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The Trumperium 2: Caesar by the Pussy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jon, Jun 15, 2017.

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  1. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    In my view, the big thing for immigration policy would be massively increasing funding for CBP (with a focus on camera and drone systems like Revan mentioned) and immigration courts, to try and speed up cases. Get a decently quick turn-around on immigration cases and things would go a lot smoother.

    However, even that won't solve the problem, because there's still going to be overwhelming numbers trying to get in. And there's simply not a whole hell of a lot the US can do about that without taking the concept of foreign sovereignty out behind the shed. The only even vaguely realistic options are to either a) tear down the border entirely, or b) continue enforcing it and deporting people who violate it.

    A doesn't work particularly well because the borders are the most basic elements of the state, and a state that can't enforce itself doesn't last for very long, and b has all kinds of human rights issues that need to be considered.

    My preference would be that the various shitholes people are fleeing from figure their shit out, as that would solve the problem nicely, but if that hasn't happened yet, it's probably not going to now.
     
  2. chrnno

    chrnno High Inquisitor

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    I think he is talking about way before that at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century because during the Cold War the USA didn't really that much in Central America, especially when contrasted to much how they meddled in neighbouring South America(Except Brazil, we fucked up all on our own and share a part of the blame for how the USA approached the others).
     
  3. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    I mean, that's true, but it's kinda missing Sauce's point. Which is that if people are that butthurt about shit that happened decades-to-centuries ago, why is their fallback plan to go on a rather hilariously unsafe and difficult journey to the place they allegedly hate?
     
  4. Conquistador

    Conquistador Professor

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    My proposed immigration policy would be a little different than @Darth_Revan 's, though it would still be based around promoting immigration. You could argue that immigration is a crisis, but that's because we aren't approaching it correctly.

    80% of American counties have a decreasing workforce. Yet you still have illegal immigrants going to cities and larger communities. Allow low skilled workers into the country, but only if they agree to go where they are needed. There are plenty of low skilled jobs and very few American want them.

    High-skilled, merit based immigration needs to drastically increase. America has been able to retain it's position at the top for so long because the best minds from all around the world come here. To thrive, this nation needs to be the ideal place for those with merit. A nation is no more than a group of people. And we want the best people. As many of the best people as we can get.
     
  5. Hakairyu

    Hakairyu Fourth Year

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    You don't think that has at least partially to do with the Americans wanting stuff like minimum wage and all the rights a worker has under the law, whereas the immigrants can't negotiate that? I understand you guys aren't used to hearing immigration being criticized from the left and all, but unskilled immigration subverts labor rights and makes people work for subsistence and that's why it's good for the economy; I believe that's called exploitation? You'd think the liberals and progressives would at least be talking about how creating an underclass of mostly ethnic minorities who do the jobs white people don't feel like doing today might not be perfectly woke, but I guess they won't touch anything that even remotely reeks of class with a fifty foot pole. And even promising every immigrant completely equal rights, aside from being really unworkable, would not fix the problem entirely. Aside from the rather high likelihood that most of them don't speak the language that well, would not be aware of what rights they do have, etc.; the idea that group A does these jobs and group B these and so on is so entrenched I'm not sure you can really undo it at this point, not that you guys seem willing to; you reinforce it every time you go "well the whites don't want those jobs anyway" as though that's completely fine. The veracity of that statement aside, it's not about what they want, is it? Someone has to do them, and they would be doing them, if the labor market didn't provide the much easier (and cheaper) alternative of people who can't sue you back. But yeah, it's good for the economy and people like you and me. I mean, I don't think anything's contributed to the growth of racism in the postwar west as much as the ethnicization of labor, but surely something that's so profitable can't possibly have major repercussions that have already started biting us in the ass. We'll just dress it up in nice sounding language, it'll be fine. And before someone brings up "they do better work", of course they do, so would you when it's "be nice or Honduras".

    Oh, and if you're into eliminating prejudice, introducing so many minority lower class laborers who and their children likely won't receive anything approaching a decent education into society to the point where entire ethnicities become synonymous with low status jobs and poor uneducated people might not be the best attack plan.

    I'm very much agreed on this part though. I'm sure some would argue this undercuts the ability of developing nations to, well, develop, when their best and brightest leave at the first opportunity, but that's those countries' problem. Even though it does lead those countries to try and push nationalism/patriotism to unhealthy levels to give their people a reason to stay, that doesn't tend to work well for the people they want to keep. And conversely to the previous point, introducing skilled minorities and foreigners into good jobs probably does good for societal attitudes.

    Been wanting to get that of my chest for a while now, sorry if the tone's a tad too vitriolic and all that.
     
  6. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, this is something I like to bring up whenever I end up discussing illegal immigrants and the issues thereof with the more ardent leftist types, and I don't think I've ever heard a good answer to it. If anyone here on DLP has one, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

    It's just never made sense to me that "we want to open the borders and create a permanent underclass of brown people to do our manual labor" is the default progressive stance on immigration. I assume the plan is "let them in and then they'll pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become educated and middle-class in the exact same way inner-city blacks, rural whites, etc have been failing to do for the last 50 years", but that seems contrary to a lot of the other rhetoric, so who the fuck knows.
     
  7. Zerg_Lurker

    Zerg_Lurker Order Member DLP Supporter

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    I think the original point had less to do with how the people feel about oppression under US-backed dictators and more about how likely American intervention would fuck shit up even further, especially considering the current administration.

    Because who gives a shit about other peoples' feelings, really?
     
  8. Hakairyu

    Hakairyu Fourth Year

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    "But this country was built on immigration (read: exploitation until some of the groups integrate in the decades to come), it's how it's always worked" is such a wonderfully conservative argument from the liberal side, too.
     
  9. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Not to mention that saying illegals "do better work" is often just a nicer-sounding way of saying "they're willing to work unpaid overtime on 14-hour shifts 7 days a week" and the only benefit the employer has to provide is not reporting them. The problem with getting white people to do those jobs has never been that whites are somehow unwilling or unable to do manual labor, it's that they won't do for these jobs for the wages and in the working conditions that illegals put up with.
     
  10. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    To add to this little fun: The NYT revealed that these measures had already been agreed on by and large, back in March. There was an increase in scope (more Mexican national guard troops, for one), but... that was only instituted this year. Can't imagine they have a lot of people ready for it.
     
  11. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    When it comes to unskilled labor from illegal immigrants, you're spot on. It's exploitative labor that pays lower wages under the table. That's why I mentioned H2A (farm worker) and H2B (seasonal unskilled) visas in my post. Credentialed workers are entitled to the minimum wage and full benefits, and, because they're in the open, they won't be blackmailed into silence by an employer threatening to go to ICE if they misbehave.
     
  12. Solfege

    Solfege Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    A lot of immigrants remit nontrivial amounts back to their home countries. That being said, totally true conditions are brutal. I'll pull up this NPR article on the experiment they tried back in the '60s getting high school and college kids/jocks to work a full summer at minimum wage.

    Here's a fact most Americans miss. For all the talk of farmers as hardworking salt-of-the-earth people (and they do work hard, though not necessarily smart), farmers are management. Not working class. And indeed US farming history is strewn with [lobbied] dependencies on exploited underclasses.

    Fifty years of baggage that newcomers tend not to have. I wouldn't put too short a shrift on the hunger and discipline of the kids so closely affiliated to the migration event.


    ====== EDIT
    Since we're on the subject, hard to underestimate the losses incurred by the corn industry this year, and in years to come.

    Screenshot 2019-06-09 13.19.50.png
    Screenshot 2019-06-09 13.20.59.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  13. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    That's kinda my point. The conditions are awful, the work is miserable, and the pay is terrible. Americans would be perfectly willing to do it if at least one of those points was addressed, but it never will be because migrant labor is perfectly willing to put up with it, presumably because no matter how bad it is, it's still better than Honduras, for example.

    Supporting the existing system means, ultimately, supporting the exploitation of brown people so that you'll pay a dollar less for that potato or whatever. So it's never made sense to me why progressives are so against regulating immigration.
     
  14. Solfege

    Solfege Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Same reason conservatives are against regulating guns. Slippery slopes, strawmen, and limited political/media bandwidth occupied by wrongheaded policy suggestions motivated more by ideological arguments (border control) than serious policy discussion (immigration reform).
     
  15. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I think its worth pointing out that one reason the left is against regulating immigration is voting and donations. So long as the right holds their hard stance (and the left can easily paint it as racism because so many are actually racist) on regulation, immigrants are more likely to vote for the left...

    at the same time the left can continue to receive donations from the big companies that do exploit the labor. The left gets to have their cake and eat it too with such policies.
     
  16. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The more charitable version of this being that we genuinely think that immigration is too strict and needs modernization anyway, and that immigrants, seeing that and appreciating the support, reward liberals with their votes.
     
  17. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    That’s nice. I’m sure you’re this charitable towards the right. If you're going to take the left at face value and assume the best of them, you might want to do the same for the right.

    Rather than painting with a widebrush, I would agree that on both sides there are those that generally care and want to do what's best for the country; and then there are those that just want the money and the votes.

    As for the actual question I was addressing, (the fact that the left doesn't seem to have an answer for protecting immigrants from abusive labor), my point does offer the best explanation. Because under your charitable explanation, there doesn't seem to be an explanation for why the left does not seem to care about those issues.
     
  18. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    I'd say that they do care, they just see immigration reform as the ultimate solution to the problem. The best way to cut down on exploitation of illegals is to make it so that they aren't here illegally. The main reason they're exploited is the constant fear of being reported to ICE and a general fear of any government entities, including the ones that could actually protect them.
     
  19. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Except that's rubbish, I just gave an answer for protecting immigrants from abusive labor practices: Bring them out into the open on legal visas, and then they can't be exploited.
     
  20. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    And that answer completely ignores the issues others have brought up with it. That you're creating another social class based on ethnicity that will be exploited even if they are legal. Your answer is a nonanswer based on a hope based in a fantasy realm.
     
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