificant issue is a more important thing to focus on,? What about than all these other larger equality issues that men are facing?"
    The ones with the largest voices today is a bunch of scorned women who would never think to help both genders equally, but rather promote only women, often at the expense of men.

    2. Made them focus on areas not directly associated with the equality of genders. An example would be minority issues and racism. This is not in itself a problem but when the consideration for acting against concived racism is held up against the consideration for women's rights and equality, the movement starts to face serious problems. It becomes another political movement entirely.

    What we have seen in Scandinavia is that the feminist movement has failed in its role to protect minority women by criticising practices in particular cultures, due to not wanting to inflame the sprouting racism that is seen. These minority women has for a long time then been left without support and help, with only the political right to talk their case, most often with the motive being to discredit the culture and religion of said minority.

    For this reason the feminist movement has lost a lot of tracktion. People has stopped believing in them as we have seen again and again their failure to address real problems and instead focus on small minor and ridiculous issues. They turn a blind eye to the real issues and facts and for this their cause suffers.

    *edit strikethrough wierd sentence
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  19. Immet

    Immet Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    211
    See, this is part of my problem with current day feminism. A lot of those things are problems with people in general, not feminist problems.

    I'm not sure of the specific records or reports to point you to, but from my understanding when police officers are required to charge the instigator of domestic violence every time even if no one wants to press charges, it's about 50-50 male and female instigators. For fucks sake, lesbian relationships have higher rates of domestic violence than heterosexual relationships than gay relationships. Domestic violence is not a feminist problem, it's a societal problem.

    And some things are milder but have problems on both sides, like 'dick' being a general derogatory term- "He's a dick" means he's an annoying, sometimes arrogant person. Oh look, male genitals in the common parlance are negative, just like female genitals are negative. Maybe it's just society being fucked up about sex, not a feminist issue?

    Or exactly the same thing with men as women- men are expected to be big and muscular, but they are mocked for going to the gym to get muscular.

    And people in general stir up shit, both men and women, for a variety of reasons, some because of their gender. Some women to prove that they are feminine.

    And why is teachers hitting on students a feminist issue? Male and female teachers get caught in relationships with students. Either it's also women that are a problem, or you are stating that only men have volition in relationships even in unequal power relationships.

    Again, this is my problem with the publicly shown feminism- taking general problems in society and looking only at the males doing it and calling it sexist.
     
  20. Rhett

    Rhett Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    Here's a controversial question. Is feminism destroying the 'white race'? Anyone going on youtube these days can see the rather gloating videos about 'whitey' dying out because of the low birth rate in Western countries. Now obviously, intelligent well educated ladies want careers and of course, inevitably that affects the birth rate. The movie, Idiocracy demonstrated this well. The best of our species don't have enough kids, while the worst breed like rabbits. I must add, I don't blame the ladies who deservedly want equality and careers, but it would be interesting what solution we could come up with? Artificial wombs? The technology is probably less than a decade away. What do you guys think?