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Harry Potter and Not So Smart Villains

Discussion in 'Hall of Shame' started by Havaiamas, Dec 16, 2013.

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  1. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Death Eater DLP Supporter

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    A person is riding a high with their ego on the internet in forums dedicated to Harry Potter, with arguments on both sides; on left is a steep rocky cliff with a drop of hundred feet down to obscurity, and on the right is the mountain of difficult intercourse. Suddenly he posts a new thread coming from the left, touting his own intelligence and rubbing it in everyone's faces, but loses control and the thread steers away from him.

    He has two options now, either to fade away and lurk, which has high chances that he will not be remembered, the other to keep arguing in a forum that does not respect him and never will, which means he will avoid fading away but will meet the mountain from the side and maybe bruise his ego; definite chances of injury but less chance that they will be forgotten. He decides to keep arguing, is that a stupid decision?

    Going by your logic quoted above, the action he takes is not unexplainable, it is unlikely that he will get out without a bruised ego, but there is still some chance, not unexplainable. But it still was a stupid decision, because in the other alternative, he would not have been butthurt, but fading away would have been likely. He most probably would have survived and come back eventually. That would have been the smart decision, but according to your logic, as the action he took had some chances of success, even though unlikely, the action is not stupid. There is a possibility of explanation, but in real world, it was a stupid decision.
     
  2. Havaiamas

    Havaiamas Second Year

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    Haha, nice try, but you get my options wrong, I am far too complex for you to comprehend.
     
  3. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Death Eater DLP Supporter

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    It's so cute the way it thinks it's people.
     
  4. Darth Disaster

    Darth Disaster The Waking Sith Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Epic Troll-Tagging is Epic.
     
  5. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch Sixth Year DLP Supporter

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    You aren't accounting for magic.
     
  6. Havaiamas

    Havaiamas Second Year

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    I am sure modal proposition was not conceptualized with "magic" in mind.
     
  7. Lyrium

    Lyrium Sent Back to India

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    I'd be interested in OP trying to answer this.

    However, the distinction is not really whether or not villains are smart. The majority of our cultural products don't allow villains to win so therefore authors\creators must figure out a way to inhibit the villains in some way. Sometimes this is done with hubris, short-sightedness, madness, OCD, etc. Other times it is done with deus ex machina, the hero having exceptional luck, real friends, etc.

    Fiction often takes a more binary stance towards good\evil whereas in real life those lines are not as clearly defined and therefore in real life villains do win and may be clearly smarter than the heroes (or in many cases victims) - both of whom may embody qualities generally proscribed to the other.

    OP reminded me of this scene in Speed:

    Hero and Villain are struggling on top of a subway train.

    Villain (Howard Payne): I'm smarter than you, Jack! I'm smarter! I'm smarter!

    Jack see's a hanging light and forces villain's head into it's path. Villain looks up at the last moment and screams before being decapitated.

    Hero (Jack): Yeah? Well, I'm TALLER!


    Well, he's both taller and smarter in this case. The villain was misinformed to the nature of his intelligence.
     
  8. Theogonia

    Theogonia Second Year

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    I'll totally regret this...

    From your later comments I gained that you, like many here, don't like Harry winning because of sheer luck. With that I'll ask you: What chance would he, as an 11 year old boy, have had against a smart-acting QuirrelMort? I don't think he has even learnt the Expelliarmus- or Protego-spell so, with a smart villain, the "series" would have consisted of about 300 pages. It might have been more realistic, but Harry is the protagonist and, especially since the first few books are meant to be for children, needs some special treatment. Even more so: I'd say that with it being a children's book he is entitled to it to underline the educational goal of this instalment. It means to teach kids to belief in theirselves and hold true to their moral principles even when the odds are against you. That wouldn't really work if Harry were killed in the first book, would it? So IMO it just makes sense to instal a "not so smart villain" as a deus ex or whatever one may call it, even though on a basic level I can understand Quirrel's action to grab Harry.
    As I see it grabbing Harry is the most natural action to get close enough to get the stone from him. Quirrel had no way to know that there's still some kind of protection that would hurt him, so he did the (at that point of time) reasonable thing, which was to physically restrain him. Yeah, being a wizard and all would have allowed him to play it "smart" and stupefy Harry, or AK him on the spot, but using Occam's Razor in that regard grabbing him was the easiest and therefore right choice.
    Regarding not stunning Harry after that, well children's book and stuff, see above.

    I already wrote about the werewolf-issue a few pages back, and I assume that the same goes for animagi: A petrification won't stick if the form shifts.

    Would love to write more, but I got stuff to do. Maybe later.
     
  9. Havaiamas

    Havaiamas Second Year

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    I already have. Steerpike in Gormenghast Trilogy and O'Brien in 1984 I am sure about. Vorbis in Small Gods I think was smart, he was taking down by a deus ex machina, but that is because the book is also a parody. Although, I read this book last about two years ago, can't be sure. I remember like His Dark Materials Trilogy and Bartimaeus Trilogy more than HP series, but it's been at least four years since I read them, can't be sure.

    ---------- Post automerged at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

    And I clarified why that is not the case, here I go again.

    Quirrell was walking backward at him, so that Voldemort could still see him. The evil face was now smiling.

    “How touching…” it hissed. “I always value bravery… Yes, boy, your parents were brave… I killed your father first; and he put up a courageous fight… but your mother needn’t have died… she was trying to protect you… Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain.”

    “NEVER!”

    Harry sprang toward the flame door, but Voldemort screamed “SEIZE HIM!” and the next second, Harry felt Quirrell’s hand close on his wrist.


    So Quirell was facing backwards, couldn't have grabbed his wrist from that position. So he had to turn, Harry had sprang, Quirell started moving after Voldemort screamed, it's obvious here that he couldn't have grabbed in an instant, which he doesn't, it takes him a second to catch. What it implies is that Quirell moved fast.

    Also, my objection is not using spells here, but from the start where Voldemort realized the stone in his pocket. A genius wizard should have instructed Quirell to do that, maybe it could have gone like this, Quirell used a spell but it didn't work because of the protection. Should have tried a few things, I mentioned summoning Harry's pants or the Stone, he didn't know whether there is a spell on the stone to stop summoning, should have tried once at least.

    Regarding, petrification not sticking, if that was the case, should have been clarified by Rowling in the novels, it was not, you are just inventing stuff now. Animagus in animal form can be stunned, so can humans, there's no indication that if a petrified person changes form the spell will be removed. Not canon, I won't consider it. I have mentioned many times, if you're assuming stuff, I can also assume stuff to counter your points and make new ones, but that defeats the purpose.
     
  10. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    You do realize that the first human instinct would be to grab him, not to curse him. Add to that the fear of Voldemort's wrath and the adrenaline, which once more pushes you towards acting. Did Harry even have his wand out?

    Seems to me that Voldemort had no reason whatsoever to think there'd be a point to stunning Harry before taking the stone. Hell, it might be that he did not want to cast any magic in Harry's direction, considering how that went the last time.

    As for the situation with the werewolf. Perhaps werewolves are resistant to magic. The wounds can't really be fixed by magic, so it's not unreasonable to assume to.

    Other than that, see what I said above about fear clouding one's judgement. It's really easy for you to find logical solutions to any given situation from behind your keyboard. It's another thing entirely to make any decision, let alone a good one, in a combat situation.

    Hell, I sometimes fuck that part up when I play 5vs5 computer games.
     
  11. Havaiamas

    Havaiamas Second Year

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    Wizards are not like us, they are used to magic, also, I mentioned that he should have tried spells the first thing instead of tryng to coax it from him, that was some minutes before Quirell grabbed the arm. Should have tried summoning the stone at least, and then his pants, see if that works. Many more options, asking and then grabbing is meh.

    Please read the situation again, I posted text from the novel, Lupin started converting many seconds after Black realized he will convert. Please find that or open your book. Should have petrified him and then maybe tried hiding him from the moon's shadow, how do I know Rowling thought of that while writing? Of course now she can invent more stuff, but that's not the point, she didn't think of these possibilities while writing, if she had she would have included stuff which counters this possibility, shouldn't have taken more than a line or two.

    ---------- Post automerged at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

    I agree with that, but consider the werewolf situation, before coming out, not only were Black and Sirius hopeful, they were extremely glad! A positive state of mind, not negative, expect better decisions. Black and Lupin mention many times to Peter to not try tricks, while casting the corpse transport spell on Snape and in the Tunnel. They even say they will kill him if he does that, but why? Stun him, they have a stunned Snape, memory cue, a positive frame of mind and a vital situation, and they don't get any ideas. Sorry, I like characters to be smarter than this for me to like the book.
     
  12. Caledfwlch

    Caledfwlch Sixth Year DLP Supporter

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    Since we're getting nowhere fast, what was your issue with pensieves?
     
  13. Havaiamas

    Havaiamas Second Year

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    Oh no, I do have evidence for it, but I won't share it right now. There's a limit to the amount of arguments I can juggle in my head, after this storm has abated, I will post it.
     
  14. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    You know what? Taure's already explained to you how too much exposition totally blows the pacing.

    I've already explained to you that you can't always make logical choices in the heat of combat. I'm not sure if there's any way of explaining it any clearer.

    Edit: So because you're happy when a grenade drops in your lap, you're more likely to make a smart decision? Gimme a fucking break. :p

    Some of these things could have been explained and done better. Few on this forum would argue that book 6 and 7 were all that good or that Voldemort made 100% sense in them. That said, many of the "points" you've tried to make have failed utterly.

    And so have you. Complex my ass.
     
  15. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Alright everybody, thanks for playing. Havajamas, mind your next post, or it might be your last.
     
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