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News (that doesn't deserve its own thread)

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by Taure, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. MonkeyEpoxy

    MonkeyEpoxy Prisoner DLP Supporter

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    Today in career suicide:

    Don't forget this is the same dude who said, "White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization — how did that language become offensive?”

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/14/politics/steve-king-rape-incest-comments/index.html
     
  2. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    @MonkeyEpoxy

    Well, if Steve believes in Adam and Eve, then indeed, there would be no humans today.
     
  3. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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  4. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Moderator DLP Supporter

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    How much of a drop could there have been? Did he hang himself with a sheet? Not feeding the conspiracy, I just know fuck all about what's been said already and haven't been actively following it.
     
  5. Silirt

    Silirt Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    They don't have vaulted ceilings in federal prisons. The highest the cell could have gone would be about eight feet, and there wouldn't be anything from which to hang the rope. I read this report about the conditions of the prison and it seems to be up to code in terms of monitoring.
    https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/nym/NYM_prea.pdf
     
  6. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You can simulate a pretty high drop by tying a short length of rope/bedding around something high up, balance on a chair and then jump as high as you can away from the chair. Gives you a bit of extra length to work with to try and make it a painless death. That would depend on how the cell was laid out, however, and how serious you are about committing suicide. If you do it wrong there's a change of paralysing yourself from the neck down rather than dying, which I'd consider a fate worse than death.
     
  7. Innomine

    Innomine Headmaster ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That seems like a very elaborate situation. Occam’s razor etc.

    I think it’s easy to propose either argument in this case. Either murder or suicide is equally plausible. None of us will ever know the answer, depending on the reports.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  8. Silirt

    Silirt Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    From Washington Examiner:
    The 66-year-old Epstein was found unresponsive Saturday around 6:30 a.m. He had reportedly used a bedsheet to fashion a noose and hang himself from the top of a bunk bed. When guards found the financier, they attempted to resuscitate him, while saying “breathe, Epstein, breathe.”
    Also Washington Examiner:
    Epstein had apparently killed himself by kneeling toward the floor and strangling himself with the bedsheet, a law enforcement source told the New York Post. Epstein had attempted to commit suicide a few weeks prior to his death.

    Bunk beds are around six feet (2m) tall, and that's if you can tie something to the very top. It's not enough clearance to hang yourself, so basically his only way of dying was to try to cut off his airway and willpower himself to death. That doesn't explain the broken bones in his neck, so my guess is some amount of the guards 'malfunctioned' the security cameras and strangled him.
     
  9. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That's my way of thinking about this. It's easy to get sucked into the conspiracy mindset, but it's equally plausible for the guards to have just been lazy.
     
  10. Innomine

    Innomine Headmaster ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The real shame here, in my opinion, is all the people that Epstein might have rolled on just sighed in relief. Regardless of what happened, that is the outcome, and that outcome sucks.

    This should not have occurred, regardless of whether it was bad governance or murder. There is no justice here.
     
  11. Psychotic Cat

    Psychotic Cat Headmaster

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    At the very least, him being taken off of suicide watch is dodgy as fuck and heads should roll for it.
     
  12. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    On the contrary, that's more than enough. You sound like you're forgetting that people committing suicide aren't actively trying to kill themselves. As for the broken bone in the neck, that happens when people jump and the noose breaks their fall.

    Apparently, they were asleep and forged their logs.

    This, on the other hand...
     
  13. Silirt

    Silirt Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    What did he mean by this.
    There are problems with this.
    [​IMG]
    Trump is 6'3", and I'm guessing Melania would be looking down and admiring Epstein's heels if he were wearing them instead of closing her eyes and pretending to be somewhere else. There are other pictures that corroborate this estimate. Epstein's not as tall as Trump, but he's not vertically challenged either. Someone who is six feet tall can't kill himself by jumping off a bed if his feet only have five and a half feet(consider the highest place on the bed to which the rope can be tied and the length of the rope itself, at minimum) to fall before hitting the ground. If his feet hit the ground, even if the rope is at tension first, he won't die(the rope wouldn't have been at tension first, his feet were not secured). This is literally why they call it hanging, because it doesn't work if your feet hit the ground, the momentum transfers through your body. The WE source I cited says he was discovered on his knees, meaning no attempt was made to keep his feet from hitting the ground, which is why the source figures that he strangled himself be 'kneeling toward the ground'.
    Consider this artist's rendering:
    upload_2019-8-15_23-44-16.png
    It's like he's trying to pull the bed down with his neck, but he's not actually doing any pulling, he's just leaning forward and trying to strangle himself. There's no jump required for this, but it's a slow, painful way to die and there's a possibility of it not working, which is why he was discovered alive and the guards stated they made an attempt to revive him.
    WAPO:
    Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

    Basically, any self inflicted neck snap is virtually impossible here because of the height of the bed and Epstein's height, and it doesn't line up with the observations of how the body was discovered. Self inflicted strangulation is possible, provided enough time, and it's what the WE source seems to think he did, it's what the prison seems to think he did, but it doesn't explain the broken bones in his neck.

    Right, so no alibi. I checked and apparently there were no security cameras in his cell, so either there weren't any or it's being suppressed. I understand that security cameras in cells are a serious invasion of privacy which is why in many cases they wouldn't have them, but he was supposed to be on suicide watch, so privacy was supposed to be out the window.

    The prison is trying to spin this as extreme negligence and media outlets are essentially going along with it, but really it's just the worst cover job since the Mexican War. In the Metropolitan Correctional Center, there hasn't been a suicide in 21 years, but it's definitely not because the guards are super nice: https://gothamist.com/2018/06/19/mcc_jail_human_rights_torture.php By contrast, the guards physically abuse inmates and cover it up; the reason there hasn't been a suicide is because of the ordinarily incredibly close monitoring to which the inmates are subjected, so the prior probability of suicide is close to zero.
     
  14. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    Scandle after scandle...
     
  15. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    The notion that Epstein, who was 6' tall, hung himself by tying a rope to a 6' bed and jumping is simply assinine. The physics just don't work for it. A hanging death is basically just a sharp jerk at the right place that snaps the spinal cord and causes near-by death; asphyxiation only enters the picture if someone seriously fucked up (or is unbelievably cruel). And there's no possible way Epstein had the space to create the necessary jerk.

    However, it's pretty obvious he went with strangulation instead of hanging. He tied the noose to the bed then just went limp until he choked himself out. Which, if you're playing attention, would explain how the bones typically only broken by strangulation ended up being broken.

    The only question then is how he was able to override the normally overwhelming survival instinct, which in most people would force them to move once they started seriously asphyxiating. I've got no idea how he managed to overcome his lizard brain and it's survival demands.

    And that is pretty much the only reason to give even the slightest amount of credibility to the conspiracy theories. Not many people choose such an ugly and painful, not to mention difficult, suicide, and I just can't see how he managed it.
     
  16. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Tie the bedding short enough and you'll reach the end of it before you hit the floor. That's all it takes. He was 82kg at the time of his death, which is more than enough to exert the necessary force to break neck bones like the hyoid bone, especially considering he was 66 years old as well. He also has fractures to other bones in his neck, which is apparently a sign against strangulation and for suicide.

    Still, we don't have enough information to form a proper conclusion. We'd need to know if there were any other signs of struggle (because it's very difficult to strangle a person and not leave signs of it) before we could conclude one way or the other. The various experts a bunch of newspapers have asked about this have pretty much universally said there's not enough information to determine whether it was foul play or not.

    It's helpful to note that the Epstein family hired a pathologist to watch the post mortem taking place and they haven't disputed anything at this stage. That might change in the future, but for the moment I'm willing to put this down to suicide rather than murder.
     
  17. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Here's the problem: "short enough" is negative distance. He was the same height as the bed, the physics just don't check out for him hanging himself.

    And yeah, my thinking is that it's probably a 70/30, maybe 80/20 odds in favor of suicide, with it only being that low because of how awfully convenient every new thing we learn about the circumstances was. It was almost certainly Epstein just killing himself, with my best guess being that he tied up the sheet, rolled off the bed and let it strangle him to death.
     
  18. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I don't think you're picturing this the same way I am. If he throws himself from the top bunk then it doesn't matter how tall he is, especially if he doesn't drop feet first. The rope goes taut before he gets near the floor then his own body weight acts to break the hyoid bone and fracture his spine. We're not talking about his femur or anything here; the hyoid bone calcifies during middle age and becomes more brittle as it becomes more rigid, making it much easier to damage in a suicide attempt. The fact that he had other fractures in there also suggests that it wasn't strangulation, according to a bunch of different pathologists the media has interviewed.

    Alternately, he ties the bedding to the top of the bed and around his neck, crouches at the edge of it and then just falls forward. That way you can maximise the length of the bedding to get the most possible force on the neck. He'd then fall off the bed, possibly suffering a second jerk as the bedding slackens and then re-tightens on the way down. Not exactly the cleanest of suicides, but it's a plausible way to induce death.

    That's another possible method as well.
     
  19. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Order Member DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    So as an ENT chap who has spent over a year dealing with laryngeal fractures. And having also done a psych job dealing with people overriding their lizard brains and leaning forward and killing themselves by tying the one thin sheet they had to a door handle 3 foot off the ground...

    You’re both plausible. You can’t know who’s right. You’re both being very morbid. You can’t deduce this out. Probably you should just drop the speculation cus it’s becoming tedious IMO. Link news articles as they develop, instead, perhaps.
     
  20. Nevermind

    Nevermind Auror

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    Meanwhile, in IndyCar, one year after the infamous Robert Wickens accident, there was another multi-car incident at Pocono in which a car ended up in the catchfence. On lap 1. This time, Felix Rosenqvist landed in the fence, and was admitted to a trauma centre for further evaluation after suffering “non-life-threatening injuries.”

    I can’t wait until IndyCar finally gets out of that frickin’ hellhole.

    Oh, and said catch fence is being repared with zip wire. Because of course it is.
     
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