I haven't read the books in a while and don't have enough free time to re-read all of them, so I have a question. Do the books ever explicitly say anything about how the Outsiders came to be in the outside? I remember something about the White God creating an army of archangels to go to war against them, but I'm not sure if that's dresdenverse-canon or Shezzaverse-canon.

If this was addressed in the books, sorry for the stupid question.

 

Noting was said as to how they were trapped in the outside iirc. Harry might have made a guess.

 

Dresden mentions them in book 7.

So far we don't really know much about them. We also don't know who it was that banished them. The god/Archangels thing is Shezzas invention, but it could turn out to be true. Or it could be faeries or ancient wizards, or maybe a collaboration of all the groups together against a common foe.

It should also be remembered that this is only the PoV of Harry, and given the obscure nature of Outsiders in the books so far, the information here may yet change. It seems likely that we will eventually learn up more about outsiders in later books. They may even end up being the major bad guys in the series in some way since Harry (the protagonist) is one of the very few people who can actually hurt them due to his "outsiderbane" status.

Oh, and it was mentioned by Butcher that Lovecrafts book might be somehow involved or describe the outsiders, though we don't have any details there either yet.

 

Paraphrasing what he's said in Q&A's and interviews, Lovecraft wrote the Necronomicon either under pressure from the White Council in the same manner as Bram Stoker did Dracula or wrote about Outsiders and was punished by the Council. I've seen both stories told so it's probably just Jim spreading a bit of misinformation to heighten the mystery. In the first instance the purpose of the book was to dilute all the rituals involving Outsiders so that they became all but useless, in the second it served the same purpose, but Lovecraft did it without Council authorisation.

 

I assumed that this was saying that Lovecraft's actual works (the call of Cthulhu, The Dunwich Horror, etc) were actually close to reality, like Bram Stoker's Dracula.

I also understood the Necronomicon that was spread around was the actual Necronomicon Lovecraft wrote about. Authored by the Mad arab Abdul Alhazred, the guy who got ripped to pieces by invisible monsters while walking through a Damascus marketplace.

 

I don't exactly where, but I remember Mab saying that the fey are where the outsider were, and that they will be again the dominating force in Fearies.

 

Err what ? She's never said anything about them that I can recall.

 

Mab never said that, though there was something like that (We rule now where they ruled once?) in...one of Lovecrafts books.

 

I'm pretty sure Water Mage isn't Jim Butcher.

 

You never know....

Eh, it fits and is less of a mouthful than "One who was born with power over Outsiders". It's a silly title, yes, but it does encapsulate what he is in a direct and succinct manner.

 

No, but if they started calling him "wgah'nagl-glw'nafh" or something, no one would have any idea what they were referring to. It's the same reason most authors will write in English (or whatever their primary language is), when the characters are supposedly speaking Japanese or Spanish or whatever. You have to give the reader some kind of point of reference or you may as well just throw random letters on the page.


And on a side note, when did an Outsider ever call him an Outsiderbane? I've seen it in a fic once, but I don't think we've ever seen interaction with an Outsider anywhere in canon.

 

That's the source of the Aurora quote in AS. Since there's a good chance the Old Ones in the Dresden Files are Lovecraftian based, I played around a bit with the mythos to fit within the story.

From my understanding Outsider-bane isn't anywhere in canon. People just use it since saying wielding power over Outsiders is too long, and Harry's the hero so hopefully he'll use that power to lay the smackdown.

Here's what I know.

We've met only one Outsider and that's He Who Walks Behind who Harry has seen twice so far. First when Harry made a deal with Lea when he was 16 for power to defeat him, and we briefly saw him again in BR before the summoning ritual was disturbed. He was pretty pissed though. He's what Bob calls a Walker and according to him they aren't killable. Maybe that's what they're really called instead of Outsiders.

Michael went against some at the end of PG when he and the Wardens showed up during Molly's trial. So his sword seems to be powerful enough to stand against them.

Annnnd I think that's really all we know, right? I don't think Butcher's gone into their banishment or anything that resembles an origin.

 

Oh my God you are right! Sorry, it get so confusing after a time I didn't realise it was fanon instead of canon... My apologies.

PS: I know, I failed here...

 

Yep. I think it is a term first coined in Butchers forums. I think it might come from the whole faery/iron thing. They call iron "bane" and it is especially harmfull to them. So Harry is outsiderbane because he is especially harmfull to outsiders. But yeah, its totally unofficial term. Butcher has not told us a real name for people like Harry, if such a term even exists.

It should be mentioned that Lea mainly gave Harry confidence in his own abilities from the deal. Most of the power/skill to defeat HWWB came from Harry himself and not Lea.

There are some interesting quotes:

This suggests that HWWB is a knight or an enforcer and a highranking one. However I get the feeling that not all outsiders are walkers. They might just be a subset similar to how trolls are part of the faeries but not all faeries are trolls.

In this case Madge is summoning HWWB back into the world from outside. It is interesting that she seems to be calling to someone called "Lord of Slowest Terror" and asking it to send its "right arm" and "captain of destruction" to the world. And this turns out to be HWWB. So basically this suggests that Lord of Slowest Terror is somekind of even more powerfull boss-outsider who HWWB serves.

This is where Bob says that Walkers cannot normally be killed but just banished away. It is interesting however that Bob does not mention that HWWB is an outsider. It is possible that he thinks Harry knows it and does not think it worth mentioning, or perhaps Bob himself does not know. Though in this case we would have to take all his knowledge about HWWB with skepticism.


Finally it should be mentioned that Butcher has both confirmed the existence of outsiderbanes (Though he did not call them that ofcourse) so we know its not a trick of Lash's, and he has also said that Elaine is one too which is why DuMorne had her and Harry both as apprentices.

Well, Michael can apparently kill major Dragons with a capital D with the sword, and the outsiders that attacked the wardens were probably what might be called lesser outsiders and nowhere near the power of HWWB.

It is also possible that outsiders are vulnerable to faith-based powers similar to black court vampires. And potentially physical damage too.

The only thing we know of for sure is that outsiders are normally almost immune to magic. Only Harry's magic or that of another outsiderbane is capable of affecting them fully.

There was a theory in Butchers forums that outsiders might have a sort of magic resistance that blocks 99% of all incoming energy, so if you throw a ball of fire at them only 1% of the heat gets through. And that Harry could ignore this magical resistance. And ofcourse in case of Michael, even 1% of the swords energy might be enough considering the immense power behind it.

 

Yeah, it's from the JB forums. Also, from some stray comments by the beta's, all being one does is keep Outsiders from ignoring him utterly (ie, his attacks can hurt them, and his magic affect them, but that's it.)

Yeah. The thing about Lea is that Harry's mom could have probably gotten a better deal with her (meaning she would have helped Harry for free), but people were trying to kill her en masse, soooo...

It's worth mentioning that, if we are using feudal titles for the Outsiders? Yeah...the title of 'Knight' is just about the lowest. Above normal commoners, though, so yeah.

According to the RPG, HWWB is the Lord of Slowest Terror.

Then again, Bob has limits to what he's allowed to know. He literally can't know about Faith, pehaps the Outside is the same.

He's also said there are others.

The thing about the Swords is that they ignore Supernatural Durability and Defenses. Meaning that Dragons (who generally laugh at swords), can be caught with there pants down. Probably the same for Outsiders.

Doubt that; at least on of the (hundreds of?) wizards attack muct have tried something like that. Also, HWWB is literally a gas (with spikes), so I don't really see physical objects doing much.

Yeah.

Maybe, but more likely that the Swords ignore that, too (since that's what they do).

 

We don't actually know the full extent of what Harry can do against outsiders, its all speculation. The beta's likely don't know any more than we do at this point. They have some chapters of the next book already to be sure, but it seems unlikely that we would learn the full extent of Harry's powers there so until the books/Butcher says otherwise, everything is still educated guesses, including the comments from the betas.

That being said, it does seem highly likely that part of Harry's power is the ability to ignore the outsider magic immunity. It has been said in the books that the outsiders are nearly immune to magic, but also that Harry used magic to kill HWWB, while Eb's (who is much more powerfull/skilled) magic had trouble with lesser outsiders and needed Michael to save him. The conclusion there is obvious.

However for all we know Harry may have other powers too. He might for instance be able to summon more powerfull outsiders than other wizards can. He might also be able to bind and control them, forcing them to do his bidding. He might also be somehow resistant himself to outsider attacks so that a blow from an outsider that would kill a normal person only wounds Harry. Perhaps he might be able to sense their presence if they are around, or eventually feel it when one enters the world. It has been suggested that the Gatekeeper might be an outsiderbane from a previous generation.

Thats all speculation ofcourse, but the complete truth is known only to Butcher at this point. But the point above is that there could be a lot more to the whole outsiderbane thing that we don't know yet. Heck its actually been suggested that maybe Harry himself IS part-outsider and that the "inner-harry" is a manifestation of this. Lots of crazy and fun theories on Butchers forums.

Generally its believed that Harry screwed up here due to his ignorance. The deal Lea had with his mother would have forced her to help Harry for free if he had only asked for help. Unfortunately Harry did not know this so he made a deal he did not need to make.

We see this in Changes for instance, when we learn that Lea has been protection Harry's apartment from NN without asking anything from Harry since the price was already paid by his mother.

On the other hand the "knights" of the cross are major badasses. And the "knights" of the sidhe courts carry with them immense power. I don't think we can really gauge anything from this.

Yeah, but that really seems to me to contradict what it says in the book. In the book it clearly is calling for LoST to send "YOUR captain" and "YOUR right arm". And then HWWB arrives. That to me suggests clearly that HWWB is separate. And the book beats rpg when it comes to canon.

Remember that the RPG is still in beta (I think?) and was not written by Butcher himself. He could easily have missed this detail when he proofread it. I wonder if this is something that should be brought to his attention and asked about.

The RPG is interesting and has clues, but it perhaps should not be taken as gospel. For example someone in Butchers forums mentioned that the designer had said that we should not try to figure out power-levels between entities in the actual books from the rpg. They are not accurate.

Maybe. Normal demons when killed also get banished to NN. Bob may have simply thought that HWWB and others of its type are just powerfull demons. Bob knows lots and never forgets, but unlike the Archive he actually needs to LEARN things for himself first. Information does not just appear in his head.

Lash too says there are other walkers, but HWWB is apparently the most powerfull of them. Or did you mean other outsiderbanes? Yes. Infact there must be others since if there were not, Harry's mother would have had no clue how to arrange things so that Harry would become one.

Like I said earlier, many thing the Gatekeeper might be one too.

Quite possibly.

Umm what? Tried physical attacks like shooting or throwing objects at them you mean?

Yeah I expect outsiders are generally as tough as most other supernatural beasties so just shooting them with your average gun would not seriously harm them. Obiviously if you could kill one just by shooting them in the head, they would not be feared enough to warrant a unique law of magic. I figure to take down one with mundane attacks would require something tanks and rocket launchers and other really heavy arsenal.

Thats probably what makes them so scary. If they are extremely resistant to both vanilla physical attacks AND supernatural magical attacks. And if they don't have any unique weaknesses like silver/iron/faith then they are nearly invulnerable.

If some random warlock set one loose in the middle of New York then the results would be pretty catastrophic when neither the Wardens nor the mortal authorities could bring it down. And ofcourse a larger invasion of them to the world would be even worse. One could almost say it would be apocalyptic.

 

The outsiders are the servants of the Old Ones, and a boat propeller took down Cthulhu, something a Nuclear Bomb and the species that created humanity couldn't do.