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Wizard / Muggle Social Overlap

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skeletaure, Sep 21, 2021.

  1. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    What proportion of Wizarding Britain do you think lives in functional isolation from the Muggle world vs. those who live in close contact with Muggles?

    For those who live in close contact with Muggles, what do you see as the common situations in which wizards encounter Muggles and Muggle culture?

    Shopping is one - it seems likely that at least some wizards buy their food in the Muggle world.

    The pub is likely another. Only so many wizards can be using the 3 wizarding pubs we are aware of. A lot of wizards likely frequent the local in whatever mixed wizard/Muggle settlement they live in.

    The wireless is likely a way many wizards are exposed to Muggle culture. I think Wizarding wireless can still pick up Muggle stations? In which case its likely that a fair number of wizards catch Muggle music and maybe even news/programmes.
     
  2. Hansar

    Hansar Second Year

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    Well, given the average wizard's ability to dress like a muggle, most wizards manage to spend their lives without even seeing them.

    With what money? Wizards are paid in galleons, so to get food and other goods from muggle shops they'd have to go to Gringotts to exchange it, so it'd probably be easier to just buy it in Diagon Alley. Honestly, I'd imagine the food available there is also more varied and of higher quality.

    I don't think they do. Given Arthur's eagerness to ask Harry, and Hermione's parents, questions about muggles, it doesn't seem like he gets the chance to do so very often. Granted, Arthur probably can't afford to regularly go down the pub, but if even he doesn't regularly talk to his muggle neighbours, I can't imagine other wizards do. Going to the local pub would also require wizards to be able to blend in with muggles, which they can't.

    Locality and travel distance aren't really a problem for wizards, so I'd imagine there are a few more wizard only pubs and restaurants, situated in out of the way or scenic locations that wizards can go to when they want to drink or socialize. I think it would only be common with wizards who are in relationships with muggles.

    Music maybe, I doubt there's much difference between wizard and muggle output. I'm not sure about the news though. Wizards aren't going to know who anyone being talked about is and nothing that occurs in the muggle world will have any impact on their lives. They'd probably just change the channel.


    Do you think it's likely for there to be more overlap in the future? In the early 90s, kids going to Hogwarts would mainly just be losing access to TV and it would probably be easy enough to transition to the wizard lifestyle. However, eleven-year-olds today are probably going to be a lot less willing to spend nine months of the year without the internet. They're not going to want to use owls when they're used to calling or texting people. They'll be very frustrated by trying to find information in the Hogwarts library when they're used to Google.

    I'd imagine that today's muggleborns and half-bloods with a muggle parent would be far less willing to give up modern muggle conveniences and would remain far more connected to muggle culture, likely still using the muggle versions and trying to create wizard ones. Given how easy the internet makes it to keep abreast of things, some of the barriers preventing wizards from socializing with muggles might start breaking down more and more.
     
  3. aAlouda

    aAlouda High Inquisitor

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    I think we can be reasonably certain that there are lots of wizarding shops and pubs outside of the ones in Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and Hogsmeade.

    For one, we know that there are a thousand Fireplaces connected to the Floo, outside of those own by families. Which was mentioned in Rowling's Pottemore Article about the Floo Network.
    Even if we are generous say that up to half of those are in the Ministry itself, and give a few dozen to the Alleys and Hogsmeade each, there would still be hundreds of Wizarding Shops and Pubs around the country.

    We also know that Lupin and Tonks married near a wizarding tavern, as it was mentioned in his Pottemore Article.
    Otherwise I think we can be reasonably sure that most wizard live in mixed communities, as Deathly Hallows mentioned that many muggle villages had small magical communities inside them.
    I assume that you can expect many of those small wizarding communities to have some wizarding shop/inn.

    In general I expect that adult wizards never have to interact with muggles much, as they can use apparition or the floo to easily travel accross the country whenever they want and that when they dont, they tend to mingle with wizards that live nearby primarily. It would be trivial for most wizards to live in some rural area, while daily apparating to some job they have in the Ministry or Diagon Alley and also do their shopping there.

    On the other hand, Children are much more restricted in how easily they can travel(both before they enter Hogwarts and after during the holidays) and are more likely to interact with local muggles, if there aren't many wizarding children their age in the area. I assume that is the point where most muggle friendships and romances form, which may persist even after the wizard becomes able to freely use magic.

    I assume this is why according to the Pottemore article about Clothing, older people have a harder time dressing appropriately.

    Though I assume that most wizard usually dont have problems with interacting with their neighbours in a polite way in general, and more tolerant ones probably aren't above forming friendly and neighbourly, if not romantic relationships.
     
  4. Silirt

    Silirt Chief Warlock DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    The only overlap, in my estimation, is by necessity.
    Wizards have to assume that muggle relatives of wizards will just keep their mouths shut. There is no visible effort in canon to keep them quiet. It seems that because their kids are in Hogwarts, they're invested in the wizarding world as much as most other people, and if they see it as a basically good thing that the kids get to learn magic, which they almost certainly do, they keep quiet and it has never become a problem. As a result, they have to pay for their kids' school things and go to Diagon Alley to accomplish this. This is probably the only interaction between the wizarding and muggle world.
     
  5. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    Canonically we have at least two marriages between pureblood witches and muggle men: Merope Gaunt to Tom Riddle and Eileen Prince to Tobias Snape. So obviously there is interaction between even purebloods and muggles that goes beyond necessity.

    My take is that there's likely a large portion of wizards who choose to completely segregate themselves from muggles and can quite easily do so, at least if they live in the countryside. But on the other side, there's likely a huge number of muggleborn and half-blood wizards who don't have much contact with the wizarding side beyond necessity (potions, healthcare), who'll rather follow football than quidditch, and listen to cd:s rather than WWN. And then there's the people in between.

    Our perspective in canon is heavily skewed at the segregated people, given that Harry's only contact to wizarding world outside of Hogwarts or OotP is through through one pureblood family living in the countryside and working almost exclusively for major magical institutions.
     
  6. Alistair

    Alistair Seventh Year

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    There seems to be some strange disparities in the books on this.

    On the one hand, it seems that wizards can't have much contact with muggles if Mr Weasley is considered an authority on them. He must interact with them more than most out of necessity when resolving cursed doorknobs or enchanted teapots or whatever. Yet he's clueless enough that he can't even dress himself appropriately.

    It's also quite logical that a lot of the drivers that group muggles together in certain locations (work, social groups, hobbies, amentites etc) are mostly irrelevant to a wizard who can apparare or floo anywhere in the country without time or effort. There's no practical difference in commuting to Diagon Alley from Inverness versus commuting from Kensington to a wizard after all.

    On the other hand, it seems that even the most pureblooded families do in fact choose to live in proximity to muggles. The Blacks, devout pureblood supremacists, live in central London. The Gaunts, the least muggle friendly of all the families, live in a predominantly muggle hamlet.

    Why this is the case is utterly baffling, but that's canon for you.

    I suppose you might argue that even living in close proximity to muggles doesn't actually lead to a lot of contact or interaction. After all, if you floo direct from the living room or your house (which is plastered in muggle repelling wards) to Diagon Alley for the grocery shop, floo directly to work and apparate directly to your sporting events, your favoured pub and your friends houses for tea and biscuits, then the location of your dwelling is almost irrelevant. I very much doubt that Walburga Black was in the habit of hopping into black cabs on her way to Waitrose or jumping on the tube to go to the Opera after all. Even teenaged Sirius (or Fred and George) was probably more likely to sneak out via the floo to meet his buddies in Hogsmeade than slip out with a fake ID to visit the local pub or buy some tinnies at Sainsbury's.

    However, I think there must be some contact for education if nothing else. Maybe Sirius had wizard only tutos to learn how to read, but I fully expect that Snape, Lupin, the Potters, possibly even Ron would have gone to the local primary school for that, which would likely be a muggle run institution. How these families paid for that, or glossed over the sudden appearance of their children in the catchment area I can't imagine. The confundus perhaps, or some subtle ministry level comunication and meddling?
     
  7. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Second Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Given the timelines involved, it's just as likely that those areas were much less dominated by muggles at one point and the Blacks/Gaunts have merely maintained their presence despite muggle population growth. The Black manor could very well predate the Statute by centuries, or even have been a "country" manor on the outskirts of the City of London until London caught up to them. Given their motto is French, it's quite likely they established themselves as a familial institution some time between 1066 and the 1300's.

    Wizards are not compelled to flee their homes simply because muggles happen to be living in the nearby environs. They can just throw up the relevant protections and continue as they always have.


    It's worth remembering that public education is a very, very recent invention even in the muggle world. Before, there would have been small, private institutions, tutoring, or family-led education. I see no reason why that wouldn't have continued for wizards, particularly given the ease of transport. They could be taught by their families, or a local parent or retired instructor may have given lessons to small groups of wizarding children. There is no evidence that pureblood children are sent off to muggle primary school for a good six years prior to Hogwarts simply to learn basic arithmetic and reading.
     
  8. Otters

    Otters Groundskeeper ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The answer to this depends on whether we count mudbloods and filthy half breeds as real wizards.

    Which we do not.
     
  9. Hansar

    Hansar Second Year

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    No, the Blacks stole Grimmauld Place from it's previous muggle owner.
     
  10. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Second Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Fair as regards its distance to muggles, but they've had it for generations. Rowling described the relevant individual as an ancestor, so it's probably centuries prior at this point.
     
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