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U.S. 2020 Elections

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Conquistador, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Not only is incest revolting, it's illegal for a very good reason: familial inbreeding causes genetic diseases. Do you want blue skin?
     
  2. Imariel

    Imariel Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Criminalization is, in essense, a norm of morality on any given subject. The morality absolutely matters.

    If you're arguing that it ought not be criminalized because it's a "victimless crime" that's another argument entirely which above posters mentioned one rebuttal to.
     
  3. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Someone working at one of Trump's favoured media outlets can do silver if you give him money. :sherlock:

    Normally, the entire hubbub of primary season at the Senate (let alone House) level kinda goes way over my head, but this one caught my attention..

     
  4. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Since two other people have already touched on the genetic issues incest causes, I won't beat that into the ground.

    While I agree with the overall principal that consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever, there's a lot of messy grey areas when it comes to incest. A parent/older sibling could easily groom an impressionable child to accept the idea incestuous relationship, even if they don't actually do the deed until the kid hits age of consent. It's not like hitting age of consent instantly lets a kid shake off a lifetime of being told they should have sex with family members.
     
  5. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    By that logic, we should make it illegal for people who are genetically predisposed to similar disorders to have sex, babies, or be married. Look, I'm not saying that I don't find the thought of fucking a family member vomit inducing but I don't believe it's my place to say what other people should and shouldn't do with their bodies if they're adults.

    Morality is incredibly subjective and shouldn't always be a guide to criminalization. There are plenty of people who genuinely believe that being gay, colored, atheist, whatever is immoral but that shouldn't be a consideration into the criminalization/decriminalization of those things.

    I agree but the kind of people who would groom a child for sex just because the laws says that you can fuck them when they hit the age of consent are unlikely to care about subjecting their child to sexual abuse (grooming them for sex) just because it's illegal. Decriminalizing it between consenting adults simply allows those who aren't subjecting each other to abuse to go about their life without the fear of being jailed for it. It also removes the taboo of the subject and may even lead to a decrease in the practice.

    Edit: I hope you're happy @Invictus. You've got me defending incest now.
     
  6. Agayek

    Agayek Totally Sirius DLP Supporter

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    By that same logic, we should decriminalize every narcotic under the sun. After all, that's people just deciding what to do with their own bodies.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you even, but the fact remains that that level of libertarianism doesn't really fly with most people in the modern age.
     
  7. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Death Eater

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    Can I vote we move on from this, lovely, discussion?


    I'm not intimately familar with Arizona politics, but isn't it a little bit early to announce candidacy for a Senate Primary? And does he have any political experience outside of being an astronaut and a congresswoman's husband?

    I'm not saying I'm necessarily against him, I'm just curious.
     
  8. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    You should read Kant or basically any other respected theorist about the nature of laws to know that's unbelievable shit. Laws are inside the morality realm, entirely.

    Anyway, if you think that immorality plays such a little role, than explain to me why having sex with 13 years old is illegal in a huge part of the Western world. Teenagers have sex, a lot tbf, and if you're worried about the power disparity in the relationship, that argument can easily be found in the incest problem, which you're here defending. So why? Because of what your parents, friends and relatives will answer. Because their morality is against it, and so it was codified for a peaceful society.

    But of course, you can always try to impose social values from above strongly, which can get you either the Reagan's Evangelical Strategy to the Death of the Weimar Republic, in terms of blowbacks.

    Law is morality. Laws are for a society to work well. A society where there's a dissonance between what the laws impose and what the people want is doomed to fail, specially in societies that rely on public will good.
     
  9. Imariel

    Imariel Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    @awinarock Morality is somewhat subjective, yes. But you're misinterpreting what I said. Not all moral statements are, nor mayhaps even should be made law. However, all criminalization is, inherently, a moral statement. Saying morality has no bearing on what ought to be criminalized is wrong. Saying it shouldn't in this particular aspect is another thing entirely. That's what I was trying to say.

    Yes, plently of people think these things are immoral, thus they were criminalized in one way or another for the longest time.

    @Rhaegar I You can vote, but we may pull an electoral college and ignore you.
     
  10. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I think it’s hilarious that awinarock is arguing for incest because he’s proving the fundies right.

    The anti-gay political bloc literally argued that “if we legitimize gay marriage, beastiality and incest are next.”
     
  11. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    You should read what people post instead of looking for key words that trigger you and going on a tirade about how full of shit they are. I'm not arguing that laws don't have a basis in morality, I'm arguing that they shouldn't. Morlaity can be compromised by biases and we have plenty of historical examples of vile laws that were enacted on the basis of the moral norms of their time.

    Having sex with underage children is illegal because their brains haven't fully developed yet and having sex with someone much older than them can impede that development. Also because people consider it immoral and codify it into law.

    I think we may have a case of miscommunication. I'm in agreement with you that morality has a bearing on what iscriminalized. I'm only arguing that that shouldn't always be the case

    I actually do believe that we should decriminalize every narcotic and recreational drug. I think they should still be illegal to produce and sell (without a government permit) but I don't think that people should be jailed for being addicts. I'm pro-decriminlization/legalization for the same reason I'm pro-choice: I don't beleive that society should be able yo dictate what you can or can't do with your own body, including poisoning it by pumping yourself full of hard drugs.

    However, I have no delusions on the chances of any this happening in the current political climate or even the near future.

    And so what if they're next? Beastiality is (ideally) illegal because animals can't consent and don't understand what's going on, only that it feels good or whatever. So essentially it's illegal because its animal abuse. The fact that its immoral and gross shouldn't have a bearing on its legality. The same goes for incest.

    This is also forgetting that the anti-gay bloc didn't argue that incest and beastiality are next because they think they're going to be legalized too but because they equated homosexuality with beastiality and incest, and that they're on the same moral spectrum. That's one them, not me.
     
  12. Conquistador

    Conquistador Professor

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    Guys @awinarock is just trying to justify the Harry/Lily smut they write.

    bUt ThEy LoVe EaCh OtHeR tHoUgH.
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    You neatly ignored all if my points and came directly to pseudoscience. Sex between teens isnt illegal per sex, sex with some teens isnt illegal (think 16 and up), so you are telling me that literally only an adults penis of specific age, at certain specific teens nevermind the brain develops up unti 18-21, is what is going to prevent the right development. Nothing to do with morality. Seems like you don't even read what you post.

    My point, for fuck's sake, is that all laws are based in moarlity, that the idea of law is based in our morality and society moral norms, thats why they exist and always have been. What you are saying is such an anathema for the very idea of Law that you are literally ignoring all respected Law theories. Jesus.
     
  14. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Dude...you're equating homosexuality with beastality and incest here just as much as they did. That's my point.
     
  15. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Animals dont consent to being eaten. Animals dont consent to be used as draft. Animals dont consent to be kept locked as pets. Animals dont consent to be used for lab tests. Animasl don't consent to us taking their young and selling them for profit. Why only for sexual matters this is considered abuse, besides explicit violence? Because deep down, aside the massive aparent hipocrisy, is because people consider it immoral, that is literally the main reason.
     
  16. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    Can plants consent? This is my question for you.
     
  17. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    From nonsequitur land?
     
  18. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Dear god, stop.
     
  19. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    I think most pantheons have left the building already. Excepting Zeus, of course.
     
  20. awinarock

    awinarock Fourth Champion

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    https://defendinnocence.org/child-sexual-abuse-brain/

    Hardly psuedoscience.

    And the relationship between the law and morality doesn't seem to be as clear cut as you make it out to be either.

    http://www.ethics.org.au/on-ethics/blog/september-2016/ethics-morality-law-whats-the-difference

    Sex between teens and adults is also wrong due to the inability of teens to properly consent because of a large difference in brains development.

    Nor have you answered my about all the historical examples of abuse perpetrated by the law under the excuse of morality. the

    No, I'm not. My point is that personal morality is highly subjective and that if an act doesn't disrupt the community's ability to function and doesn't abuse or infringe upon the rights of another, it shouldn't be illegal. Beastiality should be illegal because its animal abuse. Incest between two consenting adults shouldn't be illegal so long as neither party has shown any indications that they groomed the other party for sex while they were a minor.

    I agree, it is hypocritical but the need for meat to survive, for test subjects for medical progress, for the presence of household pets due to domestication and the symbiotic relationship between pets and their owners supersedes the immorality of overriding animal consent. Having sex with an animal isn't necessary for society and communities to continue to function so it can't be justified by utilitarianism.

    The best and realest God of them all.

    Edit: Could a mod please move this discussion to a new thread?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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