1. Hey Guest, welcome back to DLP

    As you can see, we've changed our look. We've migrated from vBulletin to the Xenforo forum system. There may be issues or missing functionality, if you find anything or have feedback, please check out the new Xenforo Migration Feedback forum.

    Our dark ("Dark Lord Potter") theme is under heavy development. We also have a light ("Light Lord Potter") theme for those happier with a light background and darker text.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Please be courteous to staff and post NEW threads for NEW Issues, instead of posting them in threads that are not related to said issue.

USA Elections 2016

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Banta, Apr 12, 2015.

Not open for further replies.
  1. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,581
    Location:
    Cidade Maravilhosa
    Wait. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaait a moment there. Are you telling me, really, that Blue Collar Billionaire isn't just stupidity?
     
  2. Solfege

    Solfege Professor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    472
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    It's a very puritanical moral calculus, isn't it? If you're rich, you've been virtuous and hardworking; if you're poor, you're deficient.

    A good plurality of people continue to refer to Trump's business competence. Many haven't heard of details like his tax avoidance, and those who have either 1) wave it off as business acumen (the government didn't deserve his money anyway) 2) acknowledge it as a moral failing but treat it as exception, not rule 3) acknowledge that the system is rigged but see Trump as the price to pay for an agent of change

    There's a particular class sensibility at play here. Just as people blame their immediate point-of-contact (banks) when the financial system fails, because banks are all they know, so do middle-working class people chafe at the people in contact with them: the lower class they see and sometime serve, thanks to a social welfare system that may literally employ them; and the upper-middle class managers who order them around.

    Class is less about income levels and more about manners of living life, right? The conservative-leaning working class feels they can identify with the rich, who are mostly absent from their lives. The dream is to be your own boss, to preserve your own friendship networks and leisure rituals and communal values, etc. They don't want to be upper-middle class. They just want to be themselves, be amongst people who speak and think like them, but with more money and security/freedom.

    Plenty of people in the world who earn comfortable incomes but reserve "sensibilities" of origin, grew up with middle class insecurities or lower class habits. Trump never outgrew being a guy from Queens; money bought him admission but never belonging into the Manhattan socialite world. And there was a class or two above him where money couldn't even do that.

    Agency in the narration of a rigged system flips between class narratives. For urban liberals, the rich are the manipulators. For conservative working class folks, it's the rent-seeking nature of administrative centers (cities) and the managerial class. Like this one surgeon in western Pennsylvania said, "we could never be as much a threat to your way of life as you (urban liberals) have been to ours."

    There's a spectrum with a variety of moral/social exceptions, we're not touching other parts of Trump's base and other reasons why they'd vote Trump, but these are base underlying structures to work off of.

    And yes, if you feel you're hardworking and virtuous and still struggling, you're just a temporarily-displaced-millionaire.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  3. Garden

    Garden Minister of Magic

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,260
    Location:
    Florida
    To simplify: Trump is tacky in design choices (gold-plated everything), kind of trashy, consciously pushes against upper class sneering (aka political correctness.)

    He does feel pretty working class in those aspects.
     
  4. Solfege

    Solfege Professor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    472
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    Eh, I deadlift and like to get range time, but neither activity predisposes me towards asking generals for advice. It's more about the instincts behind choosing those activities...

    On the campaign trail there's a certain level of cohesion with people versus (strictly) talking at them, I think. There has to be a perceived commonality in person. A richer sense of background structure.

    There are also a good number of the rich who buy into their own self-made working-man myths.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  5. calutron

    calutron Unspeakable

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    701
    Having ambition and chafing at people who exclude you doesn't mean you're working clsss or have their behaviors. You're right Trump might have Been below the Rockerfelker's, but make no mistake he belonged to the same social circle as them. He was born with a slightly smaller silver spoon is all. Solfege
     
  6. Solfege

    Solfege Professor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    472
    Location:
    East Coast & the South
    Yeah, no. calutron

    I'm not putting Trump in that box. I was describing the working class specifically, how they might empathize with the rich, and common instincts they might share with Trump, who has a particular way of speaking and thinking derived from growing up in Queens. Queens real estate, which is where his dad operated, is a completely different market to break into vs. Manhattan. Most of my friends in school didn't even know suburban Queens existed. It's just a different world, even if his part of Queens was privileged, secluded, and white.

    There's a definite mythos about wealth, and the reality is that all new money tends to be loud and unsophisticated, it's only generations down the line where they "grow" into it, if it survives. Cornelius Vanderbilt was a crude, crude man.

    You're right that Trump rubbed shoulders within many social circles - if by that you mean, very generally, high society functions. But as I've said, there's a difference between "admittance" and "belonging." Money only buys you so much "admittance." Past that, old moneyed clubs and similarly exclusive private gatherings exist for a reason.

    And Trump can't get in to them. But it's mostly an issue of pride, new money's established their own lavish getaways. Old money is consigned to irrelevance in the general scheme of things, with their outdated values and sailing/camping expeditions. Everyone knows the rad thing is skiing in Val d’Isère. /s
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  7. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Order Member DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    This is a uniquely American perspective, where we conflate wealth with class. Do you think someone who dropped out of school and has been working temp jobs for the last fifteen years who lucks out with a winning lottery ticket is now upper crust? Class is history, manners, interests, education. Money can get you through the door, as Solfege said, but money isn't enough on its own.

    Do you think the political dynasties and heirs of nine generation fortunes looked at Trump when he was on the Apprentice and thought that he was someone with whom they wanted to spend time with? That he was a man of values similar to theirs, of interests similar to theirs?

    On the contrary, new money is looked down on by the old, established fortunes. They lack history, their concept of value is tied to how much rather than how unique, and they betray their upbringing constantly. The fondest wish of new money is to be accepted by old money, or at least that was the case for a long time. Industrialization and the information age have led to the rapid acquisition of fortunes that have created a new, moneyed class that doesn't feel inferior to the wealth of yesteryears. The technology boom in particular has had the biggest impact, but it's still a transition that we're undergoing now.

    Trump, in temperament, is a poor man with extra commas in his bank account.

    Edit: Ha, beat me to it.
     
  8. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Empire City
    High Score:
    2810
    All you needed to do was to see Trump's pitiful performance at the Al Smith Dinner to see how little he belongs in the circles he desperately wishes to.

    It's at the heart of his insecurity.

    Now he will be President, and maybe he thinks that his betters will finally have to accept him. I think he'll be sorely disappointed. Imagine his rage when he walks into a room, hears 'Hail to the Chief' by the Army Band...and still sees their lips curl in disgust.
     
  9. Menace

    Menace Minister of Magic

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,343
    Location:
    OH-IO
    And he'll still be their president. History will remember Donald Trump where most of his "betters" won't even be a footnote.

    I don't see him losing sleep over it.
     
  10. Banta

    Banta The Chosen One DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,181
    Trump wants people to like him, even people he's made enemies out of, so Old Money continuing to ignore his existence except when absolutely required is going to stick in his craw.
     
  11. Agayek

    Agayek Dark Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,924
    I'm with Banta on this one. Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of person who can tolerate insults from anyone, perceived or otherwise, regardless of the reason.
     
  12. Aetius

    Aetius Disappeared

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2016
    Messages:
    58
    High Score:
    0
    I don't know. He certainly didn't pander to old money elites or traditional conservatives at any stage in the election. I doubt he gives too many fucks what they think.
     
  13. bob99

    bob99 High Inquisitor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    519
    I think that perspective is because America doesn't really have a long history. There aren't many families in America who have inherited wealth going back hundreds of years. So most wealthy families haven't had the time to develop that history.
     
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,581
    Location:
    Cidade Maravilhosa
    Menace, Trump was a billionaire and a famous media star and he kept losing sleep because a second tier news outlet said he had fat fingers in tiny hands.
     
  15. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    354
    Location:
    Scotland
    High Score:
    3,485
    Sorry, how is Trump working class? He wasn't born into poverty, or even just into comfort. He was born into wealth. His father was born into wealth. His grandfather was the one who made the family fortune. And he died nearly 40 years before Trump was born, so there was no opportunity for him to pass on any working class ethos.

    I don't deny he's appealing to the working classes with his choices, but don't try to claim he's working class himself. He's not even particularly new money, at least in the US context.
     
  16. bob99

    bob99 High Inquisitor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    519
    It's now confirmed Trump's DoE wil be anti climate change. The next four years will be a disaster.
     
  17. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Empire City
    High Score:
    2810
    Correction: They appear to be trying to single out employees at DOE who worked on climate negotiations.

    I'm all for raising the Trump alarm when he does something crazy, but let's stick with the facts...
     
  18. bob99

    bob99 High Inquisitor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    519
    That's technically true, but I think the goal is to minimize or get rid of the employees who deal with climate change. This is AEA's blog. They support Scott Pruitt running the EPA, attack wind industry tax credits, attack the Paris Agreement, and issued this statement on redefining American energy policy. The head of AEA is also the head of Trump transition's energy team. Sure, finding out who accepts climate change might not be a big deal by itself, but the crazy part is Tom Pyle was hired by Trump.
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,581
    Location:
    Cidade Maravilhosa
  20. gorlosh

    gorlosh DA Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    167
    Sessions is a heavy weight politician.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Elections
  1. Xiph0
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,179
  2. Dark Belra
    Replies:
    104
    Views:
    12,589
  3. Darth_Revan
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    1,833
  4. Darth_Revan
    Replies:
    48
    Views:
    6,899
  5. ScottPress
    Replies:
    132
    Views:
    20,805
Not open for further replies.