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The (non)sense of the 7 Potters scheme

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sesc, May 13, 2019.

  1. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    This was split from a "Questions that don't deserve their own thread"-question, because it does deserve its own thread.

    Arguing that way leads nowhere. If you apply that metric, the entire 7 Potters scheme collapses. It makes no sense on at least four levels:

    1. The premise.

    Pius Thicknesse has gone over, which gives us a big problem. He’s made it an imprisonable offence to connect this house to the Floo Network, place a Portkey here or Apparate in or out. All done in the name of your protection, to prevent You-Know-Who getting in at you. Absolutely pointless, seeing as your mother’s charm does that already. What he’s really done is to stop you getting out of here safely.
    (Moody in DH)

    Who is Thicknesse, again? At this point in time, the Minister is Rufus Scrimgeour. One visit in his office, and the "laws" are gone -- or, at least the effects are. Scrimgeour is a politician, but also an Auror, and he knows what is coming. He held out until he was killed -- he never was under the Imperius Curse, or helped Voldemort in other ways. But assuming, for the sake of the argument, this was not possible ...

    2. The conclusions.

    My life is in danger. There are terrorists that want to kill me. I want to escape. Therefore, it is vitally important that I ... follow bureaucratic red tape to the letter, created by the very people I'm trying to escape from?

    Wtf. Priorities, folks?? What are they gonna do if Harry Apparates out? Expell him from Hogwarts? Call him Undesirable No. 1? Force him to go on an extended camping trip? I seem to recall those from somewhere :rolleyes:

    And I want to note underage magic suddenly ceases to matter the moment the Death Eaters attack. But assuming, for the sake of argument, this was relevant ...

    3. The timings.

    If the problem is underage magic, you can't tell me it's impossible to wait until midnight of July 30th, and apparate out one second after. Death Eaters don't have super powers. They can't get in before Harry turns 17, and it takes at least a few seconds to reach him then. That is enough time to get out of there safely.

    4. And finally, the Trace is dumb anyway, but that's a different thread.


    So regardless how you spin it, there is no way the 7 Potters thing makes sense under the given circumstances. It's the worst, most contrived scene in the entire series, and yes, that includes the GoF scheme and playing chess to find a Philosopher's Stone. On the other hand, I'll always hold that if a scene feels contrived, it has nothing to do with the scene itself, but with a failure on the author's part to give it the proper in-story framing so that it does make sense. So in that spirit, five minutes back-of-an-envelope sketch:
    • Floo is out. Regardless of whether it could be arranged or not, the author notes that Floos can easily be monitored, and this is a high security risk. Therefore, plan A is
    • A Portkey. Moody & co turn up, everyone grabs an old boot ... and nothing happens. Sabotage! There is a spy in the Order, apparently, and the Portkey was exchanged.
    • The author notes that the Portkey Charm is complicated, and beyond the skill of anyone present. Flitwick did it, but he's in Hogwarts. Therefore,
    • Plan B: Apparate out. While everyone is considering what do, and whether to possibly get a new Portkey, suddenly it becomes clear they cannot Apparate. Indeed they have been betrayed! Voldemort knew when Harry was going to get moved, and arranged for Anti-Apparition jinxes to cover the street. They are trapped. At this moment, Moody growls "nothing for it, then", and pulls out
    • Plan C: Get on brooms and make a break for it. And in order to confuse the Death Eaters, everyone will disguise as Potter, and fly ...
    etc. pp.
    This ain't brilliant, but it makes a ton of more sense than the Canon framing. It's a (bad) fall-back option created on the spot, the best that can be achieved right there and then with limited resources, and that's why it works -- as opposed to being the best option, given a lot of time and resources.

    I dunno what Rowling was up to when she got to that point. The Trace shows how desperate she was, but it's entirely unneccessary, because there are way more easy explanations. And it's not that she's always this bad, she's done a lot of good justifactions for stuff throughout the books. This one, though, is just bad, and that's why (to get back to the quote) "But they could have gotten Harry's stuff ..." doesn't even register :p


    Or, at least that's my take. Alternate explanations welcome.
     
  2. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I like your version better.
     
  3. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I think the point she was making when she said that it's now illegal to connect the floo up to Privet Drive was that the Order had previously relied on someone in the Floo department to do the connecting, which they now wouldn't do because they don't want to go to Azkaban. That's pure conjecture though and your idea is much better than the canon one.
     
  4. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Chief Warlock DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    As a devil's advocate re: imprisonable offences.

    Firstly, this is prior to the fall of the ministry when, as you said, Scrimgeour was doing what he could to stop the bad 'uns while dealing with a leaky sieve ministry and a compromised DMLE. It's reasonable that various order people as such were reliant on some veneer of respectability for means of resisting Voldemort within the ministry which they might lose by committing a flagrant offence. Harry's plan and the Hogwarts environment to come weren't widely anticipated by the order at large at this point, I believe.

    Secondly, I always took it to mean that as a place of high interest, again with a compromised DMLE, that Harry's rough whereabouts were under heavy surveillance and blockade. In the same way that there are plenty of private roads that the public 'can't' walk down but might anyway without consequences or real challenges, trying to do so at Downing Street is going to prove a much greater problem. I don't think it required significant mental gymnastics from being told it was an offence to magically travel from Privet Drive to the idea that they were monitoring attempts to travel to and from Privet Drive and enforcing this.

    That said, I prefer your fix anyway because it's got that back and forth of A problem, A solution but causes B problem, B solution but causes C problem etc. Which would have only helped build the tone of Deathly Hallows and the fraught, tense guerrilla war.
     
  5. Agent

    Agent High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    Kind of disappointed you didn't make 7 points.

    The Portkey issue can be explained by the fact that the only person we've seen make a Portkey is Dumbledore and that there is simply no one else who is capable of making them. Either they lack the knowledge, the skill or the "power". Any other portkey making method may require Ministry aid for some reason.

    Apparition could have been explained by saying that due to the nature of the protection on Harry, no one could apparate in OR out of Little Whinging. I don't think anyone's ever done it anyway in the books?

    Of course, there is the simple matter that they could have just used a taxi to get to The Burrow.
     
  6. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Very fair point. I still maintain that it could have been done if coordinated with Scrimgeour personally, but that aside, they didn't have a Seer at hand to know that e.g. Kingsley would be on the run in one week anyway, so that breaking the laws wouldn't matter. On the other hand, if it was a high enough priority to get Harry out, then they might have sacrificed one person. And yeah, they should have talked with Harry, to understand that he would fuck off alone either way.

    This I consider irrelevant. Whether it's a Death Eater-controlled Ministry stooge watching and enforcing, or a Death Eater watching and enforcing ... tomato, tomahto. Same person, different robe. They specifically did the 7 Potters because they knew they'd encounter resistance, it was always the plan to get Harry out against forces that tried to keep him there.


    @Agent One : As for the Portkey, sure, do note though that they use Portkeys back from the safe houses to the Burrow, so clearly someone is able to create them. And as far as Apparition goes, in HBP Dumbledore and Harry walk down Privet Drive before they Apparate. It's never stated if they can't do this closer to #4, but if it is tied to the protections that expire on July 31st, see #3.

    Also, Iunno if a taxi is better than a broom ... but potentially, they might have created some permanent shielding around the brooms, it's a bit like riding naked through a hornet's nest.


    Incidentally, I skipped "Kreacher/Dobby Apparates Harry out", because this is a plot hole that is due to overpowering House-Elves.
     
  7. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    1. Harry leaves with the Dursleys earlier in the day

    2. Have Lupin magically dig a tunnel to Figg's place on Magnolia Crescent- ohey, there's a thought- use an existing Floo connection

    3. So Pius Thicknesse has prohibited anyone from disapparating/portkeying from there? Maybe they should just... Break The Law. It's not like Harry wouldn't ruin his barely-clean record the moment he had to cast... any spell whatsoever

    4. Harry leaves on his own under his Invisibility Cloak

    5. Tonks visits as local muggle Piers Polkiss, then swaps for Harry using Polyjuice to leave as him. Tonks later leaves as Petunia.

    ...and as an aside- they Polyjuice six other people to look like Harry but the girl who can look like Harry ALL FUCKING DAY IF SHE WANTS TO isn't even disguised as anyone. Guess your cover as a loyal Auror is pretty much blown forever, Nymphie

    6. Hedwig leaves days earlier to stay at the Burrow- I mean, what the fuck was with the stuffed owls in cages- all they had to do to identify Harry is watch to see which cage was being treated as if it actually had a bird in it

    7. Put Harry on his Firebolt- you know the one- the FASTEST BROOM IN THE WORLD
    ... aside number 2: Fleur, who was chosen by a magical artifact to be the Triwizard champion of Beauxbatons, a school three times the size of Hogwarts, is scared to fly a broom? What's the real story there, Bill? You subjugated her, I bet. She's your bimbette on a strict diet of lobotomy potions

    8. If you're not going to have Harry fly his broom, at least have him keep it shrunk and handy in case something predictable happened with Hagrid driving the bulky and loud flying motorcycle with the so-very-detachable sidecar

    9. You know, I bet those Vanishing Cabinets still work just fine. Bring the one at Hogwarts to the Dursley's. Borgin will never know what hit him

    10. Swear to God, if they'd called out for Fawkes to help him escape, the phoenix might have come

    11. {Confundus] "Uncle Vernon, you're going to teach Harry how to drive today. You've always wanted to abandon him in a park somewhere- here's your chance."

    12. With two months to waste, training to be an animagus might be a productive use of Harry's time (ignoring Pottermore process here]

    13. Challenge the twins to come up with a plan- better yet, ask Ginny. She probably has a boatload of 'kidnap Harry' scenarios in her head

    14. Party at the Dursleys! Oh no- Harry's been arrested by the muggles!

    15. Take any other scenario (except #5, obviously), then put Tonks in Harry's place- it was a decoy move, and Harry skipped away by hopping a bus to Leatherhead before meeting Lupin to Apparate him to the Burrow

    16. Lastly... how about not letting Harry return to the Dursleys in the first place?! Why go back and thereby get trapped in a cul-de-sac? Anyone with access to Wizengamot records knows where Harry lives and a few weeks' protection won't mean shit if he gets nothing out of it but nasty looks from his relatives.

    EDIT:
    If I was editor for JKR at the time, I would have suggested she set up a reason why returning to Privet drive was necessary. Have Moody, Tonks and Lupin show up at his door a week early of a sudden and have them shuffle Harry and the Dursleys out, creating a running battle where Harry is pursued on a broom. Vernon protests too long and gets murdered despite Petunia urging him to go along, then the surviving two Dursleys get disapparated to a safe place.

    All sorts of hijinks could ensue as Harry tries to find a quiet place to get a breath and escape to safety, knowing that any spell or attempt at apparation would be detected.

    Hedwig would have died saving him from a killing curse as in the movie- because that's the right way to do it. Hedwig's death was the symbol of Harry's departure from childhood, but she deserved a better death than being treated like an action figure accessory.
     
  8. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    @wordhammer : I've been trying not to break the world the way HP:MoR does. "Digging a tunnel" probably goes into that category. Other options are good, though, I particularly like the polyjuice-as-a-visitor/Dursley idea ("Dudley" visits a friend, while the real Dudley is tied up in the Cupboard XD).

    On the other hand, though, it's clear that Rowling wanted two things: 1) An action-y escape, and 2) a bit of calm afterwards at the Burrow. Those are fair demands; but they do require that Harry return to Privet Drive, and all "easy" options be blocked, despite the Ministry not yet being Voldemort's. So those are the constraints.

    Even so, though, it's plenty plausible that any of the easier options (polyjuice) might go awry, a Death Eater gets suspicious, and the chase is on. So the bottom line remains that from an out-of-story perspective the square-peg-round-hole contortions in-story to get the present version to work are very much superfluous.
     
  9. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    With as much BS as the HP movie writers put on screen (including draining everything good out of Ron and handing it to Sue-per Hermione), even they knew it was utterly moronic leaving Hedwig in her cage for the escape.

    Say what you will about the movies but they had Hedwig go out fighting, saving Harry in the process, while JKR had her go out like a chump, trapped in a cage. I won't argue for Hedwig to escape death entirely, since JKR probably had a quota of good guy deaths to meet and needed one for the beginning of the book.

    Three knuts says it was between Hedwig and Gabrielle. o_O

    Still... it's easy to see where it could have been better. Obviously some people know how to give proper Hed', and some don't.

    That 7 Potters fiasco was... rather dumb. One wonders how much of it was to manufacture an action scene, and how much of it was so Jo 'inappropriate charms on a goat' Rowling could leave readers asking themselves, "Wait, does that mean everyone got to see Harry's wedding tackle?"

    Now if you'll excuse me, I must go, for nearly all the bubbles have gone.
     
  10. Silirt

    Silirt Chief Warlock DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I mean the most charitable possible explanation is that the reason they cared about imprisonable offenses is because most of the people who were going to help Harry escape didn't want to be on the run for the next few months, they wanted to be out in the open where they could do their jobs or something. At the time I would imagine they did not realize anyone would be on the run, that was sort of sprung on them, though the seeds were planted already. That doesn't preclude like eighty percent of these plans from being better than the seven potters plan, what occurred to me was throwing on the cloak about two weeks before his birthday, walking to Arabella Figg's house, and taking a portkey from there. It would have been legal and it's highly doubtful the Death Eaters would have seen them, even if they were watching the house.
    The problem with any plan involving traveling great distances, not instantaneously, as well as any plan where Harry is on his own, is that Voldemort can zero in on him from anywhere because they're soul sisters. The problem with any plan involving cars or planes is that's OBviouSLY a MUggLE WAnk. All jokes aside, I'm pretty sure that the reason they kept moving around in the camping adventure is because of the mental connection Harry and Voldemort share; no one hiding place is better than the other, they just couldn't let anyone catch up to them.
     
  11. Donimo

    Donimo Auror

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    As much as I disliked from DH, the Seven Potters wasn't one of them. I don't think its difficult to come up with explanations for why other modes of transport weren't available without stretching suspension of disbelief.

    As for Hedwig, obviously they should've let her out, but it's easy to say that in hindsight. In the moment you don't think about, I get that. Hedwigs tragic unnecessary death is better than a purposeful one. Dobby dies protecting Harry, don't need to double up on that in the book.
     
  12. TRH

    TRH Groundskeeper

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    I guess one thing relating to the escape that bothered me was that the Order knew immediately about Thicknesse's bewitchment, but seemingly did nothing about it even though the Minister was finally taking Death Eaters seriously. For them to not have warned Scrimgeour, or for that warning to have been ineffective, suggests either that the Minister was so thick-headed as to not believe their warnings even after Thicknesse went and imposed restrictions that stranded Harry in his home, or else Scrimgeour was powerless to do anything about it at that point, which makes the Ministry as a whole seem even more incompetent and non-functional. Fanon treats the Wizengamot as the Wizarding World's legislature and judiciary, but I never saw any indications of that in canon. The Minister seems like he can do whatever he wants except when he can't.
     
  13. zugrian

    zugrian Fourth Year

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    I just take it as one of the many things I hate about DH. Needing a big dumb action scene to start things off is fine except when there is absolutely no consistency like what we got.

    We know you can apparate right down the street as both Dumbledore and Mundungus do this in books 5 & 6. If the protection of the Dursleys is true, then the Death Eaters shouldn't be able to place any sort of anti-apparition jinx to keep him trapped there. If the protection wouldn't work like that, then Dumbledore is a moron to demand that Harry go back there.

    I've always thought it was stupid that Harry and company didn't all immediately go to work trying to stop Voldemort from taking over. Nope, let's send the kids back on the train, force Harry to just twiddle his thumbs at the Dursleys for more than a month, and have a wedding where pretty much all of the good guys will be-- it's not like that won't be an obvious target for the Death Eaters, right?
     
  14. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Within the bounds of strict canon, I agree with Sesc that the scheme doesn't make sense. However, I think it doesn't take too much to fix it - you just have to say that in addition to the Ministry making in unlawful for various transport modes to be used around Privet Drive, they also actually took steps to enforce those laws e.g. the erection of an Anti-Apparition Jinx over the area.
     
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