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Political Posters & Propaganda

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Xiph0, Sep 1, 2008.

  1. Longsword

    Longsword Sixth Year

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    As there is no single entity called a society, it is hard to say for certain what its purpose is.
     
  2. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    In which case you have zero grounds to be making any suggestions regarding national policy, one way or other, if you can't even define the purpose and goals of said suggestions.
     
  3. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Yes, I was referring to Finland, which scrapped its UBI experiment after two years after finding it doesn't incentivize work and encourages sloth, to literally no one's surprise.
     
  4. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti Groundskeeper

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    The Finnish experiment was "scrapped" after two years because it was designed to be "scrapped" after two years, not to be a permanent solution. You know, like an experiment. The results were inconclusive; employment didn't rise but neither did sloth. Biggest change was that the people who were part of the experiment had major improvement to their quality of life, even though they didn't have more money than those in the control group (Finnish social security is generous anyway, it just has plenty of bureacracy and incentive traps).

    On the other hand, there were multiple huge problems with the experiment in the first place: for one only long term unemployed people were chosen to participate so there's likely other reasons to their unemployment than just incentives, and also the experiment used a model that would be way too expensive because it didn't include the needed changes to taxation that really make the system sustainable.
     
  5. Arthellion

    Arthellion The Chosen One

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    The thing with Yang’s 1000 is that 1000 isn’t really enough to live on. It’s enough for an apartment and basic groceries, but beyond that not much.

    That said, things change when you have a family of 2-3 adults. That’s 3k extra a month. Huge difference.
     
  6. Stenstyren

    Stenstyren Professor

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    EDIT: Moved to a better thread.
     
  7. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    In most of the major cities these days, $1,000 is enough for maybe half an apartment, and that's it.
     
  8. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Final results aren't out yet. Only for first yearm first year didn't find huge quality of life improvements, only that people were happier. That's it, they reported being happier, not materially or mentally better. In the other hand, no employment change.
     
  9. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    We should also be wary of extrapolating the effects of national welfare programs from a country of 5.5 million people with jus sanguinis and where 98% of the population is either Finnish or hailing from neighboring countries...

    ... and our own which is sixty times larger, and even within the same ethnicities and states, familial bonds are minimal if even extant. Before we even consider the cultural tolerance of such policy.

    In short, I doubt an American program could so much as reach the lofty heights of "more happy".

    Urbanites will claim it is nowhere near enough and is a plot to eliminate other programs and replace with false promises.

    Ruralites will resent any proposed changes as squeezing them for the sake of the cities. Both they and the left will scream over any proposed VAT.

    Everyone will be angry when programs that affect other people are inevitably not phased out.

    That said, nobody will want to get rid of it once it's in place. Like social sec or medicare, it will be attacked, recognized as unsustainable... but more because ~other people~ did or didn't do something than an actual stomach for abolishment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  10. someone010101

    someone010101 Groundskeeper

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    UBI is a flat per head income, correct? Seems like it'd be more meaningful in poor areas instead of cities. I.e. I can't move to xy because rent is 2x UBI.

    An effective move vs urbanization?
     
  11. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    Only if it removes existing programs. Given how people react right now with gentrification or moving public housing, I would suspect they would react badly to perceived government policy aimed at moving them out of high value real estate/ high cost of living areas.

    Ie, the urban poor will resent being shoved out, the suburban poor will resent once again having to sell devalued homes and move away again (though the suburban wealthy will enjoy being the new gentrifiers), and the rural will resent them both.

    It is absurd to have the majority of poor people living in the middle of cities, but it's nonetheless very complicated, affecting everything from public transit to outlying community integrity to the not unreasonable point that a city requires masses of low-skill workers to run and yet those same people being told to bugger off elsewhere is obnoxious.
     
  12. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Isn't the major reason they are living in the middle of the cities despite being overpriced and with bad infrastructure its because its where the jobs are and they dont have to spend a lot of money and time commuting?
     
  13. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    I don't know. The American model has developed very differently from elsewhere; not just elsewhere as in places with better public transit (europe, japan) but elsewhere compared to latin america, south asia, etc.

    It also seems to hold more or less true across American cities, regardless of if we are talking about the sprawl of Texas or the more compact NE Corridor.

    Poor live at location X because Y doesn't seem like a simple equation.
     
  14. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer Moderator DLP Supporter

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    If you guys like UBI so much, why don't you marry it?

    Or, you know, make thread for it and get back to properly posting posters and propaganda?
     
  15. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    article-0-00CC2BCD00000578-453_468x700.jpg jw4tam4gae921.jpg
     
  16. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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  17. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    [​IMG]

    Not necessarily diagareeing with your point but I think your math might be slightly off.

    250mil eligible participants x $1000 per person = $250Bil

    Still not an insignificant price tag but not impossible to manage through some clever redistrubition of welfare funds and smart taxation.

    Edit: My mistake. I forgot to factor in the 12 months
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  18. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    It's not $1000 a year, mate.

    250Mn * 1K = 250Bn * 13 (if one payment is every 4 weeks for a year) = 3.25Tn per fiscal year.
     
  19. TieHat

    TieHat Groundskeeper

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    Payments are on the first of each month, so it would only be 12. So that's 3Tn flat. And the math is explained on his site.
     
  20. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Pfft, as if I'm going to waste my time reading his site. Oh sweet summer child.
     
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