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U.S. 2020 Elections

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Conquistador, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. ILikeLurking

    ILikeLurking First Year

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    If you're going to be snarky about an innocuous statement and then later accept it, the least you can do is acknowledge that you were being a bit of a dick. And maybe not add a text-eyeroll to establish your continued snark. We get it. You're skeptical of anything hopeful and optimistic.
     
  2. Legacy

    Legacy Order Member DLP Supporter

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    Ignoring ILikeLurking, @Invictus, what are your thoughts on tying a form of living income to people currently going through education. If the main concern is that providing a UBI to people is gambling on whether they will work while receiving it, why not tie it specifically to re-education? I know the Dept. of Education has a few programs already in place such as the Pell grants but would having an application for a basic income tied to being enrolled in a job training program be enough to get over that concern? Have it last for a designated period of time- the timeline for education in whichever program is selected- that is known to both the government and the person receiving it, make it one that doesn't need to be repaid and is enough to cover living expenses during which the person is in the program. At the end, you have someone trained for a new job, isn't burdened by tremendous amounts of debt, and is capable of re-entering the work force and providing a higher taxable income. Also dodges the issue of them not working since hey they aren't getting money anymore and need to put that new job set to use.
     
  3. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    You're just describing a mix between Brazilian University Income programs and Bolsa Familia, which works basically as a kinda UBI for really poor people as long a they enroll their children at school and make sure they go everyday.

    But these are programs for actual poor people who would otherwise not be able to survive without such money. They're measures that don't really help for long term prospect, they're just to get people by and not be scrapping at the bottom. I feel like that is not an issue US citizens commonly face, even the poor ones, actual starvation or homelessness. Poverty in the US has another face, with more goods but also significantly more bills to pay. These programs are actually meh on improving people's lives in the lon term. With it and the economic boom, extreme poverty in Brazil decreased significantly. But would the crisis, it basically went back to the same level of before both he programs and the economic crisis. So by themselves, and with only shitty Brazilian public education, as I said, don't expect much besides letting people not starve.

    If I had to set up a system like that, of UBI, for the US, I would tie it both to a High School Diploma and either vocational schools (which would be need to step up hard, but are my preferred option) or college presence and graduation. Maybe lump sums for graduation at these to boost people's job search .

    Just giving people easy money forever won't boost long term quality of life improvement, unless it's in very significant quantities and you will have to teach them how to manage it even then, and soon people will be pissed that their hair earned money are given to others to "do nothing", leading to the US problems that we are seeing. Better give the person the better paths to success, and then cut them loose after what sometime. Of course, some cases will always need help or are just unable to live on their own but we're talking a solution for most people here.
     
  4. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Honestly, I like the idea of an education-based UBI, where you essentially get paid a livable, if meager, wage just to go to college or a trade school. It would be comparatively cheap, and likely affordable simply by closing the tax loopholes and excessive exemptions universities enjoy (my initial thinking is like a 30% tax on investment gains), and it would be a nice incentive to get people into the schools and learning skills that can't be automated into irrelevancy.

    It would also help a bit in driving up the wages for part-time and low-skill workers by largely removing college kids and the like from that pool of potential labor, though I'm not sure how big of an impact it'd have there.
     
  5. Wizard Giller

    Wizard Giller Seventh Year

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    I would favor doing UBI via tax refunds in the US. For example, charge the top 10% an additional 10% on their income taxes then divide it up distribute it to everyone who files a tax return with a cap that it can't more than double your income such that you actually have to work to get it. Such that if you report 2k in earnings because you didn't work much that year you can't get the same 10k bonus of someone who made minim wage and earned 20k pre ubi.

    I don't like tying it to education because that basically serves as a subsidy for schools that encourages people to get as much education as possible rather than the right education for them. I personally think that our education system needs a lot of changes which mostly boil down to more trade schools for those whom a college degree is wasted on.

    I don't like the Finnish test because it gave people license to loaf - there was no work requirement. A ubi that pays people who make minimum wage (and everyone else) an extra few bucks an hour is one I think should be easy for everyone to get behind.
     
  6. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    About 12% of the labor force is made up of college-ish age kids (16-24) so it would have a decent impact. If nothing else, it would help prevent businesses from preying on this age group as cheap disposable labor. By the time these kids enter the job market, they'd hopefully be qualified for the job that they've studied for and would be paid a fair wage instead of having the life sucked out of them while they're desperate for cash to pay for their education to become qualified.
     
  7. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    College student here. I'll gladly take more money.

    Georgia has something similar to what y'all are describing though not necessarily enough to live on.

    With Pell grant I get around 3k per semester.
    Then Hope Scholarship (If you have above a 3.0 GPA), gives another 3k.
    For high school graduates that had a 3.5+ when they graduated, there is the Zell scholarship that gives another 3k.

    So 9k altogether. Not necessarily enough to live on, but enough to attend college for free and have a place to stay.
     
  8. Heleor

    Heleor EsperJones

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    My main concerns with a UBI is that unless the issues with taxing the billionaires are fixed, it would be primarily a tax burden on the working professionals, and the extra income would just end up being redistributed into the wealthy pockets. (Increased rent -> goes to landlords, increased purchasing power -> buy from the wal-marts) Especially in the income tax case, as the hyper-wealthy don't pay income tax.

    (I'm slightly biased as I'm in the 10% but it's not like I make or have millions of dollars. I still need my paychecks to live.)

    This is not data-driven, but nor have I seen any data refuting this.
     
  9. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    This is a not-insignificant part of why I like the idea of it being an educational/training remit more than a generic UBI, as it's much simpler to tax the universities and the millions upon millions of dollars they make every year to fund such an effort.
     
  10. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Minister of Magic

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    Just picking this comment back up because I want a source for the incest claim. A quick wikipedia search gave me nothing but that it's illegal here, and punishable with up to three years of prison.

    I sure got a laugh out of the Zoophilia thing. I never knew courts in Germany had debated this and came to the conclusion that consensual is fine but forcing it is not. I've no idea how they're defining consensual in this context. What are you to say in front of the court, that the cow was making eyes at you instead of mooing no?

    As for the "guild" thing, I don't really see an issue. As far as I know we've got them for doctors, architects, tax people, etc. They regulate the market in so far as that not every schmuck can call themselves something they haven't studied for, and that those who fuck up in their profession actually get held accountable by losing their practice. They also stand for the interests of their respective professions.

    No one I know has had trouble getting a job or joining the "guild" because of too strict regulations. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't happening, but if it is, I never heard of it, neither in person nor through any media channels. To me it honestly seems like a non-problem.

    But again, I do give you points for the Zoophilia thing. Learned something interesting there about good ol' Germany. We are an eclectic country of cow and pig fuckers.
     
  11. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    How is a guild any different from the legal Bar? Or the AMA? No one has a problem with them. If we had professional organizations like those for other professions, it would probably improve the quality and weed out charlatans.
     
  12. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    The guild thing is like this. Can I join he market whenever I want with some certificate or do I have to follow all the "guilds" demands which includes years of apprenticeship, with regular members of the "guild" and market reservation is tightly protected? If yes, than yes, that's literally how protectionism work in the job market. You don't ban people usually, you just make them go through such effort and work and be part of your group, creating a captive market that only you can be taped for. German trade school system and blue collar professionalism is commendable in that gives off quite the quality of life for those in, but it is an extremely expensive, long and laborious system to get into when compared to the American one of "just roll" or "do this year or two year long course and roll" system for most of these professions.

    The problem isn't for those in, but those outside who can't or don't want to get into. Like with everywhere where Unions create such system, such as France and Sweden, you easily find out that immigrants/poor minorities, low skilled ones, fit in the category of the out much more easily, and thus have very high unemployment level, specially among the young.

    Regarding incest, it was my mistake. You only have legal same sex incestual relationship, due to how your law was done + your government ethics panel and left-wing media strongly called for it to be legalized, or "decriminalized" which in practical terms here is the same thing here. I read more sensationalists news a couple years and remembered wrong, since English press was basically treating it as legalized already.
     
  13. Longsword

    Longsword Groundskeeper

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    Why do you think it wrong to decriminalize incest ?
     
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Why don't you go to your friends and family and ask them if they want to fuck their siblings or mother or father, and if they don't, why not? After, please relate their answers here. I will answer you gladly then.
     
  15. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Minister of Magic

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    I can't speak a lot to the guild thing, but I did a quick google search into the architect guild of Berlin. To become a member you have to a) live in Berlin, b) have a certificate of a 4-year university education in architecture, and c) have 2 years of practice/apprenticeship under a master. That's 6 years of study (theoretical and practical) for a job that ensures your house house holds up and your roof doesn't collapse while you're sitting on the shitter browsing reddit.

    To be honest, while I can see the appeal of the "after two years you roll" approach you described, I favor the "six year, you better damn well know what you're doing before you roll" method.

    Edit: That point also holds true when you consider qualified workers from other countries trying to join the guild. I would still favor them having to do an apprenticeship, even if they already worked on projects outside the country. Germany is a very rule driven country. I'd not be surprised at all if our laws surrounding construction, etc. are vast and convoluted and need some time to be figured out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  16. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Sure, but we have tons of shitty plumbers and electricians, so are we really coming out ahead in this?
     
  17. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Two things. First, such long time either only studying or studying and doing sort time job, is a really big expense that strains the resources of families, specially families that don't actually have a breadwinner already.

    Two, an architect isn't a good example for what I'm saying, since almost anywhere if needs an actual college degree, and thus is expensive and time consuming even in the US. Think things like being a carpenter or a baker. These also take years for professions that are almost always self taught or family traditions in other countries. You really don't need someone that spent 4 years studying to get yourself a decent bread.
     
  18. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Minister of Magic

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    University, especially in comparison to other countries, is dirt cheap in Germany. What's left for the most part is the cost of living, and there are programs and subsidies in place that ensure you won't be stuck with debt for millenia. And during the two year apprenticeship you're paid. It's not free labor. So the breadwinner argument seems a non-starter. If it strains family resources then those of family's who can afford it, since they're not eligible for these programs.

    A baker's trade takes about five years to learn here. After 3 years of dual studies (half theory/half practical application) you can start working at a bakery for full pay. 2 years later you do your mastery exam, and then you're a fully self-sufficient master baker who can open his own bakery and take on apprentices himself.
     
  19. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    What our friends and family think about the morality of an act is irrelevant to whether or not it should decriminalized. I have plenty of friends and family who (unfortunately) still believe being gay should be illegal. Should that be relevant to this discussion as well?

    Decriminalizing incest between two consenting adults makes sense. I doubt you'll find many people who don't think its icky but that's not a good enough reason to make it a crime.
     
    HMM
  20. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    I mean, the reason to make incest a crime is the laundry list of genetic and developmental issues that a pregnancy is highly likely to lead to. Whether or not that issue is significant enough of an issue to actually punish people for is something I can't speak to, since I don't have any data on the subject, but there's very good reasons for incest to be made illegal, if only of the "preventing the normalization of the idea" variety, much like most drug laws.
     
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