1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

Fidelius Charm

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Manis, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. Manis

    Manis Squib

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    If you're casting the Fidelius can't the person who lived innthe house with the Fidelius charm be the secret keeper? So couldn't James or lily have been secret keepers and nothing would have happened? Maybe I overlooked something? Help please.
     
  2. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Holy Moose Empire
    High Score:
    6900
    Bill was the Secret Keeper of the Shell Cottage, but this is not necessarily a plot hole. Could be that the Charm was improved since 1981 or Bill wasn't the owner of Shell Cottage and as such could become the Secret Keeper even if he lived there afterwards.

    Or it could just be JKR making a mistake. Either way, apparently neither James nor Lily could have been the Secret Keeper.
     
  3. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,216
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Blocksberg, Germany
    There's two questions. One, can someone be their own Secret Keeper, and two, which I find more interesting in this instance, would it have worked out better for the Potters if Lily or James had been the Secret Keeper?

    I don't think the second necessarily follows. Sirius would have been as good a choice as anyone, and the Peter switch was a clever trick. Too clever, as it turned out, but the idea was sound. Lily or James as the Secret Keeper would have only notably improved the security if they never ventured outside at all and spent months (or years, for all they knew back then) coped up inside the house. That's an unrealistic proposal, so I think the first question is largely academic.
     
  4. MoltenCheese

    MoltenCheese Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2015
    Messages:
    288
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DMZ
    Canon doesn't really say anything about this matter, so it's up to your interpretation. What the Canon does tell us in two occasions (Bill and Arthur) is that the secret keeper can be an owner or a person who lives in the protected place. Thus, we can know that Lily or James could have been the secret keeper, unless, as ScottPress said, the Fidelius Charm was modified sometime between 1981 and 1997.

    So, why didn't Lily and James do that instead? Again, up to your interpretation. Sesc's post above explains it brilliantly. Something I would like to add is that James is a prankster at heart, and it seems to be in-character that he would have pulled a trick like this to confuse/fool Voldemort. Probably gave him a few chuckles too, before finding Voldemort at his door post.

    Anyways, seeing your other thread about the Felix Felicis, I would advice you to use this thread to ask questions that don't require much discussion. If you have a canon question that would probably have a one or two line answer, use it instead of creating a new thread.
     
  5. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,819
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    My particular interpretation is that the secret has to pass ownership from the original owners of the secret to the secret-keeper. Flitwick specifically says in PoA you have to hide the secret in "another person's soul". The use of "another person" implies an original person, i.e. that the secret has to move out of the soul(s) that constitute its natural home.

    James and Lily jointly owned the secret that they lived at Godric's Hollow, so neither could be the secret keeper for a secret that they already held (i.e. neither could count as "another person", because both of them held the secret in their souls already), so they passed it to Peter Pettigrew. Sirius owned the secret of Grimmauld Place's location and he passed it to Dumbledore. Aunt Muriel owned the secret of Shell Cottage's location and passed it to Bill. Aunt Muriel owned the secret of her own home's location and passed it to Arthur.

    The person who casts the spell is just a catalyst for the passing of the secret. What really matters is who originally owned the secret and who is the secret keeper, and that they can't be the same person.

    This explanation also reveals why you can't just go around putting anything and everything under the Fidelius: you can only pass a secret to a secret keeper if the secret is yours in the first place.

    Of course, all this leads to the question "When does a secret count as yours?" The specifics of that (and the mechanics of hiding information in souls) are why I imagine Flitwick calls the charm extremely complex.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  6. MoltenCheese

    MoltenCheese Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2015
    Messages:
    288
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DMZ
    Wait, where did you get this information? As far as I know, it's not indicated in the canon that Aunt Muriel owned either the Shell Cottage or the Burrow.

    OP: An Essay About the Fidelius Charm from HP Lexicon. Doesn't really answer your question, but it might help you understand the concept of the Fidelius Charm more comprehensively.
     
  7. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,819
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Who owns Shell Cottage is never said in canon. Muriel is said to own it in the movies. The movies aren't canon, but I generally take them as suggestive (since JKR was involved in their creation), especially on matters where canon is silent, where there is no contradiction with canon, and where the movies' suggestion would help resolve something that is not clear in canon.

    The Burrow was never placed under the Fidelius. The Weasleys fled to Muriel's home which was placed under Fidelius.
     
  8. Download

    Download Auror ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    High Score:
    1918
    I could have sworn I read that Bill had the secret to Muriel's home where the Weasley Family were and that someone in the Weasley family had the secret to Bill's place.

    ---------- Post automerged at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

    Nope, looking it up it seems I'm wrong

    ---------- Post automerged at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

    I always imagined that it's simply just a bad idea for a person to be the secret keeper of a place they frequent regularly because you going in and out of the place or if you have a tracking charm on you counts as giving the secret away.
     
  9. Caleb

    Caleb Squib

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Australia
    What Taure said flows with my knee jerk understanding of it, but the thing I never quite understood was why the switch to Pettigrew was necessary in the first place. Surely if Sirius had been made the secret keeper of Godric's Hollow, it'd have been a great deal safer for him to have simply resided with James and Lily in something of a closed circle and as such been isolated from the threat of Voldemort entirely.

    I can't quite recall whether it's ever hinted towards in canon, but did the Potters continue their active service as members of the Order after going into hiding? If not, was it simply unfeasible for Sirius to take himself out of the fight alongside them in order to make their refuge a sure thing? The switch makes more sense to me if Sirius at least was to continue in the fight against Voldemort, as then his being something of an obvious choice after Dumbledore would justify the decision to make Pettigrew the Secret Keeper. That said, why wouldn't they then have planned for Pettigrew to sequester himself away under the Fidelius alongside them while Sirius gallivanted about the countryside? They'd have been fucked anyway but it'd seem like a sound idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  10. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    8,014
    Location:
    Australia
    If you secret keepered your existence, could you write a note to let someone know you existed, or would the magic stop them from reading it?
     
  11. Moridin

    Moridin Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,264
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Proudspire Manor
    If you aren't the Secret Keeper I'd imagine they couldn't read it. Just like Harry couldn't see Grimmauld Place until he read the note Dumbledore (IIRC?) had written.
     
  12. Klackerz

    Klackerz Bridgeburner

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    786
    Location:
    India
    You should give the secret to someone else. So he could tell others of your existence. I have no idea what will happen if the secret keeper dies and no one knows the secret
     
  13. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,216
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Blocksberg, Germany
    For how long? The next 50 years?

    All of these solutions are entirely impractical. The secret is safe for as long as the Secret Keeper chooses not to divulge it, so the gain isn't even that great. If you trust your best friends to rather die than give it up, as the Potters clearly did, the points becomes moot.

    Peter was Sirius trying to be clever and everyone paying for it (the same trait, by the way, that got him killed by Bellatrix later on). It's a consistent feature of his character, so I think works rather nicely, if tragically.
     
  14. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    8,014
    Location:
    Australia
    Maybe.. when someone trips on nothing...

    !!!!!!!
     
  15. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    5,048
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    While this is all very convincing, what is your take on the fact that Ron was capable of revealing Shell Cottage to others?
     
  16. Stan

    Stan Order Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    838
    The house wasn't under the Fidelius then. The Weasleys had no reason to go into hiding until Ron was exposed. It was put up later, presumably while Harry buried Dobby.
     
  17. Caleb

    Caleb Squib

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Australia
    Certainly it isn't exactly ideal for them to remain shacked up indefinitely, but I'd have assumed that if things looked sufficiently bleak, there would have been something of an exodus to some other country or locale, or some manner of extraction plan that would kick in somewhat sooner than the fifty year mark. The point about it being quite in character for Sirius is a notable one, as I'd imagine he'd not be one to remain in hiding indefinitely while the country fell to shit around him. Much the same as remaining in Grimmauld Place in canon sent him a little wild with inaction.

    With regard to the function of the Secret Keeper though, I guess I'd always just assumed that the entire point of the switch was underpinned by the notion that, should such a person have fallen into the hands of Voldemort, there was the potential for it to fall to shit somehow. My understanding is that the secret has to be divulged voluntarily, but would the means of coercion and interrogation that someone like Voldemort would've had at his disposal present the potential for even the most stalwart of friends to break and give it up? If so, the switch makes sense, but then so would having the Secret Keeper reside under the Fidelius. If not, then there's no net gain behind making the switch in the first place, Sirius would have been pursued and gone loyally to his grave either way.

    I guess it's all rather irrelevant, Sirius doesn't seem the type to remain in doors indefinitely and Peter would have betrayed them anyway. I apologise if I'm talking much and saying little, it's just always been an aspect of canon that I've had a decidedly muddled understanding of.

    By the way, if the Secret Keeper kicks the bucket. You're pretty much in the clear no? The inclusion list would presumably remain inconveniently static, but unless someone already in the know did you in, you'd pretty much be covered no?
     
  18. Moridin

    Moridin Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,264
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Proudspire Manor
    Caleb: IIRC that last paragraph is the plot to some fanfic. Three can keep a secret if two are dead, Harry makes an old Dolohov (I think) Keeper of some huge secret and then kills him.
     
  19. Chilli

    Chilli Seventh Year DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    May 27, 2006
    Messages:
    261
    Gender:
    Female
    I think JKR said in an interview that if the secret keeper dies, then those who know the secret become secret keepers themselves.
     
  20. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,191
    High Score:
    2,058
    There's another, simpler explanation.

    In order for a Secret Keeper to be the same person who owns whatever the secret is, that person has to be highly advanced in certain types of magic, say, Curse-Breaking/Protection Charm setting (Since the first is deconstructing the second in a magical way).

    Thus, the only two characters who set their Fidelius with them as Secret Keepers would be Dumbledore (who may have set the Fidelius Charm over Sirius's home), the Merlin of the book series, and Bill, the professional Curse-Breaker.
     
Loading...