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Feminism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Vir, Dec 22, 2007.

  1. Vir

    Vir Centauri Ambassador ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    This is just a beginning of a thought shaped in my mind about feminism. I'm posting it here so I can link it to people. And to get feedback from my fellow DLPers.

    There seems to be a large amount of controversy surrounding feminism. Personally I find that it once had its uses and was a vital component to society but has since mutated into something more sinister.

    The feminist lobby in Canada takes action in the most contradictory of ways. For example, they support abortion on the ground that it's the women who is effected the most out of the entire ordeal and they should have the sole right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. I find that there are several problems with this stance. On the surface, I would tend to agree with the sentiments expressed. However, there are other things which need to be considered, not the least of which is the role of the man in this decision. It takes two people to create a child (presumably) and the emotional repercussions are not limited to the female.

    I find that when confronted a feminist will state that they take into consideration the feelings and thoughts of males but whenever the conversation returns to the discussion at hand, it's all about the women and how it effects her, the concerns of the male are quickly, and quietly dismissed as trivia - after all, they're not important.

    There are more abstract things which also must be taken into account as well. From a philosophical standpoint the moral status of the fetus is also important. The need to establish a universal standard for the fetus is necessary in order to retain a sense of legitimacy. Otherwise, what you have is not a movement for equality between males and females in a modern world, but instead there is a situation created where a group of people wish to impose their moral and world-view on the masses using the auspices of equality and good will.

    In the abortion debate, feminists identify the fetus as having no moral standards or rights. It's only the female which matters in the discussion. After all, it's her body which is affected by the pregnancy.

    Other issues which are held dear to feminists is surrogate mothers and various fertility treatments such as vitro fertilizations. In the aforementioned cases the feminist perspective argues that both treatments should be outlawed because of abuses to the female. In the case of surrogacy it's demeaning to women and in the case of vitro it's a practice which is hard on the reproductive system and the female body in general.

    Now, taking these two positions have something in common, they are both discussing the females right to choose. In one case, the feminist is for abortions and the female right to choose one, yet in the others the female shouldn't be given the choice, for her own good.

    This strikes me as a contradiction in the stated goals of the feminist movement. Shouldn't a women be able to make her own decisions based upon whatever data that is made ready to her? Even if that decision is to rent out her womb so another couple can know the joys of parenthood.

    What I see in the feminist movement is the desire to control what a woman can and cannot due based on their own definition of morality.
     
  2. Rin

    Rin Oberstgruppenführer DLP Supporter

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    What I don't get about the feminist movement, is that they criticise any woman who chooses to stay home and take care of the house and children instead of work outside of the home. I thought they wanted to give women the choice to do so. I don't see anyone campaigning for a man's choice to do so. I seriously doubt that there are very many men who are even given the opportunity of staying home and taking care of the house and kids.

    I know I would love that opportunity. I fucking HATE working for a living. If the most I had to do was vaccuum a house every other day, and keep some kids in line until their six years old so I don't have to deal with them while they're at school, I'd be extatic. Instead, I have to go to a job every day, and most of the time, put up with people that I'd just as soon strangle as greet.
     
  3. Krull

    Krull Denarii Host

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    Women belong in the kitchen. That is all.
     
  4. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity Destroyer of Worlds ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    "Debates" that touch on the abortion question generally aren't usually very interesting since there's essentially no new ground that can be tread. You either come off as a religious nut or a sociopathic nut. Either way, if you play, you're a nut. Here's how the "debate" works: Both sides have inconsistencies that can are preyed upon by their opposition. Then, several posts in, you get the obligatory name calling, someone brings out their bible, there are pronouncements of Hitler, eugenics, blah blah. Then everyone goes home and makes popcorn.

    [Edit: Stripped out two paragraphs that didn't have much point. Something having to do with backhoes].

    Myself, I think I'll jump to the endgame and just go make popcorn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2007
  5. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Administrator Admin

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    Pretty much all lobbies are contradictory in some way, and sinister - even worthy of execution - in every way.
     
  6. LogrusMage

    LogrusMage Supreme Mugwump

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    ...Can we not have a thread about abortion?

    Feminism, sure, but abortion seems to be the only issue that always ends with the moderates sputtering and the crazies bringing us many, many lulz and FACEPALMs.

    I'd rather not go through that shit again.

    Neo-Feminism = Feminazism

    Just about everyone knows it too.
     
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Depends on how you're defining feminism. First wave, second wave, or third wave?

    And within the waves, Marxist Feminism, Ecofeminism (fucking hilarious by the way), deconstructionist feminism (a Derridean offshoot of the third wavers), and just plain old feminism.

    Regular feminists, just a bit hypocritical based on the name . . . But generally good people.

    They make up 85%+ of feminists.

    The other 15% make up the crazy fringe -- the crazy fringe controls the agenda, unfortunately.

    As for the abortion issue, vacuum it out if you want to. Better than the dumpster on prom night. If the woman wants to use her body as an incubator, then she should be allowed to.
     
  8. Mordac

    Mordac Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    The solution to the abortion debate is simply to invent a way to sustain the fetus outside the womb at any point in the pregnancy. Once that becomes possible, there is no excuse for abortion, you'd just extract the live fetus and transfer it to this super-incubator.
     
  9. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    And until that point is reached?

    Also, who would pay for that incubator and what legal obligations would the family have and what would happen to the already overextended adoption system which can't keep track of the kids it has?
     
  10. BioPlague

    BioPlague MD DLP Supporter

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    If Giovanni were a girl, we'd call him a feminazi.
     
  11. jbern

    jbern Alba Mater

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    If you're looking for lots of lulz in the feminist realm look no further than here.

    http://transformativeworks.org/about/index.html

    http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=203

    The OTW is a feminist fanfic writers group that wants to act as an advocacy group to somehow put the fanfic writers on the same tier with the actual authors.

    Of course these people seem out there even by our lofty standards. They like writing slash about real people.

    Scalzi's blog is where several of the founders show up and try to defend their position.

    Obviously, there are people out there who take fanfiction alot more seriously than we do, and I think it's hilarious.
     
  12. Amerision

    Amerision Galactic Sheep Emperor DLP Supporter

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    The only thing that I wish to see passed in these 'gender wars' is a provision that asks the (non-rapist) father for consent of pregnancy.

    A woman argues that she is pregnant, and thus, has the ability to terminate. A man pays for child support, yet he has no say over the outgrowth of his genetic material.

    If a single woman decides to have a child, the father must give his permission. If the father refuses, then the woman can choose to deliver anyway but waives all right to force the father to pay support. If the father is unidentified, the woman may deliver but can similarly not ask for support - just in case she decides to hire a PI and track him down years later.

    Not only would this discourage people from dropping babies they're going to use as weapons for legal battles, but it would make people think twice at having kids, not to mention giving some semblance of equality to all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2007
  13. jbern

    jbern Alba Mater

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    I've heard of some other interesting cases where man and woman are married. They can't conceive for one reason or another and freezes his swimmers. They divorce or he dies. She raids the genetic freezer and conceives.

    In the living cases, she goes after him for child support for a child he didn't consent to.

    In the dead cases, she files for social security support based on the dead spouse.

    Other cases I recall include women who conceive using donor sperm deciding to try to go after the donors for support.


    Can't recall how these cases turned out, but they raise some interesting questions.
     
  14. Amerision

    Amerision Galactic Sheep Emperor DLP Supporter

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  15. deathinapinkboa

    deathinapinkboa Minister of Magic

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    Yes, well he didn't have his paper work together.

    I do agree though that so long as women are able to terminate a fetus, man should be able to "abort" children in name with in the period of time that the women is able to get rid of the child. Should he not be informed of the pregnancy, she has waved her right to extract cash from him.
     
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Jim, thank you for providing me with a lifetime's worth of lulz.
     
  17. Drake

    Drake Seventh Year

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    I think the only way this would work is if when the father says the he wants the child aborted he must help pay for the abortion. That way he thinks twice about knocking a person up.
     
  18. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity Destroyer of Worlds ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    This isn't so much a feminism issue as a personal responsibility one. I guess I'll join Giovanni in the "feminazi dude" camp in that I don't see any parity between a guy's paying the cost of an abortion and a woman's trauma in going through one.

    I don't wish to see pathetic, wimpy, manslags procreating any more than the next person, so I see the wisdom in facilitating abortion of their foetid spawn, but there's also this little thing called personal responsibility. If you don't want to pay child support, then don't get the woman pregnant. If you do knock her up, then be a man, stop with the pussy pouting, and take responsibility in whatever manner she wants, since it's her body. (Yes it is. Don't be a bitch about it).

    It's not hard. If she wants the abortion, pay for it. If she wants the child, support her raising the child. Would you have run off to get the vasectomy just because she asked it of you? (And yes, the analogy with abortion is apt, if imbalanced in favor of the guy: a tradeoff of his body, his painful procedure, and her freedom; swap the pronouns and add in emotional trauma for her if she's got half a soul). It's personal responsibility for the guy, since he could always have worn the condom. Anything less than man-like behavior qualifies an XY-chromosomed as a pathetic, wimpy, manslag who should be backed over by a forklift at the first opportunity. It's for the good of the species.

    As for a woman taking a guy's spew out of cryo and knocking herself up, that's a different one. The message I take away is that one should check the legal riders and, as necessary, retain an attorney to ensure that the sperm is used in an authorized way. Again, a personal responsibility thing, not something that necessarily needs legislation or warrants discussion in the context of feminism.
     
  19. Amerision

    Amerision Galactic Sheep Emperor DLP Supporter

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    If it were only that cut and dry. Condoms aren't perfect, and neither are drug based contraceptives. Woman might also forget to take their pill.

    And if you're gonna argue that men should have to accept this and pay when pregnancies happen anyway, you might as well argue men should either abstain from sex and just fuck when they can support children.

    Why do fathers have to pay if they don't want a child? Why doesn't he have control over whether he wants to have a child or not? A woman gets affected by the pregnancy, yes, but a man's genetic material is his and he should have some say over the pregnancy.

    A personal responsibility thing? Donating sperm?

    If a man has to get himself an attorney and constantly check whether his sperm is being taken care of in a legal manner and actively preventing himself from paying child support payments, then I don't see why anyone would donate.

    These guys shouldn't be punished for donating their genetic material to couples who can't conceive and lesbians who want children.

    Let me rewrite for you:

    It's personal responsibility for the woman, since she could always have taken her pills or just closed her legs. Anything less than woman-like behavior qualifies an XX-chromosomed as a slutty, stupid, slag who should be backed over by a forklift at the first opportunity. It's for the good of the species.

    Oh? What's that? Only men should be held liable for their lack of personal responsibility?

    Well that's not equality, my friend - that's femnazism.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2007
  20. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity Destroyer of Worlds ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    *Beep Beep Beep* Got my forklift here, hold still.

    Um, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. if you can't take responsibility for your actions, you shouldn't be having sex. Why should you get to put the onus on someone else to clean up a mess you contributed to? Just download porn and give yourself a grip workout. Leave physical intimacy to the grownups.

    Because it's her body. You wouldn't run out and get a vasectomy just because she asked it, so don't pretend you have a right to say what she does with her body. Abortion or childbirth, either affects a woman's body (and, usually, mind) in a profound way. And if you're that concerned about spread of your "genetic material," then weigh it into the risks of having sex in the first place. Or grow up a little and talk with your partner about contingencies before you do the deed.

    Let's see. My lil sis was gang raped, got her self preggers. Guess she should have kept her legs shut, the "slutty, stupid slag." Or tried to find the arsemunch who did it so she could sort out his feelings on what to do with his precious genetic matter. ("Oh, and thanks for the herpes, dickhead.")

    Whatever. When did I say the woman wasn't dealing with personal responsibility? She doesn't have the option of just screening her cell number and hiding. She gets to deal with the issue no matter what happens--the fetus is growing in her and decisions have to be made in real time.

    The problem, rather, is the "pathetic, wimpy, manslags" who think that they are being somehow trapped if the woman doesn't immediately jump at a D&C shredding of the wall of her uterus (impacting her ability to have kids in the future), if she has one of several medical conditions that can make abortion risky to her life, or if she has strong spiritual, philosophical, or moral convictions that would impact her mental health if she were to have an abortion.

    If that's how it's defined, then I'm proud of it, bitch. The situation is asymmetric, with women bearing most of the burden (try arguing otherwise with your girlfriend/spouse and I guarantee you'll be sleeping alone for awhile), so any pretense of "equality" is futile. It only stands to reason that woman should have the final say in the matter.

    Gonna go make myself some more popcorn. Regards.
     
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