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U.S. 2020 Elections

Discussion in 'Politics' started by TieHat, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    Bonus Points if the convention opens with Bernie Sanders giving a public reading of "The Office"
     
  2. Silirt

    Silirt High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    He has some idea of who his supporters are, but I would only expect that if he's got any of Hillary's old campaign advisers. Whoever thought that 'pokemon GO to the polls' was a good idea is probably a redditor.
     
  3. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Pokemon Go voter reg and GOTV . . . it was not a terrible idea. Trying to find people in places where there are lots of them is a tried and true method of voter reg. What was stupid was the rest of the program.

    You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

    (but for serious, that was not me.)
     
  4. PomMan

    PomMan High Inquisitor

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    I mean... yeah? People's sexual lines and standards are personal and should not necessarily be explicitly defined and explained on a societal level to account for interpersonal differences. If someone is feeling uncomfortable, even if most people would be feeling comfortable in their position, it is up to them to decide where their line is and if their line is being crossed. Imposing a universal standard of sexual ethics seems to me an effort in futility aside from bare basics which are already explicitly defined and explained in the law.

    Or did I just misunderstand what you were saying?
     
  5. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    I think what he's getting at is that subjective standards make justice impossible, because the foundational idea of such is that everyone is treated identically, in addition to making it impossible to adhere to such a standard in any kind of practical setting, as people are not clairvoyant and cannot divine that something they've done has violated a standard that has never been defined (not to mention the inherent problem of "person A interprets the standard as X, while person B interprets it as mutually-exclusive Y" and how you're supposed to sort that out).

    As a result, it is... rather silly to try and impose such a standard, and ludicrous to punish someone for violating it. And if you're not going to hold people to a standard of ethics, or punish them for failing to meet it, then there's no point in having that standard in the first place.

    It's certainly true that different people have different thresholds for comfort and all that, and any sort of standard of sexual ethics should certainly try to account for that (hence why there's an explicit definition of consent), but a standard people are going to be held to needs to be objectively and explicitly defined, or there is no way to apply it in anything even vaguely like a just manner.
     
  6. Arthellion

    Arthellion The Chosen One

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    Agayek covered it. Essentially that group was arguing that sexual harassment didn’t need to be defined because people should just know what it is and it’s ok to punish people for crossing that line even though the line isn’t defined.

    I was literally struggling not to jump in. Arguing people should just instinctively know is unjust. For example, people born on the autistic spectrum in many cases aren’t able to pick up that they are making the other person uncomfortable. Etc.
     
  7. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Must you shatter my (our collective?) delusion? It was such a nice one.
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Had too many friends who worked too hard for a long time to make this happen to take credit (even in jest) for what they accomplished.
     
  9. vlad

    vlad Banned Prestige

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    One big problem is that "harassment" and to a lesser extent "bullying" have been redefined.

    Historically, harassment is behavior that is sustained, after the inflicted has requested you stop.

    A wolf whistle, a suggestive joke, even a proposition for sex may be uncouth but is not harassment if it is a one time thing, and ceases after the other party rejects or makes clear their demands to stop.

    This way, each person can have their own definition of what they tolerate, but it is not a legal issue until someone knowingly violates their standards and willfully continues to do so. Now though, we have one-and-done which is unjust.

    Lest anyone want to sperg: no, this doesn't somehow excuse 'one time' groping or ass slapping: that would be assault and battery. It does not prevent companies, schools, etc from laying down required standards, beyond the leg. It does not allow threatening comments that would classify as assault.
     
  10. Arthellion

    Arthellion The Chosen One

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  11. The Iron Rose

    The Iron Rose Headmaster

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    Gee the next time a man shouts how badly he wants to fuck my ass in an alleyway I'll just politely decline and let him know the attention is unwelcome, that's a good idea that definitely won't get me raped.

    I don't think that street harrassment necessarily merits jail time or whatever but it should definitely be a misdemeanour and it should definitely get his ass fired.

    there is a quantifiable difference between wolf whistles and street harrassment which happens every day and someone genuinely prepositioning you. Maybe there's a chilling effect on the latter but frankly that isn't the worst thing in the world either.
     
  12. Arthellion

    Arthellion The Chosen One

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    I mean. I agree. Explicitly defining harassment on the verbal level and the difference between that and a respectful proposition would fix a lot of things.

    I’d argue a lot of the reasons behind a lot of sexual harassment is that, culturally, it has been unacceptable to walk up to a person and ask for sex. So you have only idiots doing it in a assholish manner.

    Creating a culture that values openness on sex and consent will do a lot to get rid of harassment imo. It should be perfectly acceptable to go up to someone you find attractive and ask for sex. If they say no, anything further is harassment.

    The issues that face that though is 1st amendment, and ingrained cultural mentalities.etc but at the very least the latter can be changed over time.
     
  13. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    Is "call him an asshole and walk away" really not an option or something?

    I get it's not pleasant, random strangers being cockgoblins never is, but there seems to be a really obvious solution to that kind of thing.
     
  14. Arthellion

    Arthellion The Chosen One

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    Regarding this (as a dude not fully having the perspective) a lot of it deals on location. My sister, mom, and other females in my social I know are very confused by all the sexual harassment coming out. They don’t get cat called. They haven’t experienced that sort of harassment because they don’t go to the places where the males who engage in that go.

    Some places, there aren’t people/crowds around who could help the woman in that situation.

    In that situation, calling him an asshole escalates things.
     
  15. The Iron Rose

    The Iron Rose Headmaster

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    So I despise call out culture in general but making it a misdemeanour, snapping a photo of Mr. Asshole and posting it online and launching social media campaigns is probably the best way to discourage it that I can think of. It's one of those things where it'd be very difficult to prosecute, but criminalization can act as a deterrent nonetheless.
     
  16. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Oh, trust me. I've tried. It almost never ends well. Usually they get offended, start calling me names and a few times threatened or tried to intimidate me. It's never worth it as it only takes one fucked up guy to seriously fuck me up. I'm five foot nothing, 105 pounds. Yeah, I'm fucked.

    It's like being next to a bear. 9 times out of 10 they will just snarl, try to intimidate you and then walk away, but are you really going to do anything that risks setting off a bear?
     
  17. Agayek

    Agayek Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    The bigger point I was getting at is "just leave", the calling him an asshole part was ancillary. You don't have to stand there listening to it, just walk away, and if he tries to stop you, there's all kinds of pretty serious laws he just broke.

    From where I stand, most of this kind of shit is fairly analogous to someone hurling insults at a random passerby for bumping into them or whatever. Yeah, it's a dick move, but no one's talking about fining them or getting them fired for it. The victim simply either responds in kind or walks off in a tetchy mood and that's that. I don't see why the specific case of catcalls or whatever is any different. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  18. fire

    fire Auror

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    Let's leave aside unasked for physical contact, which I'm sure every one agrees is morally and legally wrong.

    On the topic of mere words - even assuming that every man will stop when a woman asks them to lay off the wolf whistles/suggestive jokes/propositions for sex, if every/many men take this approach, then women would face a sustained stream of such aggravating horseshit i.e. harassment by your own definition. The fact that it is produced by many different people and not any one person doesn't make it better; indeed it makes it worse, since it's inescapable.

    Isn't this literally what the social justice warriors complain about, with regard to micro-aggressions? I know that isn't what you're arguing for, but it is what your criteria implies - small indignities that add up to the systematic derogatory treatment of people.

    Addenda: I don't wolf whistle, and literally no one I know does - hell, not even the street thugs in my country. Aside from being impolite and ungentlemanly, it doesn't even fucking work - what woman, in response to wolf-whistling, says, "Yes, I want to fuck this piece of shit?"
     
  19. Silirt

    Silirt High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    In terms of leaving, you might be stuck on a train or something. It's probably better to open carry, though if you prefer to carry concealed that'll have a positive externality in the sense that criminals would be less certain that their targets are unarmed. Obviously, it's complicated, there's no singular perfect response to everything, and it'll just be up to your judgement, but there's never a cop around when this sort of thing happens.
     
  20. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    That is one of the factors a lot of guys don't immediately pick up on; the size/weight/strength difference can have a really big impact on just about any interaction. To try and come up with a good parallel, I know I'd be very nervous and uncomfortable when dealing with a 7-foot tall guy who was 275 pounds of pure muscle who seemed like he might be seconds away from attacking me.

    (Come to think of it, that might be why a lot of the really big, physically fit guys I've known seemed to always be really calm and laid back. Maybe it's not just personality, but a learned behavior because if they don't seem chill it makes pretty much everyone around them nervous and uncomfortable.)
     
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