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US and Cuba normalizing relations

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Euroclydon, Dec 17, 2014.

  1. Euroclydon

    Euroclydon High Inquisitor

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    Didn't see a thread on this, so here we are. Links: NPR, NY Times, AP.

    This is kind of a welcome surprise. The embargo remains in place for now, but they are going to ease restrictions on remittances, travel and banking relations. Also there were some prisoner swaps that are taking place/have taken place.

    The NY Times article has a bit of a blurb from Senator Rubio who (predictably) disagrees with this move.

    So, what are your thoughts? I think it's long overdue. The cold war is over and done with and the only thing that has been seriously blocking this has been the Cuban immigrants in the US and the issue of remittances. But I suppose being able to do stuff like this is one of the advantages of being in your second term as President. No need to worry about trying to win those Floridian voters. I do hope that there will be a swifter political liberalization and democratization of Cuba as a result of this. The last 50 years of embargo certainly have not been effective in this regard.
     
  2. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Only a Republican could recommend as effective, with a straight face, a course of action that has been pursued for decades without result.
     
  3. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    It's about time. The embargo never worked. The only thing that works in changing regimes over time is engagement. People look for change when they see what their lives could be like.
     
  4. A Lightning

    A Lightning Slug Club Member

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    I support this. My maternal grandmother was actually a Cuban refuge, although she's unfortunately no longer around to hear this news. My mother has always wanted to visit Cuba, and this might soon make that a possibility.
     
  5. Lyrium

    Lyrium Sent Back to India

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    Cuban friend and her family are super happy about this, like overjoyed.
     
  6. azrael

    azrael Professor

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    Hmm, need to talk to my dad about this when we're both less busy, but he's a Cuban immigrant and I suspect his views will probably fall in line with Senator Rubio.
     
  7. golan

    golan Temporarily Banhammered DLP Supporter

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    Well, just lifting the embargo and nothing else would be doing not enough. How is Obama going to ensure, that the Cuban people profit from that policy change?
     
  8. CrackedMind

    CrackedMind Death Eater

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    They didn't lift the embargo. We're, as the article and OP said, easing up restrictions on travel/banking/remittances/etc and setting up an embassy in Havana.

    Even without the embargo being lifted, the Cuban people benefit from the fact that chilly relations with a country less than 90 minutes away are finally thawing. Tourism brings in money, and I know a lot of people who'd love to go to Cuba.
     
  9. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Administrator Admin

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    The same way the Arab world has benefited by having US culture pumped into their heads 24/7 until the Arab Spring happened. The same way Saudi Arabia is slowly going to benefit from it in the same way. You don't change anywhere by not talking to them.
     
  10. Lyrium

    Lyrium Sent Back to India

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    One of the main reasons for my friend and her family is to be able to travel there ... like to finally see where her family came from.
     
  11. golan

    golan Temporarily Banhammered DLP Supporter

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    I see. Some political commentators say the same thing about China:
    [​IMG]
    Hope it'll work that way!
     
  12. Arrowjoe

    Arrowjoe Auror

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    I'm both happy that steps are being made to end one of the dumbest US foriegn policies in living memory, and sad because my canadian all-inclusive cuban vacation packages are about to get more expensive.
     
  13. Red Aviary

    Red Aviary Hogdorinclawpuff Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I had to laugh when Obama referred to us as "former colonizers" when we're the ones who ensured Cuba received independence from the Spanish in the first place.
     
  14. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I've been continually baffled by this talking point. Why is the US responsible in any way for the welfare of the Cuban people? I don't see people evaluating US foreign policy on the basis of how it might enrich people in Africa, so why Cuba?
     
  15. Erandil

    Erandil Minister of Magic

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    How exactly did the Cuban people (or in fact anyone) profit from the embargo?

    This decision was long overdue in my opinion and I hope that the relations between Cuban an the US normalize quickly.
     
  16. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Did you really forget that Cuba was a 'protectorate', an all but in name colony, for decades, there was an independence movement, just like in the Philipines? Platt amendment son.

    Wikipedia:
    I agree in part with Xiph that the Arab Spring was in part thanks to the US influence. These talks can only benefit the American and Cuban people I think, trying to force your views didn't work, show them why believe it's better. And let's be frank, bar chaos like Somalia and Haiti or Orwellian North Korea, it's hard to get shittier than a communist nation led by egomaniac(s).
     
  17. Red Aviary

    Red Aviary Hogdorinclawpuff Prestige DLP Supporter

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    No, I just don't consider that proper colonization. We liberated them from Spanish rule (albeit the war was probably the result of a false-flag), said they would receive independence, and followed through with that promise. Even if you do consider the Pratt Amendment's terms to be colonization, then it's a far more benevolent form of colonization than Spain's. Not only did we not round them up in concentration camps, but Cuba prospered more than any of its Latin American peers until Castro and Che came along with their Commie shit and fucked it up.

    America gets enough bad-mouthing from cretins without our own President adding to it.
     
  18. CrackedMind

    CrackedMind Death Eater

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    Nor did Spain, Red Aviary. I can't say they treated them amazingly, but they didn't even consider Cuba a colony; it was a Spanish province, overseas. Yellow journalism took minor incidents and blew them out of proportion (not to say that there weren't issues, just no where near as bad as a lot of papers at the time painted them out to be) so as to sell papers.

    Basically, newspapers wanted war to sell more papers, politicians wanted war because they thought America needed a few colonies of it's own, etc. We then quickly beat Spain and installed a puppet dictator (which is why the popular uprising was so, you know, popular). Saying they prospered more than say, Mexico or Brazil, is debatable.

    Look, I'm as patriotic as the next guy. I love my country, and I'm proud to be an American. That doesn't mean that I can't recognize our faults as a country, and the fact that we've done some shady shit in the past. I understand why the President and government at the time did what they did (Benefit of the country > moral issues), especially when put into the context of the time. But I think Obama was right to refer to us as that, when the country was only given nominal independence in the early 1900s and was dominated by us for awhile after that.
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Banned

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    Look, saying Cuba was more prosperous is ridicolous. The economic disparity between those on the elite and mass was simply humongous, is like saying Mexico is prosperous because of Cancun. No is not. Those are american companies getting rich on the mexican sceney while using cheap local labour, catering to rich americans.

    And Fidel didn't fuck it at first, yeah Che was crazy and quite useless, but Fidel did good things for the island. The country is a reference on medicine, sports and education. Not saying the communist regime is good, far, but it does benifit the population on some way. What Cuba had before? Resorts and organised crime.

    Saying Communism is the root of all evil was antiquated and reactionary on the beginning of the XX century, just like saying the world is divided in classes is.
     
  20. fire

    fire Auror

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    Few points:

    1) Either the embargo was effective, or it was not. If the former, then we're just imposing humanitarian costs on the Cubans, and for what? For the crime of living under a authoritarian communist regime? If the latter, then seriously - let the relic of the Cold War die.

    2) The embargo was never going to lead to political change. Hasn't for the past fifty years, and there is no reason to think it will just because we wait a bit longer. It's very hard to impose regime change from the outside, unless you attempt military intervention (and even then it's impossibly difficult, as Iraq shows). It's both wiser and more humane to let things change as time goes by. China is by no means the paradigm of freedom, but things are better now than they were 3 decades ago, both in terms of the standard of living, and in terms of having a middle-class willing to complain and speak up about various issues (most notably air pollution).

    3. I don't know why Americans are afraid of letting up the embargo on a country that can't possible threaten it - if anything, anyone who knows history knows that authoritarian regimes fear cultural diffusion and change - look at Iran and Russia and all those complaints about decadent western values and homosexuality and Hollywood and feminism etc etc. In the war of cultural mores, America has nothing to fear because it has so much goddamn influence in terms of books/movies/music produced.
     
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