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How would you fix immigration in the EU?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Sesc, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. Dark Minion

    Dark Minion Bright Henchman Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Someone asked me to do something aboot this mess...

    I think I'll close the thread for now and leave it to Sesc to slap you all around for a bit.

    In fact, its going to stay cloosed for a while, and the slapping happens tomorrow when I'm not half-asleep. -Sesc
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2016
  2. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

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    Uhm.. so crazy idea.. we build..a wall. :awesome
     
  3. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    kinetique: Fuck off, and by that I mean "don't post in this thread if I happen to open it again". The discussion was pretty uninspiring before you came, but you displayed a fantastic talent to drag it even lower.

    You know perfectly well how to debate -- that is, if you want to accuse someone of self-righteousness post a relevant quote or paraphrase, so that they have the chance to defend themselves, instead of appearing in a thread and dumping general remarks directed at no one in particular. That's more work, and if you don't want to invest it, don't fucking post.

    Also, I haven't ever said that "importing an endless amount of people to Europe is whats going to save Europe" (save it from what, even?) so you are flat out making shit up as you go along. For those reasons, have a card.

    Invictus: First two hit, third miss. Less ad hominem, more arguments. And if a post is obviously of shit quality, you can also ignore it. Also card.

    Lindsey & Odran: Would prefer you moved that particular argument elsewhere, because I'm trying to keep this thread sorted, see below.


    To that effect, new ground rules:
    I get that there are crassly differing viewpoints, and that you can't very well exclude Islam from the topic. However, if you start fundamental debates on the nature of religion and extremism that would work just as well without this topic, I'm shutting it down which means shutting you out. As always, if you want to discuss it, no one's stopping you from making a new thread (even though it's probably the gazillionth one on that topic).

    Also, it would help debate quality tremulously if everyone decreased ad hominems. You are as clever as you post, and right now, that's not too bright.

    Open again. If it derails another time, it stays closed.
     
  4. Captain Trips

    Captain Trips High Inquisitor

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    An honest question here, with the influx of people, how do you lot suggest we solve the shortage of housing? Here in Sweden for example, we had precious little housing before the current crisis, as it stands now it is even worse.
     
  5. Dicra

    Dicra Seventh Year

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    Yeah, building them is pretty much the only solution. But to build new houses for immigrants when they didn't do anything before when the situation was ALSO quite unpleasant won't be very popular.
    And that's the crux: There are many untenable things only really coming to light now that have been left to rot since forever, but if you change them now everyone gets the impression you're willing to do more for the refugees than for your own country.
     
  6. corrwin

    corrwin Second Year

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    The Turkish solution was widely discussed here and while it is probably unavoidable, it's also distasteful for anybody concerned about the state of democracy and human rights in Erdogan's Turkey. I'd say - not worth it, do not give 6 000 000 000 euro to people sending police to take over newspapers.
    And now Erdogan goes even further, he demands the EU (and specifically Germany) to lower our standards to his level. Take a moment to this satirical video Turkey wanted Germany to censor... and think again if this is the kind of guy to do business with.

    Guardian's take

    Of course, Germany refused, at least the demand to end freedom of speech, the rest of Turkish demands were largely met.
     
  7. blob

    blob Fourth Year

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    Truth be told, it's nothing particularly new that Erdogan is a raging wannabe-dictator dickbag, so no real surprise there. I wonder how far he'll try to milk this situation in the future tho (also, Streisand effect much? Can't help but laugh about that video).

    That being said, since I didn't really keep up with the topic, would anyone mind giving a brief update about the effects of the eu-turkey deal? I realize that it's far too soon to expect anything major just yet, but did anything change at all?
     
  8. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Not too shabbily. If decreasing the refugee numbers is what you're after, early indication is it works.

    Could be weather, but feeling says it's not. Point to consider:

    I read elsewhere the same thing, that a lot less people are moving to the coast, and that wouldn't be because of bad weather.


    Also, the video is hilarious and what's even funnier is that no one knew about it until Erdogan demanded it be censored (a brilliant reaction to a video claiming he censors media, I love it), at which point it was on every news broadcast here, and you just know they were straightfacing as they reported Erdogans reaction and playing it right after -- just to inform the viewers, of course XD
     
  9. Azotez

    Azotez Seventh Year

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    Not saying Financial Times isn't a good source, but it is biased. In their haste to post good news about the agreement, they were clearly out a bit early in making their assessment of the situation, I'd say. A news article from Reuters only a day old will clear it up nicely. Migrant arrivals to Greece rise sharply despite EU-Turkey deal.
    Do not trust the feelings of your heart when judging the value of empirical knowledge, but leave it to the brain and cold logic. Weather clearly has had some influence on the short interval of low numbers, though obviously not all. I think the immigrants were likely somewhat shocked by the EU-Turkey's deal and then Turkey's border aggression. Maybe they needed a weeks time to reassess, gather courage and rethink whether to try alternate routes since even if they get to Greece the Balkan route is sealed shut, preventing further northward movement. More of that below*

    You are waaaay to optimistic my friend and forget human ingenuinty. They will try other routes depending on what happens in Greece now.

    The video certainly is hilarious and I find it a welcome contribution to the debate. It is a good reminder of just who and what we are dealing with, when making arrangements like these with Turkey. Erdogan clearly has no respect for democracy and only tolerates it when he can benefit from it.

    Other news related to the Immigrant Crisis:
    Nato sends patrol to eastern Med to combat people smuggling Was surprised when I noticed this had already gone on for more than a month. I want more. Make it a European coalition Navy if the Americans wants to back out.

    German train line launches women and children only carriages amid sex attack fears
    German train operator: women-only compartments not reaction to New Year attacks
    So it finally came to this in Germany and it makes me very sad. I will be even more so if this will be required in every country. How has this anything to do with the immigrant crisis and the increased amount of muslims in EU you might ask? Well, you know my thoughts.

    As aid agencies from around the world continuesly keep pulling out of greek camps to prevent providing and giving legitimization the the EU-Turkey deal that they view as unfair and inhumane IRC, MSF and UNHCR, immigrants are demonstrating against being held back outside of the Macedonian border (Migrants protest) and how many of them wants to return to Turkey peacefully without a fight waits to be seen.

    *Meanwhile more countries are tightening the borders towards Greece, expecting more immigrants to arrive shortly, if not from Greece then from another route Link
     
  10. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Bump, because relevant figures that are really fascinating.

    In Austria, they had presidential elections. Given that it's a largely ceremonial office (though a little less so than in Germany), it has no immediate implications which should, in theory, leave people free to vote as they really want, without further tactical considerations.

    Here are the results of the first round (German link):

    35.3% -- Hofer/FPÖ (Anti-immigration)
    21.3% -- Van der Bellen/Greens (Anti-FPÖ)

    19.0% -- Griss/Independent
    11.1% -- Khol/Conservatives
    10.9% -- Hundstorfer/Social Democrats

    The relevant candidates are the first two. The important thing is the analysis. For example (margin of error is 8 points):

    Men:

    Hofer/45%
    Van der Bellen/17%
    Griss/12%
    Hundstorfer/12%
    Khol/10%

    Women:

    Hofer/27%
    Griss/26%
    Van der Bellen/22%
    Khol/13%
    Hundstorfer/11%

    And in particular, for those under 29 years old, Hofer has 51% among men and Van der Bellen 28%, whereas among women, van der Bellen has 30%, and Hofer 21%.

    Further, if you separate by education level, it diverges entirely. Those with the minimum required school years and those with a simple apprenticeship break for Hofer, 43% and 51% (Van der Bellen: 12% resp. 11%), whereas those with A-Levels or a university degree break for Van der Bellen, 39% and 35% (Hofer: 13% and 15%).


    I knew it wasn't even, but the starkness is astonishing. I don't see how one can conclude anything else than that immigration protest is A) largely male, and B) a phenomenon of the lower class. The more educated people are, the less likely they are to agree with anti-immigration sentiments, and in fact take a firmly opposing stance (Van der Bellen ran on that explicit platform) -- either because they are more able to look at things rationally and take in the entire complexity, as opposed to superficial slogans and simplistic solutions, or because they are better situated and thus not motivated by things such as job loss, which plays a part in the anti-immigration protests as well.

    Essentially, given the clarity of the figures and the diametrically opposing candidates, you have two co-existing, entirely separated worlds. As such, it's no wonder you can't get both together, either makes no sense to the respective other. And given that in Austria, "poor" people don't exactly starve on the streets, and unemployment is increasing, but largely due to the refugees (among Austrians, it's stable at around 6.7%), it's not immediately clear that improving the economic situation of the lower class will lead to more acceptance. This is a problem, and we'll need solutions for that eventually.
     
  11. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    To a degree, that just mirrors the current rise of populist (usually right-wing ish) candidates, but Höfer is an outlier in one aspect: the youth vote. UKIP has the male, white, lesser-educated demographic, but not the young part. Wilders (Netherlands) has an unusually broad coalition, again weighted slightly towards older people and definitely towards lower education levels. Trump is not dissimilar either: males, older people, white, lower educational attainment. I would not be surprised to find similar statistics for Vlaams Belang (Flanders/Belgium), Front National (France), SD (Sweden), and the AfD (Germany).

    Random tangent re: youth vote: could there be a relation to the FPÖ's stint in government under Haider? Older people less likely to vote FPÖ because of stuff that went down back then?

    More on topic: I wonder what the Eurostats migration statistics will show when the March, and especially April, stats are filled in. January and February showed decreases from July-November 2015, but that's also the weather, and the year on year showed roughly a 50 % (~30000 people) increase over the same months, just last year. (for full disclosure: the year on year for Q4 between 2014 and 2015 was a 130 % increase). Situations aren't identical, though, for various reasons that have been discussed over and over.
     
  12. Dark Belra

    Dark Belra Minister of Magic

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    I think it was rather obvious that it was largely men that were anti immigrant just from some talking points. 'They steal our women' and 'they sexually harass our women' seem like very large indicators.
     
  13. Jaska

    Jaska Second Year

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    Of course men are going to resist millions of foreign men coming into their country for the same reason women would resist if millions of Asian 20-30 year old females would be coming to Europe. And the lower class thing isn't surprising as they're the ones who stand the most to lose. Asylum seekers will move to neighborhoods the lower class lives in and bring with them increased crime, school results will go downhill and their (lower class) children will get worse education as a result.

    Rich people don't have to feel the negative consequences of immigrants coming to their neighborhoods because they usually preach about multiculturalism from their white European areas, eating kebab and being horrified how some people are opposed to Africans and Arabs coming to their country.
     
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    A post that at the same time is racist, sexist, prejudiced against “class”, xenophobic and anti-intellectualism. All without using a single decent argument, quoting facts or making a point besides “lower classes are being opressed by rich and kebabs”. Congratulations! You just proved Sesc points! All of them! You have slogans and power imperious phrases, why bother with content?


    If you have a point of view, at least develop it instead of being a mouth to what other people’s bullshit. Its not that hard. See, a decent argument against multiculturalism:
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/multiculturalism-starts-losing-its-luster-12807.html

    But you’re probably not interested in that, since it doesn't blame the immigrants for all of their problems and actually preaches about actually integrating them.

    Of course the same guy who said that also said that european lower classes are self destructing each other, a la a mix between 1984 and Brave New World, drowning themselves on suicidical pleasures and meaningless pursues, convinced that they are victims of a brutal system when they are actually the main guilty of their lastimable estate, that while very comforting in material pleasures, its empty in meaning.
     
  15. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    I've always liked the possessive 'our' in those statements. Wonderfully... traditional in a 1950's-man-is-the-breadwinner-woman-stays-home sense.

    More to the point, those talking points are actually not indicators per se. If they were, wouldn't you expect a greater share of women to vote for those parties, based on the second statement? I mean, I went looking, and the Sweden Democrats - in a country that's often touted by critics as the example of how not to do migration, sexual harassment included - still have a 9pt (24-15 %) gap between male and female voters. Clearly there seems to be more at work...

    Of course, could be that there are other statements that throw women (as a group) off - I certainly recall some very iffy statements by Trump and various UKIP members regarding women... N=2, though, so yeah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  16. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    It also looks like I wasn't precise enough. Relevant context: in Austria, 19% have the minimum school education, 35% had an apprenticeship. A-levels or higher had 31%. Given this, it can't be the economic situation, since a lot in the former brackets will be solidly middle class.

    It really looks as if it's a function of the education. I wonder if people more open to arguments are more likely to pursue higher education, or if higher education makes people more open to arguments. Probably both ... in which case the push to educate people might help with stabilising society. (Not exactly a new idea, but I didn't think I'd encounter it in this case.)


    Oment: No idea with regards to Haider, but I had a look again and the dominant split really is gender, not age groups. Support for Hofer decreases from the 51% to 41% for men 60+, possible due to the age of the candidate (Hofer is 44 and comes across as youthful), or because of stronger bonds to the traditional parties, but even in that bracket, the gender split is 41%/26%.

    For comparison: Policies like quotas for women in leading positions splits here like 30/50 (men) to 50/30 (women) for/against. A clear gender issue then, IMO, but one that lacks a satisfying explanation. I don't agree with Dark Belra's explanation, for the reasons Oment brought up above.



    Edit: Azotez, post is fine, and demanding punishments gets my frowny face. The point was that I didn't want pointless ad hominems that had nothing to do with the topic. This clearly attacks a post. Jaska wrote something, Invictus thinks it's shit. Happens. If you want to cite passages of his, mine or anyone's posts to call them naive, arrogant, intolerant or whatever you can think of, feel free.
    Edit2: In fact, this is literally what I said in my response to kinetique in the post you quoted. What was unclear here?
     
  17. Azotez

    Azotez Seventh Year

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    Seriously, don't let that guy continue with that shit here. You've already warned him.
     
  18. Dark Belra

    Dark Belra Minister of Magic

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    I think they are honestly pretty decent indicators if only because most women would be talking about sexual harassment is an issue, regardless of immigration. Most women who I have heard talk about the sexual harassment thing in Germany generally said, 'yeah but this is normal even among German men,' rather than blame it all on immigrant men. A rather common feminist talking points about sexual harassment being a large issue within their own communities, at work or in schools and when prompted about how immigrants sexually harass local women, the response would generally go back to, "no different to local men," and then talk about how sexual harassment is generally ignored by local men but is talked about a lot if the culprits are immigrants.

    EDIT: I don't want to make it seem like feminists were not against the New Year's Eve sexual assault case, but rather most were against people turning it into an anti-immigrant talking point by generally pointing to the fact that sexual assault isn't just an immigrant problem but is a general problem of society and sexual assault was only being used to fuel racism and ignored when it doesn't provide a good talking point for racists.

    What I'm somewhat trying to highlight with those talking points, though they are very much cliches at this point and I'm not even sure that they are made seriously anymore, is that very often these anti-immigrant people often focus on protecting women, children and jobs. Note that they are very often used in the possessive as you said. Our women, our children and our jobs. I find it hard to believe that women would make anti-immigration talking points using 'our' rather than local. Hence why I thought that it was generally obvious that immigrant issues are generally something men keep bringing up. I just thought the gender divide in this topic was something that was plain to see.

    I'm not trying to provide an explanation why immigration issues have a gender divide. My only possible explanation would be what Oment said, it would seem that generally anti-immigration politicians also have anti-women tendencies. Or at the very least, they only care about women as a very useful tool that they say needs protecting, infantilizing them in the process. I can imagine that this kind of talk would not be popular among modern women.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  19. Azotez

    Azotez Seventh Year

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    There is of course more reasons than just this one mentioned. But you are on to something. Every time a asian woman comes to Denmark to work as au'pair and ends up married to the husband of the family they work at, the wife and local women always blame it partly on the au'pair, nevermind it was the wife's feministic tendencies, long hours of work and distance in the relationship that drove the husband into the arms of another woman.

    I do not know about asylum seekers, but besides those, it is a pretty common sight in here. As the percentage of immigrant children in the classes increase, the grades and education children receive will deteriorate rapidly. The solution most often used is by moving your kids to another school. Sadly, that is not always a solution that is available.

    This is true. In fact you see these pro-multiculturalistic humanists and politicians propagating their lies on television, in papers and online about all the benefits, completely ignoring all the downsides or outright refusing to admit there is any. They argue how we should all be some accepting and how they themselves at least once a month enjoy kebab from the local pizzaria, while living in areas with less than 1% immigrants. They either live in neighborhoods where children don't see a single black student in class or if they live in the larger cities, they send their kids to private schools.

    Hypocrisy at its best.

    Meanwhile we have to listen to sanctimonious and poisonous idiots like this guy who thinks he knows best, but really only knows just enough to think that everyone else is idiots. There is no end the the incessant stream of adjective these people are willing to use to force your opinion into the dirt. I am surprised he hasn't labeled you a baby killing, nazi criminal, shit eating mongrel yet.

    Really it is people like this that are the true cancer to our european societies. These people would turn a blind eye to rape and murder rather than be proven wrong in their "morally superior" standpoint.

    *@Secs I fail to see how my request was irrelevant, but I wasn't demanding it and will respect your superior administrative judgement on this. I simply wanted to keep the post on this threat relevant and impersonal as last time it took a turn for the worse. Then, Invictus was one of the people forcing it down the drain. Moreover, his most recent post was a far cry from impersonal, and targeted imo the man as much as the arguments. - If that is to be the standard, who am I to deny it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  20. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    What on earth was the point of your post, Sesc? It has little to do with the topic at hand and it honestly looks like to me like you're just trying to say "See, only the less educated people oppose immigration on a massive scale as this one."

    You say something about being more open to arguments when your education is above that of the basic (meaning elementary + high school, or whatever you call it in your neck of the woods), but I don't see any arguments being presented here, or in general, at all.

    @Dark Belra

    Do tell, when was the last time the local, native populace of Germany sexually harassed women on such a massive scale?

    Does sexual harassment exist with the native populations of Europe? Sure.

    Does it exist on that kind of scale? Fuck no.

    Does it get dealt with? Yep.

    As for the presumption that an anti-immigration stance could somehow translate to being anti-women, that is just plain ludicrous. I have four sisters and out of the five of us I am the voice of moderation (strange as that may sound to some here) when it comes to talking about this immigration issue, so take from that what you will.