Possible Plot Hole, or I just missed something

[Vesvius]

Hey. When I was rereading Small Favor today, a question crossed my mind. If Mab took Harry's Fire Magic knowledge away in Chapter Six, then how can Harry do his little ball of sunshine against both Torelli's Goons and again in the Metro Station?

Anyone know?

[Ragon]

Not sure. Sounds like a ploty to me.

[fuubar]

Wasn't it just his evocation, or flame throwing magic that was taken? In the train station he also used the mini fireball for the sprinkler system and that was after his memory was taken as well.

[Tehan]

I think she just took the big ol' fuego-type fireblasts, the ones big enough that some of Summer's remaining traces of power would leak in. A bit like he used to do with hellfire, I suppose.

[Uthra]

As far as I remember Mab didn't 'take' any magic away from Harry. She took his blasting rod and blocked his memory of it.

He generally needs his rod to do the big fire evocations. The 'little ball of sunshine' was small enough to work without and obviously didn't attract Summer. His big fire magic only worked at the end against Tessa because he was really, really pissed off.

[XxEnvyxX]

The rod would have triggered memories and Mab blocked just his memories of the big fire stuff.Small things like this are a logical thing and if she would have blocked everything (to control fire is something wizards learn quite early and isn't such a great feat (I'm talking about big fire beams/walls/etc., not the small, compressed super beams Luccio uses, they are higher class), Harry said it himself in Storm Front when he commented on 'Monica's husbands show) and a large chunk of education would have been altered and/or erased.
But how often do you use big fire spells in quite day-to-day situations?
He just took the force and wind route instead.
She made him stop thinking about the fire spells as a solution for a problem that doesn't necessary requirers fire, but if a situation does require fire, that is something else.

[CheddarTrek]

Rather than starting a new thread this seems like a good place to post a few thoughts on possible plot holes.

(1) The White Vampire issues with true love. Thomas can't touch Justine without being harmed lately, because of love. When Lara kisses Harry in one of the more recent books, it's shown to hurt her because of what Harry and Susan had. It's been said that even touching something like a wedding ring belonging to someone truly in love could burn them.

So why can Thomas touch Harry without it hurting him? They do things like rap knuckles and whatnot sometimes. I know Thomas might often wear gloves but it seems like that isn't always the case when he and Harry have what minimal contact they have. Weren't they racing once in some sand and Thomas slapped a water bottle out of Harry's hand? I doubt there were gloves involved there either.

Only arguments I can think of are (1) they share blood and that somehow nullifies it and (2) it only applies to people of the opposite sex, but neither seems like a good explanation.

(2) Faeries and the acceptance of gifts. In Proven Guilty Lily, Fix, and Maeve all visit Harry at Mac's. All 3 of them drink Mac's lemonade. Now I don't know who paid for that lemonade, but it wasn't one of the Fey and it wasn't Fix. So either Harry paid for it or Mac gave it to them on the house.

Either way they accepted the lemonade and drank it. Now we saw Lea make a big deal out of gifts in an earlier book when she traded the holy sword for whatever gift she was given (though perhaps trade isn't the correct word, you know what I mean). We also have Harry telling Billy when they visited Undertown to be sure not to accept anything, even if it's just a drink. So obviously even a drink can count as something that needs to be, uhm, reciprocated? Not sure of the correct vocabulary here.

Anyway, am I missing something or do the Summer and Winter Ladies now owe Harry/Mac an incredibly small favor? Or was the drink somehow included in the exchange of information they engaged in? I tend to think Lily knows that Harry wouldn't try to use it to get something out of her, and Maeve might have just given a little more information than she normally would have in exchange. But I still thought it was neat.

Any other plot holes you guys can think of? Or reasons/answers to these I haven't come up with yet?

[frodrick]

1) Thomas can touch Harry because Harry's protection from the White Court is weak. The man hasn't renewed it for several years. It took some time, therefore, for his protection to kick in. When it did, Harry was kissing Lara, and possibly rounding the bases-a very overtly sexual act. Touching Harry, especially for a brief moment, doesn't trigger the protection.

2) That is interesting. Possible explanations: a) the lemonade was implied in the bargain, b) Mac owed the Queens a favor(very unlikely), c) this is a plot hole, or d) we've stumbled onto something big.

[Garlak]

The opposite-sex thing does not work--Justine burned a female vampire with her hair.

About the white court/true love thing... It's mentioned that not just people, but ITEMS given/touched by/significant to a loved one can hurt the white court. One example being touching a wedding ring.

Didn't Susan give harry his duster as a gift?? IIRC, she'd flirted with him over the phone by mentioning being naked and wrapping it around herself before passing it over to him... So couldn't Dresden's duster serve as protection against white court vamps?

Though in the Depths, Lara wrapped her hands around Harry, and she was only burnt when she kissed him... what, was there NO other flesh on flesh contact?? Or flesh on cloth??? Or it could be that since the contact was lessened and not as extreme as the kiss, Lara didn't mention it and Butcher didn't write of it...

If a person is loved, wouldn't the clothes he wears be included as part of the protection...? What if they were gifts from significant others..? Hmm..

[CheddarTrek]

I wouldn't think it had to do with what they were doing being an overtly sexual act. If touching a wedding ring (presumably even after one of the married couple has died, etc.) can burn immediately then it stands to reason that if you have protection it's going to kick in immediately whether it's weak or strong. Magic has a lot to do with intent, and wedding rings are inanimate objects. Though, hm, I guess it could be affected by the intent of the vampire, but then if just accidentally picking one up would burn then... that's... yeah, not intentional.

I could buy that the protection might be stronger if you are doing something sexual, or being forced to do something sexual via Vampire charm, than if you are just hitting your brother on the shoulder but I don't buy the delayed response. Maybe it just feels a bit "too warm" to Thomas or something. Like if you hold your hand a bit close to a fire for a second. No lasting harm but it's a bit uncomfortable for a second there til you move away.

You could be right though, we only have so much evidence to go on.

EDIT: Garlak. That's a good point about the Duster. I don't think normal clothing would be included but the Duster was a special gift from Susan to Harry when they were dating. The gift and the giving of it had a romantic aspect to it. Perhaps not as much as a wedding ring would have, but I could buy that maybe it would at least be uncomfortable for a Vampire to touch the coat -- or at least that maybe it should be.

[Ragon]

The thing about Thomas and Harry may be something left in the pendents their mother gave them.

The lemonade is likely just a plothole. Seriously how many people are actually going to notice that? Of course now that I have said that it will probably be something important that was purposely put in so people would feel stupid for not noticing it earlier.

[Samuel Black]

One thing about the wedding rings. They're a symbol of love, man. One of the ultimate symbols. Compared to an article of clothing given by a girlfriend, I don't really see much of a comparison.

[LittleChicago]

The burning effects of love are proportional to the strength of the Hunger at the time of contact. I don't think Thomas' Hunger wants to feed on Harry.
And mortal food doesn't count towards obligations - see Summer KNight, when Aurora gives Harry a sandwich. She says she "wouldn't offer the other kind," and no obligation seems implied for Harry.

[White Rabbit]

Mac's bar being a neutral ground might negate any transaction of that kind possibly.

[Necrule Paen]

Besides I would expect the Sidhe of both courts would go out of their way to point out when Harry or whomever owes them a favor but be pretty mum when they are the ones that owe it. If the person is unaware of the favor owed, the Sidhe is free to pay back the favor in their own time.

[Tehan]

Yeah, this was explained in one of the short stories, I think. Thomas can't touch Justine because his vampire side wakes up screaming DO WANT whenever she's around, and then freaks the fuck out at all that love. When he's around Harry, his vampire side goes 'meh' and dozes off.

This is because he's an atypical White Court dude. A lot of them have their vampire side running the show, so they always burn like fuck at love. Lara has her desire to run the show in control, so the vampire side only woke up when she started making out with Harry, and then the burny kicked in.

And mortal food doesn't count towards obligations - see Summer KNight, when Aurora gives Harry a sandwich. She says she "wouldn't offer the other kind," and no obligation seems implied for Harry.

I think she was referring to the legendary food of the Fae, which either makes everything else taste like ash in comparison, or puts you under the control of the local top Fae, depending on which stories you read. Either way, wouldn't be polite to give that to Harry.

And buying rounds of drinks at a pub is a human custom. If they hung out long enough to finish their drinks, then it'd be someone else's turn to pay for the next round. If it got around to her and she didn't pay her round, then there'd be an obligation.

[CheddarTrek]

The burning effects of love are proportional to the strength of the Hunger at the time of contact.

I don't buy this, but I need to read the short story in question myself I suppose. I haven't read all of them yet, though I thought I had read most of them. Could be it's explained already ^^

And mortal food doesn't count towards obligations - see Summer KNight, when Aurora gives Harry a sandwich. She says she "wouldn't offer the other kind," and no obligation seems implied for Harry.This is a good point. Though it brings up further questions about what counts and what doesn't. I had thought that either something was gifted and therefore a favor was owed or it wasn't. But apparently... hrm, perhaps it only applies to things which are magical to some extent? That might work. Fey food has a quality of magic to it, the sword did, etc. Well, that and things like information or actual favors.

[Garlak]

One thing I remembered: the string Harry used to hold Susan. Er... I don't recall what happened to it, whether or not JB wrote it as being "used up" but even if it no longer has the magic to bind a red court vamp if in Harry's home... it is an item with one HELL of a significance.

Basically, what I'm saying is that while Harry might not burn a White Court vampire by touch does NOT mean he is defenseless, or that he can't PUT UP defenses. He is a wizard -- one of the wise, like freaking Batman--give them time to prepare, and they WILL ruin your day.

The duster and the string are two items that I managed to think of that would make awesome components in a thaumaturgical spell... heh.. hehehehehe... hee. Ahem.


But I digress... The title is about plotholes .. even if we've gone on an interesting tangent.


"And buying rounds of drinks at a pub is a human custom. If they hung out long enough to finish their drinks, then it'd be someone else's turn to pay for the next round. If it got around to her and she didn't pay her round, then there'd be an obligation."

Hmmm... Well... the problem is... Jeez. My thoughts are hard to express on them, but reciprocity is a big deal in human cultures, and seems to be significant to Dresden Files Fae as well... But you see, there are so many cultures that you can find all sorts of example of customs, traditions, norms, and taboos... There are, in fact, cultures where saying "thank you" would be an insult implying that you had measured the monetary value of an product of service rather then it being politeness... There are cultures where doing things like providing food and shelter to others in your community is more basic and expected then asking somebody to please pass the ketchup when at a table...

Fae, however, seem to be big on not owing any favors, and repaying them when they can. And on completely screwing over those who make deals with them. Only JB can say with any real accuracy what it means--and even he can be mistaken or forgetful or not be unambigous enough in answering... there's a lot of wiggle room, the way I see it.

[Tehan]

But you see, there are so many cultures that you can find all sorts of example of customs, traditions, norms, and taboos...

Okay, it's an American pub tradition then, you nitpicking fuck. Either you didn't know what I meant, in which case you're an idiot, or you did and you pretended you didn't to show off, in which case you're a pest.

And learn to fucking quote properly. A good start would be the huge quote buttons under every single post.

[Garlak]

Well, I meant that the Fae act along their own rules... which aren't quite like ours. They curry favors/power and try to avoid obligations or recieving gifts. Who knows at what point doing something for a Fae will 'trigger' some kind of 'obligation' to them?

At Bianca's party, IIRC Leanansidhe couldn't accept from Bianca without giving something in return. Others had gotten gifts.. but the fae was the one who looked like she had to give a gift in return, or owe a favor.

Lea needing to exchange a gift, rather then accept it like other party-goers, seemed to be a Fae thing... it wasn't following custom... So what does that mean for the lemonade scene? ... I have no clue. I'm thinking nothing, but I then just get frustrated trying to figure out how much Fae can do and what their motivations are and all and start thinking in circles... Sorry for going on an odd culture tangent before.

[Tehan]

So what does that mean for the lemonade scene? ... I have no clue. I'm thinking nothing, but I then just get frustrated trying to figure out how much Fae can do and what their motivations are and all and start thinking in circles...

It means nothing. Under the whole buying a round thing, the drinks aren't gifts, because everyone ends up paying the same. She's now under an obligation to stick to the rotation established - that is, whoever payed this time won't pay again until the others also have - but she doesn't suddenly become indebted to whoever paid that round.

[Big D on a Diet]

I'm just skimming, so someone else might have already mentioned this, but familial love probably doesn't affect White vamps the same way as the other kind.

[Ragon]

Its not the love between Harry and Thomas, but the love between Harry and Susan not affecting Thomas like it did Lara.

[Big D on a Diet]

Ah, I see. Must have brain-farted that one. The obvious answer is that Thomas isn't trying to feed on Harry. Every example I can recall of a White getting burned by something lovey-dovey involved them using their powers in some way, either as an attractant, or actually feeding.

The classic example is Inari, who was able to touch and kiss Harry, no problem, but got burned when she tried to feed.

[Kalas]

Ah, I see. Must have brain-farted that one. The obvious answer is that Thomas isn't trying to feed on Harry. Every example I can recall of a White getting burned by something lovey-dovey involved them using their powers in some way, either as an attractant, or actually feeding.

The classic example is Inari, who was able to touch and kiss Harry, no problem, but got burned when she tried to feed.

It's been said before but basically this.


As for the lemonade thing, besides the obvious parallels with Aurora giving Harry food and no favors being owed, the point is equal trade, an exchange. You don't borrow a toothpick and have your repayment being your firstborn child.

[Wildfeather]

As for the lemonade thing, besides the obvious parallels with Aurora giving Harry food and no favors being owed, the point is equal trade, an exchange. You don't borrow a toothpick and have your repayment being your firstborn child.

Not that a Sidhe wouldn't try to get you to agree to that though, if they thought they could.

I do think that's a little strange, but I'd say that 'Mac's pub is accorded neutral territory' isn't a sufficient answer, at the Bianca's party, everyone was supposedly assured hospitality. You would think then, that any gift given (like food, or shelter) wouldn't need a reciprocal gift in return, and we don't have any screen time of Leannsidhe repaying the gift of food.

[Kalas]

Not that a Sidhe wouldn't try to get you to agree to that though, if they thought they could.

Lol, very true. You'll both agree to your the service/payment but the Sidhe will get the better deal is a better way of putting it.

[CheddarTrek]

I read the Inari thing differently.

She was able to touch Harry without harm because she isn't fully a White Vampire yet. Thomas is trying to keep her from going down that road, hoping she falls in love with ... Bobby? and avoids the life he and his other siblings live.

When she gets burned it's because that aspect of her is dominant. But it's not what she is yet unlike Thomas and Lara.

Actually I guess it could be read either way, but that was my take.

[Kalas]

Raith White Court Vampires feed through lust, with actual reciprocated love being poison to them (and presumably all WC vampires). Until they are Inari's age (18-21) they are a normal humdrum human. At this magical age however the phage that attaches itself to the souls of WC vampires begins to awaken and the first tenuous 'merging' of their selves begin, and they presumably become they physically perfect specimens they are. Its at this time the need to feed begins. If said vampire feeds on Joe/Jane the plumber it is fatal, their self and the phage's becoming permanently intertwined. If the first feeding is with someone they truly love, and is loved in return, the phage is separated never to return.

The only thing I wonder about is that Inari's initial feeding was seemingly triggered by her attraction to Harry. So what happens with underage sex? Safe, or an early merging?

[Tehan]

If popping the seal early would make them vampirised early, then Boss Raith would have tapped that as early as possible to get his psychic claws (and his penis) into her, the same way he did with his other daughters. So he's got to wait until her vampire side wakes up on it's own before slapping the dicking domination onto her.

Either that or Jim Butcher just wasn't going to go there, and you can't really blame him if that's the case.

[Jon]

(1) The White Vampire issues with true love. Thomas can't touch Justine without being harmed lately, because of love. When Lara kisses Harry in one of the more recent books, it's shown to hurt her because of what Harry and Susan had. It's been said that even touching something like a wedding ring belonging to someone truly in love could burn them.

It's the feeding part that burns them. Thomas feeds on Justine automatically, he's canonly admitted that Justine is the one thing that he and his vamp side both can't get enough of.

So why can Thomas touch Harry without it hurting him? They do things like rap knuckles and whatnot sometimes. I know Thomas might often wear gloves but it seems like that isn't always the case when he and Harry have what minimal contact they have. Weren't they racing once in some sand and Thomas slapped a water bottle out of Harry's hand? I doubt there were gloves involved there either. The feeding thing again.

Only arguments I can think of are (1) they share blood and that somehow nullifies it and (2) it only applies to people of the opposite sex, but neither seems like a good explanation.Neither of these are the case.

(2) Faeries and the acceptance of gifts. In Proven Guilty Lily, Fix, and Maeve all visit Harry at Mac's. All 3 of them drink Mac's lemonade. Now I don't know who paid for that lemonade, but it wasn't one of the Fey and it wasn't Fix. So either Harry paid for it or Mac gave it to them on the house.
Who's to say they don't have a running tab? o_ô

~~snip~~

Tehan so gets it. <3

Anyway, it was mentioned that the run in with the Black Court vamps jumpstarted Inari's vamp side into effect, due to shock, I believe.

Lara has her desire to run the show in control, so the vampire side only woke up when she started making out with Harry, and then the burny kicked in.

God I love that scene.

So far, what I've worked out is using their power, and feeding on a victim are two seperate things, which usually coincide. Lara is different from your average White Court vampire because she can control herself. She even blushes in embaressment when Dresden points out that she lost control.


<33

[CheddarTrek]

@Jon -- If it's the feeding thing that burns them, then why can accidentally picking up a Wedding Ring burn them? Obviously they aren't trying to feed on that, and I think it's too much to assume that those types of things only burn them if they are attempting to feed on someone at the time they touch it and no one knows it. (Unless I missed that bit)

I guess it's possible that rings and other such things only burn them if they are trying to feed when they touch it, but that seems like another iffy explanation. It's as good as anything else I've seen though.

And I agree with everything you said about Lara.

[Tehan]

Wedding rings aren't people in love, they're the very symbol of undying, life-long love between two people. Symbols are serious fucking business in the Dresdenverse.

And it wouldn't surprise me if, once upon a time, wedding rings were cripplingly agonising to White Court vamps, but the rising divorce rate has reduced them to merely painful.

[sparkar]

Wedding rings aren't people in love, they're the very symbol of undying, life-long love between two people. Symbols are serious fucking business in the Dresdenverse.

And it wouldn't surprise me if, once upon a time, wedding rings were cripplingly agonising to White Court vamps, but the rising divorce rate has reduced them to merely painful.

Then why does the scarf that Justine gave Thomas burn him if he touched it? I think the symbol thing is correct however it matters if it a symbol of love to the couple not in general. remember it is not the symbol in the books that are important but rather the belief in the symbol. Justine giving Thomas clothes is the only way she can find to show her love and both of them believe in their love and see the scarf as a smybol, same with wedding rings, wedding rings and engagement rings are symbols of true love to the people who give them, and people believe they are proof that their love is eternal.

[Jon]

Because it was made with love, durrr.

Never heard of that phrase before?

If she made him a sandwich out of love he'd get food poisoning.

[Oz]

Or just really bad curry squirts.

/shitting on your thread

[Catch42]

I think that while fairies are required to repay favors, circumstances and tradition due dictate what counts as a gift. Dresden invited Fix (and Lily included herself in the invite) to McAnally's, and therefore one might argue that it was therefore Dresden's responsibility to pay for the drinks; the payment made is that Fix bothered to show up. If I were to invite you to a party and then not specify any obligations concerning it, then I would not expect you to attempt to repay me for any food or drink consumed, as the fact that the guest came to the party is the payment rendered.

[CheddarTrek]

Another note -- and you'll have to bear with me here, I don't have a copy of the book with me and even I suspect that I missed something obvious -- but in one of the books, I think Summer Knight, where Mab asks Harry to investigate what happened to Raoul or whoever...

Harry owes Mab three favors because his debt to Lea got passed on to Mab in that form, etc. He gets to pick which favors he chooses to do for Mab to fulfill this.

In Summer Knight Mab asks Harry to look into the thing with Raoul as a favor. If I recall correctly Harry doesn't want to get involved and Mab's response is something along the lines of "Yeah, well, you'll see. You'll end up doing it anyway."

And true enough, he does. He goes to the White Council meeting where he gets cornered into investigating it anyway. Mab's comment, however, made it sound like she knew that would happen beforehand.

So why did she need to use one of her three favors here? If she knew he was going to be investigating it anyway then she could have just waited for him to come to her and used her favor for something else.

[Jon]

Another note -- and you'll have to bear with me here, I don't have a copy of the book with me and even I suspect that I missed something obvious -- but in one of the books, I think Summer Knight, where Mab asks Harry to investigate what happened to Raoul or whoever...

Harry owes Mab three favors because his debt to Lea got passed on to Mab in that form, etc. He gets to pick which favors he chooses to do for Mab to fulfill this.

In Summer Knight Mab asks Harry to look into the thing with Raoul as a favor. If I recall correctly Harry doesn't want to get involved and Mab's response is something along the lines of "Yeah, well, you'll see. You'll end up doing it anyway."

And true enough, he does. He goes to the White Council meeting where he gets cornered into investigating it anyway. Mab's comment, however, made it sound like she knew that would happen beforehand.

So why did she need to use one of her three favors here? If she knew he was going to be investigating it anyway then she could have just waited for him to come to her and used her favor for something else.

Mab played it well here.

Dresden was about to be voted out of the Council, and fed to the vampires. Mab pretty much saved his ass by giving him a way out. Had she not put the option there it wouldn't have been avaliable for Harry to save himself, or find out.

Kinda hungover.. so yeah not sure if that makes sense.

[Oz]

Jon, your sig is xbox hueg.

[Ceebee]

I believe Mab was more like "You will do this for me." As opposed to "you'll do it anyway." Also perhaps the idea that Dresden will be doing it on her behalf. Remember Summer & Winter pretty much have to be in balance. Summer had their emissary in Elaine, so Winter needed to have theirs in Harry.

I hadn't read Dresden Files when this topic was more active, but looking over, I recall in SK when Harry visits Aurora's court, she offers him something to drink/eat, and then clarifies it as mortal food, not Faerie, Implying that it was free of charge. Perhaps that might be why the lemonade is not a big deal.

[CheddarTrek]

Actually what Jon said sparked something that made sense -- When Harry's supporters on the WC were saying "WTF you can't seriously expect a young wizard like to be able to get in touch with Mab and ..." Harry: "Actually, yeah, she already contacted me. I got this."

If Mab hadn't already talked to him then Harry wouldn't have had that "She already talked to me about it" option.

But then again, he'd have agreed to do it anyway... but maybe Mab didn't know that.

CBs points also make some sense. The whole episode still seems iffy, but at least now it's not bothering me as if it were a major plot hole.

Thanks.

[CheddarTrek]

“I have to think that, Martin,” I said. “Besides, I think a parish
chapel with all three Swords defending it, along with two members
of the White Council and an elder sorceress of the Winter Sidhe,
will be a tough nut to crack. And all we have to do is make it until
dawn. Then we’re back in the jungle and gone.”Doing a re-read of Changes. The above is from the scene in St. Mary's before they head out to confront the Reds. Harry is talking to Martin.

Who is the second White Council member he's referring to? At this point he isn't expecting McCoy to show up. Last time he spoke with McCoy was when he was told to show up for a Grey Council meeting that he blew off.

Typo? For my count, it's Harry, Susan, Martin, Mouse, Thomas, Murphy, Lea, Molly, and Sanya going on this escapade.

Edit: Ah, he probably meant Molly. Though as an apprentice I'm pretty sure she doesn't count as a member yet. If that's all it was then sorry for the necro.

On another note, I had completely forgotten that Harry didn't just beat the WC to the punch and take out the Reds before the Merlin's plan could come into action, he saved their asses. The disease that Arianna had laced around the complex at Edinburgh had slipped my mind, a lot of them were down with it.

[azrael91]

I assume that was referring to Molly.