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The Trumperium 2: Caesar by the Pussy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jon, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    MRAs and many and different. A big problem they have today is that different factions of feminists shout them down, often for bringing up legitimate issues. If MRAs say "men overhwelmingly lose custody battles and are assumed the guilty party in domestic disputes" then some feminists tell them that they're trying to divert attention from women's issues or something to that effect (which, admittedly, is not an entirely baseless statement, because govt can only contribute money to so many programs, so zero-sum game is a factor--see cancer research funding). So MRAs go and create their own group to talk about these things and bring them to public attention. But then another subset of feminists claim that by doing this, MRAs somehow try to take away issues from feminism (like domestic violence).

    I see that you agree with the second type of feminist. Why are they doing this, feminism already talks about these things. But often it doesn't talk about them in the context of how it affects men.

    Patriarchy. This is such a meaningless buzzword. But I'll ask in good faith. What is patriarchy? Is it the momentum of a society 100 years ago, when women couldn't vote? No one disagrees that society isn't perfect, but words have power, and the name "patriarchy" carries the implication that men are responsible for all the ills of society, even if feminists sometimes make the token remark that it hurts men too.

    And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that there are two types of people: feminists, and then opposing them are all the bad ones. I don't have to be a feminist to want society to better itself, and not calling myself a feminist doesn't make a woman-hating bigot. And further, the notion that MRAs are redundant because feminism will take care of it all.

    Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean it's not a problem for other people, or at all. MRAs present plenty of cases where circumcision resulted in permanent damage. But more than that, it's just an issue of bodily autonomy, and I find opposition to MRAs in this case particularly confusing from people who support having the choice of abortion or decry FGM.

    I want to agree with you in principle: parents make choices for their children. But society has also decided that in some cases, we draw a line. Where do we draw the line in the case of circumcision (which is completely elective surgery)? Health benefits of circumcision, as I understand it, have been debunked with the simple advice of washing your junk.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  2. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    Actually, I think that MRA could, in theory, be an important ally for feminists. They share a lot of similar issues, so they could work together to change things for the better. Do more to protect both genders from domestic violence, make sure in custody cases to look at each parent as individuals (and not what society assumes about each gender's ability or inability to parent), and so on. Hell, considering how a key component of third-wave feminism is looking at the intersectionality of different types of people, there can be room for MRA out there.

    I'm no expert, but I'd define the patriarchy as the overall system in government/society where [certain types of] men get certain benefits and advantages but deprives most women [and some men] of those same benefits and advantages.

    When women are not allowed to vote, that's the patriarchy.

    When women politicians have to constantly prove they're "likable" while Trump of all people gets elected President, that's the patriarchy.

    When a man can sexually harass, abuse, or even rape people with relative impunity, and their victims have little to no support network and even if they report it will likely to be disbelieved by everyone, that's the patriarchy.

    When a man is mocked for doing anything the least bit feminine, from drinking a fruity cocktail to being sexually harassed, that's the patriarchy.

    Fair enough. But here's my question then: what exactly do you define as feminism?

    1. Literally anything can cause permanent damage. And if it really is that likely, then just make sure only trained experts do it.

    2. While there are some studies that show some minor problems, there are also some studies that show some minor benefits. All in all, it has little to no significant effect on the average person.

    3. If it really bothers someone they don't have foreskin, there've been operations to reverse circumcisions since Ancient Greek times.

    4. Male circumcision and FGM are not the same at all. The male equivalent of FGM would be to remove the head of the penis.

    Like I said before, a lot of non-Jewish and non-Muslim Americans are circumcised for an incredibly stupid and horrifying reason. But acting like it's some great and terrible issue plaguing the country's children just seems ridiculous.
     
  3. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    @Rhaegar I Feminists are an interest group. Just like the MRAs. I judge a particular issue on individual merit. Encouraging women to come forward against abusers and seeking justice is good. Shouting down men when they try to do the same for themselves is not.
     
  4. Imariel

    Imariel Death Eater DLP Supporter

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    On the topic of foreskins - there being no general damage by the process if done correctly doesn't mean it wouldn't be better for the person to choose to remove it themselves.

    This is the problem with the concept to be honest. You're taking some outcomes you deem undesireable and inferring a theoretical concept, a system of norms that inherently has these outcomes. You've picked these, probably out of more that you could've chosen, and said they're the outcome in society because there's an overarching system that causes it. I disagree. There's one or more norms working in combination for every outcome rather than a complete societal system that inherently has these outcomes. The difference may seem semantic but is actually essential.

    One presupposes the solution is to completely remake the system, means unknown. The other pressuposes one has to identify what causes the difference in outcome in the particular case, consider what the ramifications of changing the cause could be and decide if changing is worth it, even if it could have unintended consequences aswell.

    Essentially, I find the theoretical concept of patriarchy too radical and lacking an answer for an alternative societal construction. It's not enough to chant it doesn't work, you need the solution as well.
     
  5. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid Third Year

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    Not everyday you see political posts that begin with "On the topic of foreskins - "
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  6. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    DLP provides a very specific and eclectic service for its discerning clientele.

    WaPo did some polling on the situation in Virginia, specifically for Gov. Northam, with some mildly interesting results. 47 percent each say he should resign or stay. Interestingly, 58 percent of surveyed Black voters say he should stay. If you look a bit deeper, though, it seems to track back to party affiliation, so the conclusions I'd draw is...that blackface pictures officially don't matter, politically. Cf. AG Herring, who no one is talking about.

    At this rate, I'd cautiously say that he's going to survive this, due mostly, I think, to the spectacularly timed implosion of his Lt. Governor. Coincidence?
     
  7. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    What could possibly be coincidental about the fact that the Governor, Lt. Governor, and the AG all had scandals show up at the same time? In a state that Democrats have a relatively weak hold on? All during said state's election year?

    Fairfax should certainly be investigated (if not resign) at this point, and Northam and Herring were stupid for doing blackface when they were in college. But the timing is certainly quite curious, to say the least. The only question who was planning what.
     
  8. Zerg_Lurker

    Zerg_Lurker Order Member DLP Supporter

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    [Ancient Aliens guy] Russians. [/Ancient Aliens guy]
     
  9. Arthellion

    Arthellion Chief Warlock

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    Well it definitely starts with an R.
     
  10. Invictus

    Invictus Half-Blood Prince

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  11. Agayek

    Agayek Prisoner

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    It's gonna be straight up party lines divisions, like always these days.
     
  12. Howdy

    Howdy Dark Lord

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    Not to seem too rude but literally what the hell are you talking about?

    This guy is not looking to be confirmed, he's asking for a thorough FBI investigation to be conducted (which it was not in the case of Kavanaugh). There will be no vote to see him stay in office, so I just don't know what you mean by "party lines." If he were a Republican they'd be circling the wagons, but since he's a Dem they have all stated that they want him out. Let's do the damn investigation.
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Half-Blood Prince

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    Without warrants and formal accusations - necessary for actual judges, this won't be an actual criminal investigation. And everyone knows it. This is goingto be another political play. If it makes him innocent, then what? No one believed Kavanaugh. Why believe this one? Why?
     
  14. Agayek

    Agayek Prisoner

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    What I mean is, regardless of how this all plays out, barring the incredibly unlikely circumstances that a proper criminal investigation takes place and leads to both a trial and a conviction, the Republicans will say he should go, and the Democrats will say he should stay.

    I mean, shit, just look at the numbers for that poll about Northam linked earlier in this thread for exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  15. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    The federal justice system has no jurisdiction here, so this sounds like a stunt.
     
  16. Invictus

    Invictus Half-Blood Prince

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    It really does. But thanks to the Kavanaugh circus, everyone is applauding him, because they believe that's how you "fix" such things. Just throw the FBI at the problem, somewhat.
     
  17. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity High Score: 3,994 Prestige DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    Expect the "the Clintons engaged in criminal conspiracy" dog (a.k.a. "No, you're the puppet") to be turned loosein earnest in the right-wing blogosphere and media. Here's an opening salvo. This is the response to the amped-up investigations being pursued by the House Dems.

    Of course, it doesn't change the facts on the ground for the investigation into Russian election meddling and possible Trump family/campaign criminal conspiracy, but it should add nicely to the noise and chaos. Should impeachment be in the cards, the narrative groundwork being laid now will provide sufficient "whatabout"ism in the Republican base to utterly crush any chance of a conviction in the Senate.

    Well played.
     
  18. momo

    momo Seventh Year

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    Honestly, then we can't let people like that in because that's a risk. We have to be as open as we can be while taking minimal risks.

    On MRAs, they need to chill. But the same could be said about modern feminists. So I don't really know.

    On the three Virginians, as a conservative (who is independent of any political party) , I believe they should stay. If they're voted out, that's fine. If not, they're innocent. Let the people decide.
     
  19. Agayek

    Agayek Prisoner

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    I'm with you on the blackface stuff, but rape is a rather serious allegation and needs to be treated as such. Personally, I'd like a full criminal investigation into Fairfax and a trial, so that he is properly punished if he actually did what they're accusing him of.
     
  20. momo

    momo Seventh Year

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    If he did it, it's serious. That said, I seriously doubt this. Three top Democrats in scandal, the fourth in the chain being a Republican.

    An accusation surfacing years later.

    A powerful man being asked to resign.

    If you accuse anyone of doing anything to you recently, I'd say that you deserve an investigation. If you call the police the next day or even the next couple weeks.

    Anything longer is plain suspicious.

    The FBI can look into it but if they can't find any concrete evidence, the man shouldn't be troubled any longer.
     
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