You know what the most common complaint I hear nowadays about games is? Length. People who played the older generations of games have a laundry list of class-A titles that used to last for 40 hours or more. See if you recognize any of these: Super Mario RPG, Tactics Ogre, Fallout 1 & 2, any Elder Scrolls game going back from Morrowind. Ogre Battle 64 (I've had that game since I was 12, and have clocked over 140 hours in one savegame.) Any Baldur's Gate. Paper Mario. Hell, Myst.

All of us clocked in tons of time in Starcraft. Diablo was a revolutionary WRPG, and most of us played the shit out of it. If you were like me, Doom was pretty fun to replay. Hell, even the Sims was a pretty good time-waster, even if you were only going to be a bastard and lock people into a small closet to starve to death. Civilization games defined epic-length. All of these were incredible games, and despite pretty piss-poor graphics by today's standards, they're still hits and I know I'm still playing them years later.

So what does this have to do with anything?

Today's games are barely ten hours. If you're lucky, you'll make twenty. I remember when I shat bricks when I beat Fable in like six hours. I was completely amazed what was a pretty decent RPG was that damned short. Sure, if you go back and sidequest your ass off, you'll add a few hours on. But that isn't the point. I expect a game I paid $40 for (At the time) to have way more content. I was fucking disappointed, and probably so was everyone else who bought it expecting more. And we've pretty much gone downhill from there. Gaming seems to have become a two out of three. You either get good graphics and good gameplay, and a shitty story. Or switch those around.

Who bought Mass Effect? It had an epic story, and I honestly would've enjoyed the game. That is, if it were a game. It feels more like an interactive cutscene to me, to be honest. It's a lot of words words words, and when it finally (grudgingly) lets you play, it's not exactly up to snuff. The damned Mako controls like parallel parking without a steering wheel. It took me until playthrough 3 to figure out the fucking thing had a cannon on it. I tried to play a biotic/guns girl, but it was a lot easier to just shoot everything in front of me without using biotics. There wasn't much incentive to effect any mass. And I might be being too tough on it storywise. Yes, there is a lot of dialogue. Yes, you can skip it. But the one problem with that is that some fucked up masochist made the skip button also choose a dialogue option. So imagine this scenario:

Udina: Shepard, you-

You: Skip.

Udina: Now, what we need to-

You: Skip. Skip skip.

Udina: I think-

You: Skiiiiiip.

Dialouge Options [You naturally are tapping X because fuck listening to Udina whine.]

You: I think I'm an ignorant fucktard and you're totally right about it, Udina.

FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This happens a lot, especially if you've played it before and heard all the dialogue before. Mass Effect had a great story, and some killer graphics, but it sacrificed gameplay for them. It seems endemic of modern games to do something similar. Call of Duty 4 is an excellent game, with robust multiplayer and a pretty excellent storyline and neat graphics. But the single player mode is short as hell. Even on the hardest difficulty you're not going to break twelve hours.

This is gaming's present, then. Even a game like Fallout 3, which despite what its detractors say is a good game in its own right, is ridiculously short. Almost inexcusably so. Metal Gear Solid 4, while I'm sure it's a great game to its fans, turned me off almost immediately. The story seemed retardedly convoluted, and the controls felt awkward. The graphics were neat, but overall it was just a giant bit of fan-wank. And this is being lauded as one of the best games we've got today. And even worse? It's true.

If a game today isn't sacrificing one of the Triumvirate for another, it's taking them all down in the interest of multiplayer. Yes, we all love online MP. Yes, many games are successful without even the semblance of a story mode. Team Fortress 2 anyone? Hell, Left 4 Dead? These games aren't bad; in fact, they're some of my favorite games today. But they're converting us bit by bit to the culture of massive online play and no single player. World of Warcraft, for example, is an influential, and massive gameworld that's sucked in something like 11 million people. But for me, it isn't fun. You just do the same shit over and over, and that's not enough for me. Morrowind was fun because while you might be rehashing the same quests, it was a rich and engaging world where you were so immersed you didn't care.

How many games today can claim to offer you the same experience? Few to none. Bright spots are few and far between. Condemned is one of the best games I've played in a while, Prototype is pretty good so far, and Fallout 3, while it didn't live all the way up has put on a good showing. We've had some good sequels, but I generally disdain making positive comments about them because an original IP is so much fresher and more potent. STALKER Clear Sky has been a blast, but I don't recommend it for anyone but the truly hardcore crowd. Bioshock, Sins of a Solar Empire. These are all bright spots in today's gaming.

But what are we looking to in the future?

Honestly, the trends aren't looking good. Halo has deadened an entire generation of FPS fans, and the current crop of FPS games is showing its effects. Our RPG bin isn't looking great. Fallout's a bright star, but it may be the only one. And overall, online play is becoming more important than anything else. One could argue this is good, but I honestly think being stuck with a bunch of games you have to play with the normal denizens of the net is not a future to look forward to.

What do you think? Are we only going down from here, or are the best of today's games only heralds for more?

 

Video games have become open to everyone. Guys and gals, housewives, frat boys, furries and of course the serious gamer. If you'd like Mindless, think of it in terms of fanfiction. Where reviews are profit. While there are a few people that strive for quality most are content to shit out Harry/Draco!Twilightxover's every few months and grin as the reviews (profit) pours in.

There comes a time however when people start harping about 'quality' 'attention to details' and 'plot coherence'. So 'SnapeTheSexGod101' reowork her entire approach to writing, or she could use her reviews to buy out the competition. Force shezza to be the one pumping out the yaoi. No more quality complaints.

Something we'd want to avoid at all costs obviously, as would shezza. She'd have to up her production rate to compete with the filth. And eventually she'd be forced to start cutting some things to keep up. Sub-plots, excellent characterization etc.

You see where I'm going with this?

 

Honestly? I think you're either looking into today's games a little too much, or into retro games entirely too little. Every single one of your games from that initial list of good retro games- StarCraft and Diablo notwithstanding- have been RPGs, which were- and still are- generally quite long overall. You want to talk about action games and platformers?

Fine. Sonic the Hedgehog, Super Mario World, Contra, Super Metroid, any Zelda title before Twilight Princess- they're all short as hell, they just have a lot of replay value. Unless you're playing them more than once, you'll be lucky to get ten hours out of any of them. The same can really be said for any old title, RPGs aside.

Looking at today's games? Mainstream action titles and some WRPGs are still really fucking short, but there are still games that are fucking long as hell- you just have to look for them. Ask anyone who played Persona 4 how long it took them the first time through. That game was what, 80 hours long? Tales of ... games are hardly any shorter.

 

I definitely agree with you on the Mass Effect part and I'll even throw in my dislike for the awkwardness of Shepard's dialogue. Whenever he spoke it just came out wrong somehow... It didn't feel like the characters were actually speaking to each other...

This is how Mass Effect should have been: Link

No particular game comes to my mind when considering the game's length. Maybe Assassin's Creed, but I've been told about 20 hours of that was just a repeat of the first 20, so probably not... Disregarding most strategic games and multiplayer functions, then you're probably right; games are just not as long as they used to be. However considering the what you get for your buck these days, I think the tradeoff is worth it in most cases.

Although what about some of the Mario games to the Wii? I've never played any of the new ones, but if Mario Galaxies is anything like Super Mario 64 then it could easily reach 20 hours, I think.

 

AC was awesome. But yeah, it's the exact same thing over and over, but to be fair, you can always find epic ways to do your kills.

I think part of the problem with video games, is the cross platform sales angle now. The 360 being so easy to port games for, means developers angle to have a fucking game playable by a controller, and gut the shit out of it. Dawn of War 2 for example. Should of been epic. They dumbed the shit down, made the maps ultra small, and the missions ultra easy, you know, so your average 10 yr old all filled up with speed medicine can beat it in 5 minutes. Developers: "Ohhh we don't know, IF it sells well we MIGHT port it"

BULLSHIT. They made the whole game set up to be able to be loaded in under eternity by the 360, that's why it's so gimped control wise.

And Fable.. don't get me started, Fable 2 pissed me off, but not nearly as bad as Fable 1.

The Witcher stands alone I think right now, for how to do it right. Controls needs some polish, but the world and story is awesome, graphics are tight, and the game's fun. TF2 rocks, and hell, even some of the LEGO games are more fun then other stuff I've found.

Diablo was the first PC game I played, followed by, SW: Dark Forces, and Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2, and Warcraft 1. Replayabiity was through the roof. We're currently working on Fight Night Round 4, and Gears of War 2.

Gears seems to be actually a decent length for a FPS, and by that I mean it's more then 5 hours long.


tl;dr When they designed PC games for PC gamers, all was good. When they turned to greedy fucks and whored the games out to consoles, all went wrong with the world.


Edit: And all the Mario talk, Mario RPG was epic! Secret of Evermore, Secret of Mana, FF1-3, Chrono Trigger (it's over hyped as shit to cult status, but it's an amazing game) nearly anything Square did was incredible.)

 

If you didn't like Mass Effect enough you were skipping the dialogue and randomly clicking... I don't think it's the kind of game for you, simply. It was closer to what I was looking for an RPG - not something like Oblivion or Final Fantasy - though it can't top Bloodlines, Baldur's Gate or some older classics.

There is some merit that can't be denied - there is some reduction of quality in the newest generation of games. I couldn't play Oblivion for more than a week, Fallout 3 even less... and there was no shortage of content there.

I'm still playing WC3 every so often. I played Planescape again a few months ago too.

As video games become more mainstream I think we can anticipate them to become shorter, easier, and more dilluted. There will still be some games we can all enjoy though. I just tried out Wii Sports Resort and I'll say the sword fighting endurance game is as fun as hell (it's basically kendo... except you fight several dozen of enemies one after another in a small battlefield) and shows promise for /hopefully/ some fucking awesome Zelda Wii.

The Wii actually has a lot of potential for action games like sword fighting or piloting games... more than just wagglewiggle... but none of the developers seem interested in tapping its capabilities. Doesn't really make sense to me.

In the end, we may simply turn to developers who develop for free. Look at Dwarf Fortress.

 

DLC pisses me off the most with the current generation of games. You pay $50+ for a game and then the developer says that you have to shell out an additional sum of money for content (that by all rights) should have shipped with the game in the first place. Just pisses me off...

Speaking of The Witcher, they released a new patch for it on the 8th. Haven't re-installed yet, but the patch is suppose to add "5 bonus adventures made by the Witcher community", remove the CD check, and "solves problems with EAX and blurred graphics".

The same goes for console games that they port to the PC (though there probably not a many of those). Crazy bugs are introduce and it doesn't really feel like a PC game. KOTOR is probably a good example. There was so much that I felt we could have explored, but since is was designed for a console. They had to work with the limitations of the hardware. However mod development has probably kept KOTOR alive longer than it should have

Mass Effect PC port feels a little this way to me as well...

Square was pretty much the king of the SNES rpg.

 

To be fair, I added that title in after I finished the paragraph. May not have been the best decision on my part.

 

Also serious lack of any RPG releases nowadays. Unless of course it's a remake for the Wii or PSP. This is good of course because otherwise I never would have played FF3... But I find myself going back to my SNES emulator everytime I want to play any RPG(Currently the original Breath of Fire).

RPG's continue to be my favorite genre but I find less and less released everyday. The only ones that don't seem to be going away are Atlus games, Dragon Quest, and FF.

 

Don't see the disagreement there, Xiph. Though I probably should have looked into party games, eh?

As for Pirates, Red Alert and GTA: you certainly have a point, though I haven't actually played that Pirates title. GTA and Strategy games do have a tendency to be rather long (I haven't looked into Red Alert, myself, but I remember Warcraft 2 and StarCraft being rather long).

I still think that while there are certainly exceptions, gaming now is generally just easier than it was way back when (with some obvious exceptions). There are a lot of retro titles that are quite short, and a lot of retro titles that are quite long (if it's an action title or a platformer, it's usually the former, if it's an RPG, you'd be hard pressed to find one that isn't the latter).

 

I think that the next generation of games is going to drift towards the Super Mario Galaxy sort, and less towards RPG and FPS. Now that the corporations are making video games accessible to everyone, they have to make them playable by everyone. The crowds don't want PC games, xbox and ps games are staring to look the same, but the Wii has enough room to develop that they could really do some cool stuff with it - and the Wii has always been focused on easy gameplay instead of length and graphics.

Games are in a period of political correctness. It's like how schools can't put up signs that say "Merry Christmas" and have to say "Happy Holidays" instead. Games can be pretty and full of cool stuff, but to make a game a 10 year old kid or an 80 year old grandma can't play is discrimination. Eventually it will get to a point where some wonderful soul will find a niche and start cranking out the rebellion again.

It will probably take a couple years before they get there, but it'll be awesome when it arrives.

 

Fixed that for you.

Games are too short nowadays, but World of Warcraft isn't one of them.

 

Personally I am of the opinion that gameplay and innovation and getting the most and more from a game trumps having a photorealistic game or one with 'perfect' real world physics.

If I wanted real world physics, I'd go look at the real world.

I have a PS2 and a XBOX 1 and I play the hell out of them, the PS2 more in the last 6-7+ months than XBOX 1.

For PS2 I'm playing right now Jak and Daxter 1-3, Odin Sphere, I just bought Sly Cooper 1-3 today (I'm kind of on a platformer riff lately.) Shadow of the Colossus, Disgaea 2, Onimusha Dawn of Dreams, among others. I'm about 70% done with Final Fantasy XII, although I haven't played it in a year.

All in all, I have about 100-120 games for both my systems and I've only beaten maybe 20 of them. Finishing RE4 was a milestone for me.

And has anyone else on DLP played Shin Megami Tensei:Nocturne for PS2 and loved the hell out of it? I know I'm not the only one.

Geeking out and loving it.

 

The problem is the developers are trying to dumb it down for 12 year olds and the other idiots that play games now. The Casual Crowd.

Now that this crowd is playing video games, they outnumber the dedicated crowd of the past, who are the people that developers aimed to please in the way back when.

Because the casual crowd will largely be frustrated and/or confused by the high learning curves and the length of the games of the past, the developers dumb it down so that their games will sell to these people.

That's all it really is. Developers losing sight of their priority: the people who actual like to play games.

Sidenote: When I was 12, I was playing the fuck out of gigantic games like Morrowind. Kids these days. Need to learn to man the fuck up.

 

Good god, what ever happened to the whole, "Don't like it? Don't play it." Everybody has their own taste. Game developers are more worried about making money, which they should be, because it's a busine- oh wait.

Or wait, did I miss the point because this is a rage thread.

tl;dr Everybody has their own taste in games. If 1 person didn't like the games, but the other 200,000 people did; what does your 1 dislike contribute to thousands of others?

Clarification: Didn't pull the numbers out of my ass, just logged on to Halo 3 online, for shits and giggles, and there's more than 350,000 people online. This was mainly used for an example.

 

Woah, 350 million?

O:

 

While I'm kind of burned out on Megaten at the moment (it's basically all I've played this year, and that's starting to get to me), I am practically a fanboy of the series. All of their titles are really good, Nocturne especially (even if it's sadistically hard).