1. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice

News (that doesn't deserve its own thread)

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by Taure, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. Warlocke

    Warlocke Prisoner

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,900
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The armpit of Ohio
    I'm pretty sure in the old town square, you could shout, "Bob's Stupendous Hot Dogs gave me the shits!" and hardly anyone would give you so much as a sidelong glance.

    In "the new town square" your "shout" is recorded for dissection by the entire planet, and probably can't be erased unless you get to it before anyone sees it. And if one special snowflake got teed off because they happen to know that Bob is a Muslim, then they shout for everyone to look at your original shout and they call you a racist because... I guess religion=race now, and now you have an army of thousands of snowflakes researching everything they can about you so they can call your place of business and tell your boss you should be fired for being "literally Hitler," threaten your family, and basically make it so you can't get gainful employment ever again.

    I don't think these two "town squares" are comparable.

    I do think the difference isn't as much about the technology as people think, so much as the attitudes of the people involved.
     
  2. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    3,371
    Location:
    Australia.
    The tweet is still a solid message. It can just as easily be aimed at cyber bullying than at whatever the latest Nazi shitstorm was.
     
  3. momo

    momo DA Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    AMERICA
    High Score:
    0
    I am seriously hoping that you are joking or exaggerating. I don't see how it is possible for someone on this site of all places to say that the internet would be policed. Imagine if we gave the public the run of this site. Our "elitist attitude" would be cyberbulling. Every single time someone as been called out for saying flat out stupid would not be okay.

    I am of the belief that the internet should not be policed. Why? Because you are doing something that most of the time won't harm anyone. And if someone is offended? Then they need to grow up and stop caring about people they will probably never meet.
     
  4. The Iron Rose

    The Iron Rose Headmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,012
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Strong disagree. The internet absolutely needs to be policed, and I'm horrified that anyone could suggest otherwise.

    That being said, I'm also a firm believer in strong freedom of speech laws like we have in the United States. But there should be no difference in someone prosecuted for handing out hateful leaflets on a mall corner than someone shitposting online in terms of jurisdiction. The former has happened in Canada on multiple occasions, the latter should be happening as well. The internet is not some mythical libertarian wild west where you can escape from any consequence or punishment if you're smart enough to use a VPN, and if you think that way and commit crimes online you're due for an unpleasant surprise.

    I disagree with this ruling because I don't think content like that which folks have been describing is something that should be prosecuted. But if you're going to have a society with laws that prohibit hate speech, then speech online should and does fall under that category.
     
  5. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,101
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    It would be were it in a vacuum, but they're not unaware of the response and attention to the current case.
    --- Post automerged ---
    The thing is, 99% of content on the internet is just some flavor of speech. Barring credible threats and calls to violence, or admitting to some flavor of offline crime, the rest of the content should be broadly left alone if you believe in free speech. I'm constantly reminding people that freedom has a cost, and that cost is people doing things I/we find distasteful or disagree with.

    Edit: The argument seems to me to not be so much about application of law as it is whether that should be a law at all. Still, interpreting this as intentionally anti-semitic seems like thought-policing. It was clearly meant in jest, was published to a channel with very few subscribers, and he even explicitly says that nazis are deplorable in the beginning of the video. That's the entire premise, after all.
     
  6. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    718
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New England
    High Score:
    2810
    This discussion is based on the example of the dog or whatever, and so it's understandable to focus on speech, but the internet is rife with crime, and most of it has nothing to do with speech.

    Consider:
    • Drug smuggling/distribution/sales
    • Child pornography
    • Financial/securities fraud
    • White collar crime
    • Insider trading
    • Human trafficking facilitation
    • Terrorism/radicalization
    • Sanctions violation
    • Solicitation
    • Murder-for-hire
    • Antiquities fraud
    • Intellectual property theft
    • Espionage
    • Cyberbullying
    • Corporate crime
    • Tax evasion
    • Identity theft
    • Every other crime except jaywalking
    Speech is one thing, but anyone who says the internet shouldn't be policed is just plain wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  7. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    924
    High Score:
    6005
    I don't want to speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure we all mean speech shouldn't be policed on the internet (or anywhere), unless the obvious exceptions to the rule are taking place. Obviously the internet isn't some safety-net that should allow criminal activity to go unpunished.

    I don't think anyone advocating for the old AoL '3-strikes and you're out' defence against paedophilia and other crimes on the internet that was in place back in the 90s (maybe late 80s. I don't remember T_T).

    Crime should be policed on the internet, as it should be anywhere else.

    The tricky part comes with places like Canada or the UK which don't actually, as far as I know, have the free speech laws the US boasts. The Case of Her Dog I think actually counts as a hate crime according to UK legislature (which is a big fucking problem, if true). Would love if a citizen of the UK could confirm, but that's how I understand it.
     
  8. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,101
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I didn't see anybody even mention the argument that laws should not be enforced online except from the two of you, @Darth_Revan and @The Iron Rose. You're arguing against a point nobody made.

    Disregarding that several of your examples shouldn't be crimes, the remainder are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the content online.
     
  9. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    718
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New England
    High Score:
    2810
    Uh huh? Because you kinda made it:

    Yet, in the UK for example, online fraud and cyber crime are the largest share of criminal activity. It's quickly becoming similar in the US. Then there's the Dark Web, which is a haven for crime.

    My point was, a good deal of the internet has nothing to do with speech and is nothing but crime.

    But if we dispense with all that and just talk about speech: You have the extremist propaganda and radicalization literature. Extremist nationalist hate speech. Virulent racism like The Daily Stormer. Fake news and propagandistic lies from governments and private groups trying to pollute the public square. Harassment and cyberbullying and whatnot.

    All of that absolutely needs to be policed.
     
  10. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,783
    Location:
    Within the Garden of Nurgle.
    High Score:
    2,094
    If I use Experian I can get my first Dark Web search for free! Hopefully none of my children have been bought and sold already. Internet Badmen might take them away.

    Say I agree on policing of the net. Policed by who? Our government? So that we can live in an even more walled garden and only echo the same shit over and over?

    I feel like a lot of the buzz on fake news and shit is only so big because we were got with it. If the phrase makes sense. I'm not making light of people that are legitimately having their data made off with, but there is a lot of defense that a person can do to prevent that from happening. Just no one practices internet safety.

    Don't give your information to anyone.
    Don't blindly think that because they say they won't sell your information that they won't.
    Don't assume that anyone is free of having data breaches.
    Don't give your information to anyone.

    Fishing is so easy because people are way to easy to convince that you're on the up and up. Grandma will have her house sold from under her because she thought the Sweepstakes people were trying to get her social and mailing address to send her their winnings.

    What everyone lacks is education. There are more and more people online everyday. The net culture I grew up in is vastly different than the net culture we have now.

    And people are going to pay for it, atleast once, before they learn their lesson.

    Re: Hitler Dog, sucks that in the UK apparently training your dog to do the hitler salute is a hate crime. I mean, legal systems are a thing, but at the same time I think this is going to open a discussion to what is right and what is wrong. Its way to easy to be side tracked though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  11. Psychotic Cat

    Psychotic Cat Order Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    882
    To clarify for people who didn't follow the case, training the dog to salute wasn't what got him in trouble it was the "gas the jews" bit.
    If you haven't seen the video, just imagine bunch of shots of a guy asking his excitable little pug if it wants to "go for a walk" only instead of the words "go for a walk" he's trained it to respond that way to "do you wanna gas the jews" "Buddha(the dog), gas the jews?" "come on gas some jews son, gas the jews" which is literally ninety something percent of the video, not the couple of times he gets it to raise its paw when he says sieg heil.
     
  12. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    3,371
    Location:
    Australia.
    This just in, actions still have consequences, internet denizens upset. More at 11.
     
  13. Sey

    Sey Unspeakable DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    742
    High Score:
    0
    If you’re going to be so smug about it, why don’t you tell us about how you’d make it work?

    Who’s going to be doing the policing?

    How are we going to afford it?

    What happens when entire sites are shut down because one user did something stupid?

    Jesus Christ man. I can’t believe you think the solution to a problem is to give the government more power.

    Policing the intent opens a huge can of worms.
     
  14. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    3,371
    Location:
    Australia.
    Well, for one, I wouldn't invoke the Lord's name in vain.

    I'm not sure why people are so mad about this. Dude done goofed, and it happened to be on the internet. Scot coppers tweeted that being on the internet doesn't mean you can't get hit for your behaviour, regardless of how anonymous you think you are. If you don't like the penalties HitlerPugGuy is facing, write a letter to your MP.

    I mean, really. He made jokes about gassing Jews and he wasn't even funny about it. Guy should be thankful he wasn't in Germany.
     
  15. Imariel

    Imariel Order Member DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    884
    Location:
    Stockholm
    The distinction I would draw if it's a legitimate intent to provoke harmful (physically) behaviour. I personally agree that the joke was in bad taste, personally I didn't even find it or find him funny. He's a typical internet edgelord. However, I don't doubt that there was no intent to actually provoke physically harmful acts, he and others like him find humour in being edgy.

    In essence, it all comes down to what you personally would consider acceptable speech. My ideological preference is that anything that does not overtly advocate for actual violence should be allowed, you finding it offensive is subjective and in part irrelevant. Not going to argue the actual legal verdict since I don't know the relevant UK legislation, I just find it morally reprehensible from a basis of free speech.

    One interesting aspect is why I'd find free speech prohibits actual calls for violence if I hold free speech as sacrosanct. My argument would be that the use of violence inhibits free speech, which is why prohibiting the incitement of it actually leads to a larger amount of free speech. You being offended may make you mad, or sad, but does not inhibit you from responding or exercising your free speech in turn.

    Conflating this issue with other, actual crimes, is either ignorant or willfully deceptive.
     
  16. awinarock

    awinarock Heir

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,744
    Location:
    Texas
    Aren't those sorts of sites already policed to a degree? I would imagine that they'd be filled with moles and accounts monitoring users that are likely to commit violence.
     
  17. Nevermind

    Nevermind Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Black Forest
    High Score:
    0
    UPDATE: To absolutely no-one‘s surprise, the onboard shots with the Halo look simply awful. From the outside it‘s not actually that bad anymore, the T-Cam (the camera atop the airbox) shot is somewhat tolerable, but the chassis (behind the driver’s helmet and neckrest on either side) shots are terrible. Talk on the street is that the chassis shot will, for the time being, mostly be used to cover the rear of the car, while nosecams will see more use. To that, I say "yes, please," for the simple reason that they looked gorgeous in IndyCar two weeks ago.

    Worst of all, there‘s very little change in sight for this year, as the deadline for changing the position of the cameras in 2018 expired last June. Thanks again, Jean.
     
  18. KHAAAAAAAN!!

    KHAAAAAAAN!! Troll in the Dungeon Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Under your bed.
    High Score:
    2,002
    To be fair, it wouldn't be that difficult. There have been many legislative attempts to censor indecent conduct on the internet in the US and UK, and while they have all mostly been struck down for being unconstitutional or grossly infringing on UK free speech laws, the setups were relatively simple, mimicking most currently enforced censorship laws. The laws (see the US' CDA before augmentation) were vague and broad in scope, they criminalized certain acts, and then actual enforcement/reporting/monitoring is essentially crowd-sourced to companies and online service providers.

    I can't imagine you would have to setup any new institutions in the UK. In the US, the FBI handles most of the current US censorship violations. I imagine UK policing forces do the same yes? Hire some new people to fill out a new cyber task force to receive and process reports and you're done.

    You would place limits on liability of course, just like the US does with DMCA and COPA, and then rely on the threat of expensive government lawsuits and media blacklisting to keep companies toeing the enforcement line.

    TLDR: it would be simple as fuck to implement and enforce anti-obscenity laws. But could legislators craft a version of such a bill that doesn't infringe upon free-speech laws? No, probably not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  19. Pure Infinity

    Pure Infinity High Inquisitor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    583
    Gender:
    Male
    This seems like a great case study on how a country can slowly piss away their rights. The fact that they're doing so without any seeming understanding as to why those rights existed in the first place is extremely humorous to me. I also find it hilarious that they don't have the foresight to realize that the same legislation they're advocating for could easily be turned against them in the near to distant future.
     
  20. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,783
    Location:
    Within the Garden of Nurgle.
    High Score:
    2,094
    Not to spur some off topic political debate here, but what's your context? You have no location showing, so I am going to assume that maybe you're American.

    I've always operated under the assumption that not all countries are America.
     
Loading...