1. Hey Guest, welcome back to DLP

    As you can see, we've changed our look. We've migrated from vBulletin to the Xenforo forum system. There may be issues or missing functionality, if you find anything or have feedback, please check out the new Xenforo Migration Feedback forum.

    Our dark ("Dark Lord Potter") theme is under heavy development. We also have a light ("Light Lord Potter") theme for those happier with a light background and darker text.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Hey Guest! Are you any good at cooking? Got a favourite recipe that you love to cook or bring out to impress that special someone? Why not share it! A new forum called The Burrow has opened and it's all about homemaking!

Manchester Arena attack

Discussion in 'Politics' started by bolko7, May 23, 2017.

  1. Dagro

    Dagro First Year

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    45
    I will gladly trade my 'security' if it means I can freely travel around in city centres without being stopped every few hundred metres by security personnel. You took hits because of weak arguments and I haven't seen you really respond to except 'yeah yeah SJW'.

    This is where it quickly went downhill. Are you honestly living in such a filter bubble that you believe this? When people call you on it, do you really think that calling those a SJW who disagrees with you is in any way productive or even helpful to your own argument?

    If I were a muslim, calls for me to denounce something, that I had no action in, do not condone or support in anyway would be really hurtful. That somebody demands this from me alone, reveals that the person, or parts of the society I live in, do not recognize me as a peaceful and integrated part of the community based on my religion.

    As a german I don't feel obligated to feel guilty, responsible or sad every time some neo-nazi idiot kills somebody for their skin colour. Yes, every citizen should be politically active or at least aware. But that doesn't mean you can or should guilt trip whole groups of people for something a small group of radical individuals did.

    And all that does not even touch upon how you (and others not in this thread but in the public discussion) advocate for the dismantling of civil rights and liberties for some kind of abstract security feeling that can not ever protect you from a really determined attacker.

    I hope I didn't win the bad spelling/grammar 'contest'... *cough*
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  2. Blinker

    Blinker DA Member DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    I'm afraid I simply disagree with you on this. If we searched everyone near a plausible terrorist target (e.g. any crowded area) then everyone in any city in the UK would be searched multiple times a day.

    Ignoring any consideration of rights to privacy (which I imagine won't weigh heavily on you) the expense of such a policy, and the cost in terms of time would be gargantuan and would far outweigh any amount saved (being aware that as a government you have to accept that money and lives have an exchange rate).

    It simply is an unpleasant cost of "doing business", the methods you are suggesting to stop it would do far more damage than any terrorist could dream of.
     
  3. bolko7

    bolko7 Second Year DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Messages:
    62
    Here come a shocking true, what I meant by this was this. Can we stooped with ppl calming that being Muslism = being good. Cuz after this attacked there will be 20 tv shows having Muslims saying Islam is not about killing or it was not done my Muslims(but by mad men). I am tired of hearing it. Everyone know that but after every attack more and more time if given to explaining this then ppl that where hurt. Muslim = ppl (they are good and bad) that is all I want, what I do not want is this. When Police make a arrest (that is not after a attacked) ppl first line o thinking is they are bigots (like here, one could notice that I am not that great with writing and might not meant everything exactly but some rather then give me chance to expling attacked me :) SJW want to give chances to everyone but me ??) Why I am coming so hard after the Police arrest, well in Berlin, there was a chance to capture terrorist before but Cops ignored it. Why I do not know but I can only assume part of it was cuz he was Musialm and Germany is having immigrant problems so Police did not want to start something. If security forces fear to arrest ppl cuz they are Muslims and might get labeled bigots they will not be very effective

    Dagro thanks for you post I hope I a smaller bigot then you think

    PS. Once more sorry for my english. And I am drooping this topic whole cya.

    Ok one more

    Accepting kids deaths as a price for anything is too much
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  4. enembee

    enembee The Nicromancer Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Murias
    High Score:
    2,451
    It doesn't matter what the security were doing at the event because we have no evidence that the bomber ever attempted to enter.

    In fact, the mere presence of security forces actually served their function perfectly. If you think the loss of life was bad at the end of the event, can you imagine how it would have been if the bomber had gained entrance?

    Not in any significant enough numbers (nor, quite frankly, psychic enough) to stop someone walking up to a group of kids with a bomb in their backpack and detonating it (see July 7th bombings).

    My argument isn't stupid. It's pragmatic. There's probably a major concert every night of the week in every UK city. Every weekend we have ~15 Premier League teams playing and attracting tens of thousands. Even if we had the money and inclination to run massive security projects on every one of these events, what would stop terrorists just picking smaller events like plays or busy cinema screeings? Or blowing themselves up on crowded tube trains? Or on a bus. Or just kicking in someone's front door and massacring their family?

    What you're suggesting is infeasible and ridiculous. We cannot live in a world dictated by the fear of terrorist attacks.

    Yes, the risk of being bombed is absolutely the price of business in the western world. That has been the case ever since gunpowder became a thing.

    People are acting like Islamic terrorism is this great overwhelming threat that suddenly popped into existence and everything has to stop to combat it. The damage done by Islamic terrorists pale in comparison when you consider separatist violence from the IRA and ETA and a slew of other domestic terror threats that Europe has been dealing with for decades.

    You know what we did then? We just carried on. Exactly like how we will now.

    ---------- Post automerged at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

    Don't be a cunt.
     
  5. Blinker

    Blinker DA Member DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    According to the ONS, in 2015 there were 50 victims of assorted "land transport accidents" under the age of 14.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...nssummarytablesenglandandwalesreferencetables

    Assuming that we could save at least one of these deaths by reducing the speed limit everywhere to 5mph, is it a disgrace that we don't? Or would there perhaps be an excessive price to such a policy?
     
  6. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Holy Moose Empire
    High Score:
    1,826
    Erandil

    It's realistically impossible to always account for every threat. I could get knifed going to get groceries. The chance of that is probably higher than me becoming a victim of a terrorist attack, true. But I also have a higher chance of defending myself from a mugger than a bomb.

    People are outraged when someone says that living in a big city carries an unavoidable burden of having to deal with possible terror attacks. I think it's true. It's either accepting the risk or absolute, far-reaching police state where security trumps personal liberties.

    That said, I don't like big events such as concerts and avoid them for a range of reasons. Possible terrorist attack is one of them. Probably ridiculous, given where I live, but fuck it. I can't be rational 100% of the time.
     
  7. kira and light

    kira and light DA Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    Germany
    bolko7 wow, the sheer ignorance is astounding, do you really think society has enough man power or money to constantly guard every single event with thousand men.

    I assure you, even if we had a 1984 society, a determined suicide bomber or just a guy with a shotgun will always be able to kill many people no matter how much surveillance.

    Do you know what the best response to such a event is ... doing nothing it's idiots like you who cause mass hysteria who want something to be done which in the end is useless, devours tax money, harms our privacy and stealing everybodys precious time.

    Do you really want to be searched every 5 minutes which would slow down our whole economy and probably not even save anybody.

    Lol, your comment about people thinking being Muslims = being good is hilarious fear and hate for Muslims is at a alltime high comparable to after 9/11 you really belive Muslims get any special treatment pretty sure that some innocent people get the shit beaten out after that because idiots like you can't differentiate a whole group from radical maniacs.

    Socially stigmatizing muslims will only create a enviorment of intolerance and hate towards them, which will lead to them not being able to socially integrate, which is the perfect breeding ground for increasing the number of radical maniacs so in the end you will only create more.

    Terrorist, Nazis etc. are often losers who don't feel like a part of society which are the perfect victims for radical groups who can manipulate them and give them a feeling of acceptance and brotherhood.

    While Religion can be a factor in radicalizing people shit like this would still happen without religion, it's just a part of humanity, that people who are not integrated, uneduacated, poor etc. will search for a reason to inflict violence against the accepted groups.

    I do not want to make light of this sad situation but people everyday die, due to the most ridiculous situations, accidents etc. in far higher numbers which could be prevented if some money would be pumped to fix this issues but you usually won't hear in the news from a guy who broke his neck due to companies saving money in safety measures in construction work etc.

    While this is sad, people not related to the victims will move on and should not let this fear effect their private life the chances of being run over by a car, getting killed for your money or slipping on a banana peel and falling down some stairs are higher than this happening to you.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  8. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,177
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    Britain, France and Germany have had many terrorist attacks in the last several years.

    At least compared to Poland, which had none.
     
  9. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,532
    Moving the goalposts a tiny bit there, aren't you?

    So have Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, unless you expand "last several" to "last baker's dozen".

    I ask you again to elaborate your point and to actually engage in discussion instead of this pseudo-sealioning you've got going on.

    Assuming makes an ass out of u and me, as the saying goes. I've no idea why they didn't get Amri for his apparent involvement in the drugs trade, but where you assume malice, I would like to point out that Hanlon's Razor is also a thing. It's not as if incompetent police is anything new anywhere in the world - they are human and thus prone to errors.
     
  10. Joe

    Joe The Reminiscent Exile Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia
    High Score:
    1,800
    The individual who carried out this attack may have been raised Muslim, he may have attended mosques his whole life, but the moment he decided to kill 20 or so children he forfeited his membership card to that religion.

    We have this argument every time an attack happens - and given the wave of religious terrorism over the last thirty years, that's understandable, but it's becoming a bit inexcusable. Same song stuck on repeat, baby. Losing that beat we can dance to. Muslims are no more responsible for this attack than you are.

    The only one responsible is the radicalised extremist who used his religion as a veil, a cover, a shield of fucking arrogance to justify causing this harm. He was wrong, misguided, and a coward.

    If you're willing to blame Muslims (and I'm always happy to see most of you bastards not willing to do so) for this nastiness, then you're part of the problem. And for every asshole there's a hundred good people, trying to live their lives peacefully - either under the tenets of their religion or not, they just want to live healthy, happy lives with people they love in peace. Like the Muslim taxi drivers who drove people away from the Manchester arena for free, or the Muslim surgeons who spent hours upon hours Monday night fighting to save the lives of the injured.

    Tl;dr: The moment you blame an entire group of people - race or religion - for the actions of a few, you do more harm than good. You add a poisoned drop of ignorance and hate into the glass of radicalised Kool-Aid that these assholes use to justify their crimes. Stop it.
     
  11. kinetique

    kinetique Groundskeeper

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Edit: on second thoughts, never mind.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  12. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Empire City
    High Score:
    2810
    Well...

    ...we just need to 'stop being tolerant', eh? But oh, banning! That's too much! That isn't the logical consequence of what you said! (/sarcasm)

    I call bigotry when I see it, and I'm no 'SJW'. So don't think you can hide behind ad hominems; you said what you said, own it.

    So, returning to the above, stigmatizing people will really make them want to work with you. That strategy can't possibly fail.

    Believe it or not, working with community leaders to find the people who pose a threat is what governments already do. The long and short of it is that you have no real idea of how counterterrorism actually works.

    We can't catch everyone; some people will slip through the net. Security forces have to be lucky 100% of the time, but perps have to be lucky only once.
     
  13. Immet

    Immet Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    211
    To me, it's incredibly frustrating hearing about terrorist attacks and hoping that it isn't a Muslim attacker then finding out it is.

    You just know that there will be the same voices of Muslims condemning it but not being heard, people calling for greater abuses of freedom and privacy for a terrible but small problem, others in a backlash against the hate being too free about some things that really should change in Muslim communities and thankfully a lot of people being willing to help.

    But at least theres a conversation being had even if most people are either talking past each other or not being heard.

    Compare that to America where the greatest terrorist threat is right wing white extremists.
    • the FBI says that they are the biggest terrorist threat
    • they've killed more people in the US in terrorist attacks since 2002
    • they've infiltrated police forces and are organising infiltrators to deliberately obstruct justice
    • they fucking violently took over government property. Seriously, what the fuck America? How is this even a thing?
    However there's little talk about it and the current US government has changed the definition of terrorism to ignore them. For all of the worry about Islamic terrorism you should be way more worried about that.
     
  14. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    659
    High Score:
    1,802
    It is kind of sad how whenever one of these attacks happens, all the usual suspects don't even wait for the bodies to get cold before jumping on it to push the same political agendas that come up every time terrorism happens. Hell, this thread stopped talking about the actual attack about four posts in to focus on debating Islamaphobia and taking potshots at whichever side of the political spectrum the poster doesn't like.
     
  15. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,532
    At above: in part it was because there was actually little to discuss that hasn't been rehashed already. Suicide bombing is known, there was no known face of the perpetrator to turn the murdering twat into a nihilistic pin-up boy, and while much could be said about British journalists being obnoxious toerags, that isn't news per se either.

    In actual news: three men were arrested earlier today - whether that'll go anywhere remains to be seen. For those keeping count, we're on four arrests at the moment. Home Secretary Rudd suspects the perpetrator did not act alone, but for now they remain suspicions and no proof. The independent anti-terrorism taskforce did raise the threat level to the maximum, suggesting there might be intelligence of people wanting to follow suit. (Whether that's linked in an organisation or copycat behaviour is, naturally, unknown.)

    Oh, and if the US could keep its leaking to Trump-related business, UK intelligence would appreciate it.
     
  16. joshuafaramir

    joshuafaramir Unspeakable

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    709
    Location:
    Elsewhere
    An ideology which holds martyrdom as one of its highest honors, going as far to provide certain divine rewards for the martyrs is going to vastly produce more suicide bombers, as there is a straight line from the ideology to the action. While it's conceivable to read the Bible and other religious scriptures and be inspired to become a suicide bomber, there just isn't the same theological justification.

    tl;dr. There's something fundamentally wrong with Islam to produce such high numbers of terrorist/fanatics/suicide bombers compared to any other major religion in the planet.
     
  17. Lindsey

    Lindsey Order Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    858
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Christianity is based on a person sacrificing themselves for the greater good. It would be horrifyingly easy to justify terrorism or suicide bombing within the Bible (hell, look at the IRA in the 90s for a great example).

    The main reason for this happening is less to do with religion, but instead with circumstance. Christians tend to be much wealthier than their counterparts, even in regions such as China and India. Not only that, but for the last 300 years, Christians dominated the world. Rarely has a Christian felt like a secondary citizen or the desperation that creates fundamentalists. If they had, I wouldn't doubt it for a second that they would turn to terrorism.

    A large reason for Islamic terrorism is how the West treated them in the past. Their guerrilla warfare after colonization in the early 1900s, lead to suicide bombing to be acceptable. They just use religion to justify it instead of independence/freedom.

    If you switched the middle east status with the west (meaning the Middle East were the wealthy and powerful ones while the west struggled), you would probably see Christian suicide bombers all over the place. It is pretty easy to justify doing something horrible with most religions as biblical times were a pretty awful place.

    tldr: suicide bombing became mainstream due to the independence and inter-fighting due to colonization of the middle east and Africa... just back then it was for 'independence'. They just tied it to religion to make it more acceptable. The same thing would have happened in Christianity if in the same situation.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  18. Innomine

    Innomine Auror Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    639
    Location:
    New Zealand
    High Score:
    4,500
    I think this is one of the main points when it comes to understanding why the middle east produces the most terrorists at this point in time. It's not the only factor, but it's certainly the precipitating context.

    The other way to look at this is to look at the long game. The wider strategy. What's the purpose behind these attacks, and what's the outcome in the long term? The individual suicide bombers may not have a plan, but the organisers certainly do. The west has vastly superior militaries, economies and technology etc, so right now, the Middle East is fighting us the only way they can, guerilla warfare. And it's prominence comes off the backs of the successes of 9/11. And I call that a success because it forced the US into two extraordinarily costly wars, which the WaPo estimates at somewhere between $4 trillion to $6 trillion.

    And what have they achieved with that money? Little to nothing. And for more context let's go back to the opening statement that bolko7 made:
    This is the exact reason why they do what they do. They are trying to bait us into more economically draining wars, as they know it's the best/only way to hurt us. When we drain money away from education, healthcare and infrastructure in order to pay for the ever increasing cost of 'wars' and 'security', the terrorists are the ones that win, not us. When we tear our societies apart over fear and suspicion of the second largest religion on the planet, they are the ones who win, not us.

    As others in this thread have pointed out, there is no simple or easy solution here, no way to 'quickly' fix the problem. There are just more and less costly actions. And of all the choices we have, I would prefer it if we didn't fight on their terms - or fall prey to the bait offered us.
     
  19. Arthellion

    Arthellion Groundskeeper

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Messages:
    324
    High Score:
    0
    Lindsey Eh I think the problem is less circumstantial and more theological. Both religions have a text that they believe is from God. The interpretation of those texts can lead to extremism. For example it was the perversion of the Christian texts that supported the Crusades and slavery.

    There is a difference however. In the Christian faith you have the old and New Testament. Nearly all verses used to support brutal actions can be found in the Old Testament. The Old Testament's purpose however is in highlighting the depravity of man and it's need for a Savior. In the New Testament, you have that Savior appear in the person Jesus. Jesus fulfills the old law and implements a new covenant between God and humanity. Ultimately meaning that the extreme laws of the Old Testament have been done away with. You have the apostles in Acts decide that the way Christians should live is to "abstain from sexual immorality and drunkenness, love all people, obey the government over you, seek peace with all people,etc"

    That is inthe governing document of Christianity and made pretty clear. It's one of the reasons many in the upper echelons of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages was so against the translation of the Bible because they knew the common man would call them out on it. Martin Luther eventually did.

    In the case of Islam (I'd need to do a more in depth study to fully do this justice) there is less of a divide. While the Bible clearly does away from the horrific extremes of the Old Testament, there is really no "update" to The Q'uran that does the same thing. So you have extremists with more "theological support" for their actions.

    Just to clarify, I'm not defending the view that muslims need to be banned or are terrible people. There are far more peaceful adherents to Islam than there are extremists and trying to discriminate based on that is appalling. That said, Islam, as a religion, lends itself more easily to extremism than other religions.
     
  20. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Empire City
    High Score:
    2810
    I'm going to assume from this statement that you've not studied much about the Qur'an, because that depiction is not a particularly accurate one. We have several Muslim members who could explain things further, but it's depiction in (particularly Western) media as being a text prone to extremism is an exaggeration; like the Bible, the meat of ideology is in the interpretation. Wahhabism and Salafist dogma, which is largely responsible for groups like Al Qaida, is itself an extremist interpretation of the source material.

    There is little to be gained by casting the blame on the religion. Terrorists of all stripes (Islamist terrorists, Christian terrorists, eco-terrorists, neo-fascists, Sovereign Citizen terrorists, racial supremacist terrorists, etc.) have a lot more in common with one another then their disparate ideological bases would have if their reasoning was truthful.

    A more accurate way to think of them is that they are a collection of violent social outcasts who latch onto extremist ideologies in order to justify their violence against society.