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New Information from Pottermore

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Taure, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I don't know how new this actually is, because Pottermore doesn't really organise JKR's writings very neatly, but I just came across the Pottermore article on the history of the Quidditch World Cup.

    https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/history-of-the-quidditch-world-cup

    There's a few things in here that are of particular interest:

    1. Alternative Quidditch rules.

    These rules open up the possibility of making the game a bit more sensible and still stay relatively canon compatible. Just have Hogwarts make the decision to introduce World Cup rules.

    2. The existence of wizarding New Spain.

    This is really the first indication that wizarding colonialism took place. For example, Magical USA was explicitly never ruled by any European powers, being a largely lawless place until 1693, when American wizards came together to found MACUSA and govern themselves. But if there's a magical New Spain (rather than a magical Aztec), surely this means Spanish wizards have conquered central America.

    3. Mass obliviation is possible

     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  2. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid First Year

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    It might be just a crackpot theory they came up with and not actually be possible. Althought it would make sense that they have one given they'd potentially need to memory charm entire cities when shit got loose like in the Fantastic Beasts movie.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  3. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Wasn't this sorta substantiated in FB when they used the rain to make all the muggles forget after the thunderbird flew away? That potion or whatever they took up into the sky. I think it was a potion. I never really rationalized that the fact that a potion could a) disperse that much and b) be used to wipe memories.

    Cause I've always assumed that potions worked on magicals only. That could be a theory I've made by fanon. I'm not sure of an instance when canon ever talked about potions being used on muggles.
     
  4. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    I rewatched FB yesterday. It wasn't a potion, it was the venom of the swooping evil (the dinosaur-looking bird he could unfurl like a yoyo) and Newt said that if diluted, it could erase memories. Thunderbird+venom+magic=obliviation rain.

    Muggles can't make potions, but magic works on them, and a potion is just magic in a physical form. Also in FB, Newt whipped up some quick potion to cure Jacob's murtlap bite.
     
  5. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Makes sense. I forgot that it was the venom. Some reason I thought it was a potion.
     
  6. TheLazyReader

    TheLazyReader Groundskeeper

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    Wait, are the goblins in some actual role of servitude to wizards, like the elves?
     
  7. MrBucket

    MrBucket Third Year

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    That has to be my favorite Pottermore article. Full of fun stuff. First time I read it, I knew I was in for a little treat when I saw "Attack of the Killer Forest".

    And the article was published on March 14, 2014.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Not really, but they still don't have all the same rights as wizards.
     
  8. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Returning to the New Spain point, I think it's interesting to contrast it with what was said in the Pottermore article regarding the history of magical North America. I'll extract the most salient points from that article:


    Fourteenth Century – Seventeenth Century




    Seventeenth Century and Beyond



    Rappaport’s Law




    1920s Wizarding America



    Also the article on MACUSA:




    To this we can add these entries from the Ministers for Magic article:



    So let’s attempt to summarise this information:


    1. Before 1492, Old World wizards already knew about the Americas and had some contact with the native American wizards, which were similar in number (relative to the Muggle population) as in the rest of the world. For context, the population of all the Americas at this time was likely around 50 million Muggles, whereas there were 60 million Muggles in Europe alone. In North America, the Muggle population was likely around 7 million. So we’re talking about a relatively small wizarding community compared to the old world, and likely focused in Central and South America.

    2. Despite this pre-Columbian contact, relations between New World and Old World wizards were not close enough for the native Americans to adopt the wand. So we can conclude that contact was sporadic and there was no significant trade.

    3. Further, native American magical culture was not socially organised. They had no magical government.

    4. When the Muggles started migrating to the Americas, wizards went with them. These wizards initially merged with native American magical society, who welcomed the European wizards.

    5. When the native American Muggles started dying out through war and disease, this “struck a blow at the unity of the magical community”. This could be a reference to the global magical community, or more specifically the magical community in North America. I suspect the latter, given the lack of significant contact between American and European wizards prior to this. Which suggests that the immigrant European wizards started to develop a separate society of their own in America.

    6. At this point there was still no magical government in North America, and no magical law enforcement.

    7. Wizard migration to North America dropped dramatically after 1692, and many who had migrated there previously decided to leave. After this, Muggleborns made up a significant part of the base of the new wizarding population, but once Rappaport’s law gets put in place in 1790, basically everyone will be “pure-blood” by old world definitions within a generation or two.

    8. It is notable that at the time that anti-Muggle sentiment was growing in America, in Britain a Minister was getting voted out of office for being too anti-Muggle.

    9. Finally, after years of lawlessness, North American wizards come together and decide to create a government to rule over themselves. The article states this was “the first time that the North American wizarding community came together to create laws for themselves”. But it’s also called the Magical Congress of the United States of America. So it’s not clear if it includes Canada or not. Certainly Canada has a Quidditch team, but so does Scotland. It’s possible that MACUSA originally included Canada but they later went their separate ways.

    So what conclusions can we draw?


    What this appears to suggest is that the origin of magical nations is simply in a group of wizards who consider themselves a part of one community coming together (via representatives), choosing leaders from among themselves and deciding on laws to regulate that group. Interestingly this is not tied to the existence of a Muggle state at all, but rather to a magical population, which suggests that the precise territory of these states may not be necessarily clear at the time of their founding, but over time would likely become established by custom.


    Since wizards are choosing their own governments from their own people in a manner divorced from the Muggle state, it suggests an answer to what happens when a Muggle state takes over another one: the wizards simply ignore it. When the Ottoman Empire takes over Egypt, the same wizarding government continues to administer Egypt. When the British take it from the Ottomans, the magical government continues. The wizards watch the wars and conquests of their Muggle brethren with a mixture of bemusement and embarrassment, and then continue their lives as normal.


    Another interesting thing is that wizarding Britain (not England) appears to have been a single administrative unit in the wizarding world long before it was in the Muggle world. Presumably this means that British wizards considered themselves to be a single community when they created the Wizards’ Council to represent and govern them.


    HOWEVER, the above state of affairs does not always hold.


    Firstly, wizards can get involved in Muggle wars. We know from the Malfoy family article that they joined the Norman invasion of England. Post-statute of secrecy, magical warfare appears to be forbidden by the ICW (see the Crimean War comment). However, it’s clear that World War 1 was not just a conflict between Muggle nations, but also between magical states, so this rule has been flouted on at least one occasion. It seems likely that all sides decided to help their Muggle counterparts in order to counter everyone else doing the same, and thus magical states all got sucked in where they were supposed to keep themselves separate. Similarly, the British Ministry’s response regarding the American Revolutionary War -- “sitting this one out” -- implies that they don’t sit all of them out.


    Secondly, wizards can get involved in the conquest of other wizards. The existence of a magical New Spain is significant, because a magical New Spain is simply incompatible with a magical Aztec, Maya, Inca etc. It’s possible that European magical diseases wiped out the local population in an analogy to the Muggle world, but it’s also possible (likely, even, given that disease likely wouldn’t finish the job) that Spanish wizards conquered the local magical societies alongside their Muggle partners. This occured before the Statute of Secrecy so it’s not unknown for wizards to fight in Muggle territorial wars (see the Malfoys) but it’s the first example we have of wizards not just joining a Muggle war, but actively conquering the parallel magical society.


    So the answer to the question of what rule determines which magical states exist seems to be “there isn’t a rule”. Sometimes magical nations are created by the spontaneous democratic act of a group of wizards. Sometimes a Muggle conflict is entirely Muggle and has zero impact on magical governments (US Revolutionary War). Sometimes a Muggle conquest involves wizards but only has an impact on the governance of the Muggle world (Norman invasion). Other times a Muggle conquest comes with a magical conflict as well, in which the wizards fight for dominance (Spanish Empire).
     
  9. MrBucket

    MrBucket Third Year

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    A map of the world from the wizarding perspective, especially over time, would be pretty cool.
     
  10. 99redbloons

    99redbloons Third Year DLP Supporter DLP Bronze Supporter

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    "In Europe, witches and wizards married and were friends with No-Majs; in America, No-Majs were increasingly regarded as the enemy. In short, Rappaport’s Law drove the American wizarding community, already dealing with an unusually suspicious No-Maj population, still deeper underground."

    This is an interesting contrast to fanon where I've regularly seen the author state that you must have at least one muggle/no-maj grandparent, and that America is a perfect blend of muggle technology and magical might. I also find it pretty funny that despite this common fanon fallacy that the British wizards are far more tolerant towards their muggle neighbors than the MACUSA are.
     
  11. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Here's another one:

    Apparently, Assyria is still a country in the wizarding world.
     
  12. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    That doesn't make much sense, unless there was an even earlier schism between Muggle and Magical governments predating the Statute.
     
  13. Download

    Download Supreme Mugwump DLP Supporter

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    I think you're presuming too much about wizards caring what muggles call themselves.
     
  14. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    No, I mean that if Assyria collapsed, it's magical society collapsed with it given that this occurred before the Statute of Secrecy. There shouldn't be a country by that name in the modern era. At most I would think it be the name of a region.
     
  15. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Magical people had their own separate governments well before the Statute of Secrecy though. For example, the Wizards' Council was ruling magical Britain from as early as the 1200s, at which time England and Scotland were two different nations in the Muggle world. As described in Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts, the Statute of Secrecy mostly made official that which was already common practice.
     
  16. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    Mmm. Without more than an offhand mention, I'm still inclined to doubt the survival of a country from 2500 BC to present day. Maybe the Magicals in that area took the name for their nation when the societies split.
     
  17. Download

    Download Supreme Mugwump DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, I don't think they have to be linked. If wizards were happy to cooperate and form a nation during that time while the muggle disintegrated, I don't think that is that strange a concept. It's clear that wizards have a very different sense of nationalism from muggles. Their loyalty is to other wizards with similar views.
     
  18. TheTycat

    TheTycat Second Year

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    Or the Assyrian wizards survived the fall of their empire and everything since, just like the Assyrian muggles. They're still around today as a minority group in the middle east.
     
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