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Question about the AK

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by TehLicha, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. TehLicha

    TehLicha First Year

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    Not sure if this has been asked before, but I just did a quick search that revealed nothing. My main question is this:

    In a duel, why would anyone use anything other than an AK?

    The AK is pretty much the be-all, end-all of lethal spells. It's fast (relatively), pierces shields, instant kill. The only possible way to defend against it is to conjure something physical or dodge. But that's the way with practically every other spell, except for those spells, you can also use shields. And dodging/conjuring has to be incredibly fast = reflexes/cool mind/physical fitness != most wizards/witches.

    What is preventing all the Voldemorts that duel Harry from just going: AK - dodge - AK - dodge - AK until Harry dies? In fact, the only spell that I could see that is even close to the usefulness of the AK is the Blasting Hex, because at least that hits a massive area and makes dodging harder. Crucio? Who gives, if you could kill someone instead? And all those other fancy ones that fanfics invent? They don't bypass shields or instantly kill or whatever.

    I'm kinda just hard-pressed and strapped for ideas, because I can't justify Voldemort using anything other than AK and Apparation in a duel against Harry.

    And honestly, why don't all the DEs do it too? I know most of them loathe Harry, so why are they using stunners when they can just AK? And since the Ministry/Order is so high and mighty, what prevents the DEs from mowing them down by Apparating behind them and slaughtering them with AKs?
     
  2. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The only real answer, is an assumption, the assumption that using such a powerful spell would tire someone out fast.
     
  3. This Guy

    This Guy Squib

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    Makes the action more exciting, not practical, but throwing off AK after AK is rather bland IMO
     
  4. Gabrinth

    Gabrinth Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Doesn't World of Warcraft tell us that there is a five minute delay between all of the best spells?
     
  5. Nefar

    Nefar Seventh Year

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    BZZZT! In before Taure's (with a sigh) "I'm-too-tired-to-do-this-anymore-let-me-point-you-to-the-relevant-threads."

    OT, probably because it takes a degree of concentration hard to find in what is, after all, an extremely tense combat situation where the smallest slip could wind up with you Transfigured into a turtle or something. If we accept this theory as true, then an answer can be found in the Dumbledore-Voldemort Ministry duel. While Voldemort shot off an AK, Dumbledore used (what we're assuming is) less effort to animate the statues to block the curse. Critically, this took less concentration/effort, not less energy/mana/Force power. Thus, flinging AKs around while dueling might be an O.K. tactical move, especially when fighting with inexperienced duelers who would be quick to lose their nerve at the sight of the dreaded Killing Curse, it would be a very bad strategic move when dueling people of equal, greater, or slightly lesser skill who would not panic.

    In short, the AK is not used exclusively in duels because while it is a fearsome weapon, it takes a greater amount of concentration to cast and it is also counterable by opponents who keep their wits about them, opening the AK-caster up to a counterattack the using AK would mean they would be just the split-second to slow to counter.
     
  6. SunderBolt

    SunderBolt Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Now where would be the fun in that? I'm sure any self respecting wizard/witch

    would want to take a few chunks out of their enemy before finishing them of with a good old AK or a flashy Reducto.

    For the purposes of good fiction I would assume.
     
  7. TehLicha

    TehLicha First Year

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    @Nefar: So it's the immense amount of effort that hinders the AK? Hmmm... I was under the assumption that the AK only required hate and magical power to use. Alright thanks.
     
  8. Lyndon Eye

    Lyndon Eye Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Maybe strategically, it's easier to block and avoid than other spells? My impression is that it glows neon green and travels in slow-mo.

    It wouldn't be useful unless you've incapacitated your enemy (with other spells) first.

    Additionally, I'm sure most people just can't cast the spell at all.

    Besides, the purpose of most duels is to incapacitate rather than kill.
     
  9. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    The answer is that you don't ask that question.

    I'm not completely sure, but I believe that in the various Dark Magic/Unforgivable Curses-threads, we always had the problem that we didn't know how the Killing Curse worked in detail. (Note that Nefar started his explanation with 'probably', as would I, would I attempt to explain it)

    So it could work in whatever way you want, and that's the way you do it: you postulate something that makes it impossible or impractical to use it constantly, because it makes for the more exciting duel.
     
  10. Nefar

    Nefar Seventh Year

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    TehLicha^

    I see you missed the 'no magical power' reference. Anyways...

    Its not really that 'immense' effort is required for the AK, its more the fact that effort is required at all - for people like Voldemort, I doubt the effort is anything near hard. However, it is the fact that at least a trace of hate and/or anger is needed at all that is the issue here. The Shield Spell, or the animation spell Dumbledore used, does not (I can say nigh-assuredly) require an emotion to cast at all (besides the obvious desire to cast it, taken care of by the fact that you are casting it). The AK, however, does, and its that half-instant pause needed that puts you 'behind the times,' so to speak, in the duel.

    Think of it in math terms. The equation must be balanced, and that half-instant you take to prepare is one half-instant your opponent gets to calm down and analyze the situation. And that means very bad things for you.

    Lyndon Eye^

    Perhaps. I personally am against the 'slow spells = ballerina dodging' school of dueling thought, although I'm certainly biased by how many fics have Super!Asian!MartialArts!Harry (with Sensei!) utterly dominating by merely shifting his weight around. JKR's spells move according to the Law of Narrative Casuality, I think.

    Sesc^

    I'd consider the simplest explanation to be that it kills you, as in one minute alive, the next dead. It didn't leave any physical marks on the Riddles after all. But I realize it'll never be conclusively proven.
     
  11. Samuel Black

    Samuel Black Chief Warlock

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    I believe Sesc was referring about how we don't know the wand movements for it, how slow or fast it travels, etc, etc.

    In other words, reasons for why people don't use that spell and that spell only.
     
  12. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    :p Nefar: Yes, it would work that way, wouldn't it?

    I was talking about he various theories like "you need hate to cast it" or "it rips the soul from the body" or (more relevant, in this case) "you can't cast it constantly, because (inset reason)".

    So yeah, what SB wrote, too.
     
  13. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    "Avada Kedavra" takes longer than "Stupefy" to say (or think). So other spells are quicker. In a duel, a split-second advantage may be all your opponent needs to turn the duel in his favour. Moreover, a person will often have other aims than merely killing someone when fighting. Another reason may be that people are hesitant to use it due to its extreme illegality.
     
  14. Admonkeystrator

    Admonkeystrator Seventh Year

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    +1
    & like Bellatrix says. You have really mean it.
    For non!evils it takes too much time, and focus to cast, where as for the dark lord + eaters, it's mostly second nature.

    On the other hand, a happy-thought / focus spell, the patronus charm, is supposedly really really difficult, so a die-bitch thought spell, that you really really gotta mean, should take more power / time / focus to cast right?

    edit: Technomancer!Harry could tie in the AK, to an actual AK.
    When you absolutely, positively gotta kill every muthafucker in the room.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  15. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Yeah. That was exactly what I was talking about. You can make some points why the Killing Curse should work with hate, but nowhere in the books does it actually say that (IIRC -- what you think of with Bella is the Cruciatus, at least).


    The time it takes to say the words is a valid point, I guess; but the thing is, there are many spells almost as long, Impedimenta, for example; so it would apply there, too, and Harry uses it quite often.

    But as I said, you invent some reasons for why the Death Eaters (minus Bella, because she's just that lovably psychotic with the Cruciatus) aren't using Killing Curses all the time ... or perhaps they do, after all? I'm actually not sure, atm.

    For any normal wizard, I agree that the hesitation to use instant-kill spells is probably the main reason to not use it.
     
  16. Kthr

    Kthr Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Let us also remember that voldemort "rules by fear". It is said in cannon(i think) that people joined in fear of getting their families killed if they tried to stand up to him and for those people the threat of the killing curse would be enough to keep them in line. However, aurors(which would be the "only" fully trained resistance would fight for their believes and would gladly step into the path of that curse to achieve victory-that is, assuming they do not behave stupidly like the rest of wizarding england seems to-

    Anyway, the Knowledge that your enemy could rip off your skin, cutting your liver piece by piece, while slowly making you eat your own kidney-again, assuming that some magic would prevent you from dying while exponentially enhancing the pain- would damn well make sure fewer wizards stay on his path.

    Then again, maybe all wizards just enjoy showing off their nice raibow-colored-spells-of-doom to one another.
     
  17. Lucullus

    Lucullus High Inquisitor

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    The number of syllables in the vocalization of the AK curse is one weakness, like Taure has mentioned. For those of you who say other spells can have equally long incantations, I'd point out that the non-verbal casting of them would cut down on the delay between firing off such spells.

    It still isn't clear whether you can cast the AK non-verbally since almost every Death Eater and Voldemort himself verbalize the curse.

    Lastly, the spell can be shielded against, though only with a physical shield. Summoning debris to intercept the spell and conjuring a shield of say, stone, earth or even glass can shield one from the spell's lethal effects.

    If the AK is the be-all and end-all of dueling, Voldemort would have beaten Dumbledore easily enough in the DoM.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  18. RustyRed

    RustyRed High Inquisitor

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    I always kind of thought of the AK as a big, unwieldy sort of spell. Pretty much every time we've seen it used, there's like a build up of light, giving you plenty of time to realize you're about to die, before it's fired off. Maybe that's just dramatic effect, but I kind of agree that it must take a determined concentration to gather up the needed hate/ bloodlust/ what have you.

    As a result, if you're quick on your feet, it's not impossible to get out of the way of it, since it's not particularly quick or sneaky, and requires at least a bit of aiming on the part of the castor.

    Plus, I imagine a lot of people who end up as Death Eaters, specifically those who specialize in combat or torture, are partially in it for the destructive spells and finding new, creative ways to beat people up. Why go for boring old avada kedavra? There's no fun in that.
     
  19. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    This is always interesting to me. While there is no indication whatsoever that hate is a magical requirement of the Killing Curse, it could be argued that it's a causal requirement: to use the killing curse, you have to want to kill someone, otherwise you wouldn't be casting the spell. To want to kill someone, you have to have some measure of hate within you (this bit is more arguable).


    In the OotP duel Voldemort shoots off a green spell non-verbally. While it's possible that it wasn't the killing curse, but rather another green spell, I think it more likely he cast the Killing Curse non-verbally.
     
  20. Cosmo4

    Cosmo4 Third Year

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    From CH. 2 Spinners End, HBP

    Bella fires off a killing curse casually and silently.
     
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