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Outsider Time Limit?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Scrib, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. Scrib

    Scrib The Chosen One

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    I was thinking about trying one last time to write a fic and just as I started to get into it I hit a little snag.Outsiders.

    They're meant to play a big role in the story but I couldn't remember whether we were ever told that they could only stay around for a certain period after summoning.

    I'm pretty sure that demons go back to the NeverNever at sunrise but I don't know if the same rules apply to Outsiders. Do they go back to the Outside, if so is that part of the NeverNever, or do they just stay around until the summoner chooses to send them back.

    We know that they are resistant to magic so does that mean that the limits that demons and other magical creatures have don't apply to them (e.g. running water?)

    I've tried to go back and find stuff but it's hard to seperate fanon from canon for me, especially considering the best description we ever got about them probably came from a fic I read recently, it all blends together.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Random Shinobi

    Random Shinobi Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Each sunrise erodes magic, but doesn't necessarily end it. When a wizard summons a (minor) demon, he has to provide the energy for the demon to remain on the mortal world, but I suppose that stronger beings can remain interminably on their own power. I would say that Outsiders can remain forever once summoned.
     
  3. Scrib

    Scrib The Chosen One

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    Well fuck, if that's so its time to do some backtracking.

    But maybe that's why it's such a big deal not to summon them y'know unlike demons they're permanent?
     
  4. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I'm not sure I'd call them permanent. That's not to say that they aren't, but as far as I can remember we don't have any canon evidence for that either.

    I know that He-Who-Walks-Behind was an Outsider, but our only real experience with him involved Harry and therefore isn't a good indicator.

    Was the Skinwalker a powerful demon or was it considered an Outsider? I think it was just a demon but I'm not 100% sure, been too long since I read it.

    Honestly I don't think we know enough about Outsiders yet. You could probably shape it to your story however you wanted if you wrote it well, but I think that having them disappear at Sunrise would be incorrect.
     
  5. Random Shinobi

    Random Shinobi Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    It was a corrupted demigod of some sort, not an Outsider. I'm not sure if it was ever called a demon, though.
     
  6. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Hm, I had the impression that a lot of the 'old gods' (and demi-gods?) were Outsiders. That might be why it's unclear in my mind what the Skinwalker was.

    Though... now that I think about it, I don't think it was actually called or summoned. It was actually existing in some form in the human world when it sensed an injured wizard on the move and set off in pursuit.

    ...Hm, but wasn't it also being used by someone to deliberately catch Morgan? Gah. I need to re-read the damn book. I'm starting on that tonight damnit!

    In fact, it's probably time for a full re-read. The next book is out in just over a month after all.
     
  7. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Dresden does not kill HWWB, but merely banishes him back. In Blood Rites, HWWB was summoned back into the physical world and it claims to recognize Dresden and threatens that they have unfinished business before disappearing.

    It seems rather odd, that it would make such threats for the future, if it knew that it would be banished back to outside at sunrise. It is also very unlikely that Butcher would write such a scene, and then never mention HWWB again. It also does not fit that the White Council would consider outsiders such a threat that they have actually made summoning them part of the 7 laws, if they simply vanished with sunrise.

    No, I think outsiders are indeed permanent, and HWWB is still out there, gathering power and preparing for a rematch with Dresden.


    Bob:

    Essentially, the skinwalker is closer to things like angels and valkyries than outsiders. Though not as powerfull apparently. It is not a god or demi-god, those are much more powerfull. Mab is called a demi-god for instance and Butcher has said that even with her true name, it would still take the entire White Council to defeat her. LTW alone managed to beat the Skinwalker. Cowl would have become what is called "a junior league god" with the Darkhallow, and is said to be able to penetrate the humongous wards(that have been built over thousands of years) at Edinburgh and kill the entire SC.

    Skinwalker is very small potatoes in comparison. And, it has no connection to outsiders.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  8. Agayek

    Agayek Master of Death DLP Supporter

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    If memory serves, Skinwalkers are demigods that remained behind when the rest of their kind left to an unspecified part of the Never-never. That means technically they're not demons, and since they were never banished beyond the Outer Gates, they are not Outsiders. I'm not sure there's really a word for what they are in the Dresden-verse.


    And I don't think the Skinwalker was being manipulated per se. It caught Morgan's "scent" in New Mexico (I think, somewhere in the American Southwest) when he fled the White Council and followed him to Chicago to devour him and his magic. The Black Council's involvement extended as far as exploiting the opportunity it represented.
     
  9. Koalas

    Koalas First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That's the explanation Morgan gave as he was completely opposed to the existence of the BC. We have no way of knowing if this was an accurate assessment.
     
  10. Samuel Black

    Samuel Black Chief Warlock

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    If my memory serves me right, what you're thinking of are the servants of the Old Gods. I think it's mentioned somewhere that the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Gods were Outsiders.
     
  11. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

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    Guys, try to keep Shezza-fanon and Butcher-canon seperate. :p
     
  12. Shezza

    Shezza Renegade 4 Life DLP Supporter

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    Shezza-fanon is invasive and patient. It is only a matter of time before it becomes Shezza-canon!
     
  13. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Well, yeah. I never meant to imply that HWWB was dead or completely gone. He's clearly still out there and will likely make a re-appearance. I just meant that he might not be in the mortal world at the moment so his summoning wasn't permanent. But he'll definately be back.

    Thanks to everyone for the info on Skinwalkers and the Old gods I was thinking of.

    As for whether the Skinwalker we saw was being manipulated or not, well, it originally probably did just pick up Morgan's scent and follow him like everyone said. But after that it seemed... very focused on getting Morgan specifically and even went so far as to use Thomas and make a deal with Harry, etc. That's why I thought that someone was influencing it or had hired it in some form. Just speculation though.

    Edit: Um, also grats to Jon and Shezza for being engaged apparently! I'm not clear on which Shezza-fanon we might have mixed up with canon, but I did at least catch Shezza's sig.
     
  14. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Maybe, but there is a potential problem with this.

    Consider, we know that when an outsider is destroyed in the mortal world, it is only banished back to outside. We know this because Dresden used his "outsiderbane"-magic to do just that before the series began (kill HWWB), and yet it is still around, waiting to enter the world.

    We know that HWWB is pretty damn pissed at Dresden for what happened. It wants revenge. It even tells Dresden that they have unfinished business between them.

    So why is it that it did not attack Dresden right then and there? It was summoned to the world. It had just killed the summoner (Madge I think) and was free of the containment circle. It could have attacked Dresden, but instead chose to flee the area. Why?

    I mean if sunrise were to banish it back to the outside, there would be nothing for it to lose. There would be 3 potential actions and results available:
    1. Attack Dresden and get its ass kicked, banished back to outside.
    2. Attack Dresden and win getting revenge, then get banished back outside next morning.
    3. Leave without attacking, and get banished back outside next morning.

    Lash describes HWWB as a high ranking outsider with great status, implying great intelligence. If it was going to be sent back to outside anyway, why not take the chance and try for revenge on Dresden. Nothing to lose.

    If on the other hand the presence of outsider is a permanent one (unless banished), it makes a lot of sense why HWWB left. It knows that it can hang around as long as it wants, so long as no one kills it. As such, it avoids a battle it knows it can lose (with Dresden), in order to acquire more power and perhaps allies so that it has a better chance of victory, once it finally strikes at Dresden.

    Bottom line, it would make very little sense for sunrise to do anything to outsiders. I think they are indeed very permanent.

    I don't think we did. In Shezza's story, the fallen angels (former servants of God) are trapped outside, whereas in Dresden-canon they have nothing to do with outside and are trapped inside those coins. I think Jon might have thought we were talking about those thanks to all this talk about gods.

    What we did talk about, (Skinwalker, outsiders, old gods) are all Dresden canon. Except that skinwalker is NOT a demi-god, :)

     
  15. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I think we're just defining "permanent" differently Datakim. I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you as far as I can tell.

    In my mind, it's not permanent b/c Dresden defeated him and he went away. But it was done in such a manner than he can come back later.

    You seem to be defining permanent as how long he'd stay if he was summoned and left completely alone.

    I'm not trying to debate whether or not he'd still be there if Dresden hadn't defeated him because I have no opinion on that subject. You make some good points for your view.