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Jon
07-24-2011, 06:24 PM
My favourite, definitely has to be;

She put her cup of hot chocolate to her lips and just held it there, trails of steam curling up around her blue eyes. “So. You’ve finally been inside me. I feel like I should be offering you a cigarette.”

I giggled RL. :awesome

And of course..

Be.

Shinysavage
07-24-2011, 06:27 PM
I've lent my copy to my dad, so don't have the exact quote, but I loved the call back of Paranoid? Maybe. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't a dead wizard with tears in his eyes.

Vesvius
07-24-2011, 06:35 PM
I liked

"What could happen in one hour?"

And that's how I knew Mort was telling the whole truth when he said he wasn't a hero.

Heroes know better then to hand the universe lines like that.

I lol'd. Hardcore.

Scipio
07-24-2011, 06:37 PM
"There are no words. It was like The Lord of the Rings and All My Children made a baby with the Macho Man Randy Savage and a Whac-A-Mole machine"
-Bob

Mishie
07-24-2011, 10:52 PM
Two of my favorite quotes would have to be:
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are"
Uriel
and
"I will be the Winter Knight. I will be the most terrifying Knight the Sidhe Courts have ever known. I will send your enemies down in defeat and make your power grow. But I do it my way. On my terms. When you give me the task, I'll decide how it gets done - and you'll stay out of the way and let me work. And that's how it's going to be."
Harry

Celestin
07-25-2011, 01:44 AM
Epic one:
Be.

And funny one:
“You have your mother’s Sight, you know.”
“Not her eyes?”

Calz
07-25-2011, 02:24 AM
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are"
Uriel


I was going to do this line, but I bolded the part that's the problem. Goes to something me and Tehan were talking about earlier that I brought to him. I'm personally doubt its Uriel that said that. With the description given in the text:

a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”

Tehan's point of the word 'gentle' in there sort of not being like the others in terms of it being Uriel was a good one.
Personally, I think its Lash.

Phantom of the Library
07-25-2011, 02:42 AM
“The final truth,” Lea said. She suddenly looked very tired. “Your killer was but the proxy of another being, and one mightier and more dangerous than he.”

In hindsight, this is probably one of my favorite lines in the book. :awesome

Alratan
07-25-2011, 06:25 PM
The problem with "Be" is that the conclusion to that is Harry accomplishing absolutely nothing and going down like a bitch. He'd have been better off if he'd stayed incorporeal.

Celestin
07-25-2011, 06:29 PM
The problem with "Be" is that the conclusion to that is Harry accomplishing absolutely nothing and going down like a bitch. He'd have been better off if he'd stayed incorporeal.

He saved Morty who saved Molly. How is that nothing?

Shinysavage
07-25-2011, 06:35 PM
Again, don't have the exact quote to hand, but I rather liked Who just smashed your face? Harry fucking Dresden, that's who!

Alratan
07-25-2011, 06:36 PM
He saved Morty who saved Molly. How is that nothing?

He could have gone incorporeal afterwards, and he's seen lots of ghosts to poltergeist stuff that must be less challenging than manifesting a whole body.

Joe
07-25-2011, 07:04 PM
He could have gone incorporeal afterwards, and he's seen lots of ghosts to poltergeist stuff that must be less challenging than manifesting a whole body.

You sound like one of those ff.net reviewers that want the writer to twist the story toward their personal preference. "Greatz story, but Draco shud really hav fucked Harry in a moonlit hollow on Halloween, coz he's upset about hiz paraents."

Well, maybe not quite so bad. I'd have to do a read again, but could a poltergeist have the will/reasoning/ability to free Mort? Aren't they, for the most part, batshit insane? And not the good kind of insane.

Aekiel
07-25-2011, 08:17 PM
He could have gone incorporeal afterwards, and he's seen lots of ghosts to poltergeist stuff that must be less challenging than manifesting a whole body.

Only crazy powerful ghosts can affect the real world, which Harry wasn't at that point. He knew he could manifest in the real world and that he could somewhat stand a chance against Corpsetaker with his friends on the way down. Kinda. Especially once the ward stones were down.

Avitus
07-25-2011, 09:11 PM
No no no. You're all wrong. Best line in the book: "I know you are, but what am I?"

I may have died. And then laughed hard.

Brown
07-26-2011, 09:53 PM
Not a spoken line, but when Harry possessed Molly and created a wall of real fire, and the thug walked in because he thought it was another illusion...
Hilarious.

"You're dead, son. Cheer is contraindicated."

"Put that phone down or you don't get a tip."

"You never realised how long a shadow you cast."

Nae'blis
07-27-2011, 12:37 AM
The most awesome dialogues in the book were the ending conversation between Harry and Mab. And this line was the most badass of 'em all:

And do you know what that will give you, my queen?”
Her eyes burned. “What?”
I felt my own smile widen. “A mediocre knight,” I said.
“And mediocrity, my queen, is a terrible, terrible fate.”

Fuck Yeah.

Edit: 200th post. :awesome

KillerEggLord
07-27-2011, 01:31 AM
Only crazy powerful ghosts can affect the real world, which Harry wasn't at that point.

No. Only crazy ghosts can affect the real world, it isn't so much a matter of power as insanity (forcing the world to be something it shouldn't), though I doubt wraiths (or other impersonal ghosts) could pull it off as they lack the personality necessary for the crazy.

Put it another way, the Corpsetaker didn't eat the murder ghosts for their power, he ate them for their crazy.

Jon
07-27-2011, 05:10 AM
^

Harry didn't need any extra crazy.

Be.

Aekiel
07-27-2011, 09:44 AM
He still expended some power to cross over to the physical world; enough to basically take him out of the fight in any meaningful context.

KaiDASH
07-27-2011, 11:02 AM
Yes, he used energy to become corporeal, but the qualifier of 'has energy' is a distinct second to 'has sufficient crazy'.

Seeing as Harry was extremely weakened when he became corporeal, while Corpsetaker had energy in spades before absorbing the other ghosts, 'has energy' is clearly something of little to no importance compared to 'has crazy'.

(note: Energy is a catch-all term for whatever you want to call the magical gas tank)

Aekiel
07-27-2011, 11:05 AM
Yes, he used energy to become corporeal, but the qualifier of 'has energy' is a distinct second to 'has sufficient crazy'.

Seeing as Harry was extremely weakened when he became corporeal, while Corpsetaker had energy in spades before absorbing the other ghosts, 'has energy' is clearly something of little to no importance compared to 'has crazy'.

(note: Energy is a catch-all term for whatever you want to call the magical gas tank)

Good point, I'll cede this one.

Anya
07-27-2011, 06:05 PM
“I will be the Winter Knight,” I told her. “I will be the most terrifying Knight the Sidhe Courts have ever known. I will send your enemies down in defeat and make your power grow.”
-
“Chicago. It’s insane and violent and corrupt and vital and artistic and noble and cruel and wonderful. It’s full of greed and hope and hate and desire and excitement and pain and happiness. The air sings with screams and laughter, with sirens, with angry shouts, with gunshots, with music. It’s an impossible city, at war with itself, every horrible and wonderful thing blending together to create something terrifying and lovely and utterly unique.”

Klael
07-27-2011, 08:00 PM
That Chicago quote was BEAUTIFUL. Couldn't stop a tear from rolling down my cheek at that one, being from Chicago.

Does anyone else think that maybe Harry just loved being corporeal so much that he didn't want to go back to being a ghost? He spends the entire book being fairly well cut off from everyone around him, barely able to communicate let along have physical contact with any living being. He's frustrated and anxious about being unable to help his friends. All of a sudden, he crazies himself into reality, and now he can do all that! If it were me, I'd stay as corporeal as humanly possible. Is that a pun?

I don't have the book in front of me, but if I did I'd paste the entire Harry-Mouse-Maggie scene in there. That was very nice.

KillerEggLord
07-27-2011, 08:04 PM
Seeing as Harry was extremely weakened when he became corporeal, while Corpsetaker had energy in spades before absorbing the other ghosts, 'has energy' is clearly something of little to no importance compared to 'has crazy'.


I think the Energy part actually has to do with the method Harry used to become corporeal, as Jon points out, Harry became corporeal by taping into his magic to work a crazy spell, which seems to be a different method from how the normal crazy ghosts do it. And we already know that ghostly spells expend power, I.E. they make Harry go see through.

The murder ghosts don't seem to loose power when they shift back and forth into crazy forms that can affect people.

Taure
07-27-2011, 08:45 PM
Molly set the beer down on the shelf by the door and blinked at Morgan. “You’re right,” she said to me. “He is kind of a drama queen. Who said anything about magic?”

She pulled one arm into her T-shirt, and wriggled around a little. A few seconds later, she was tugging her bra out of the arm hole of her shirt. She dropped it on the shelf, picked up the bottle, and held it against each breast in turn.

Then she turned to face me, took a deep breath, and arched her back a little. The tips of her breasts pressed quite noticeably against the rather strained fabric of her shirt.

“What do you think?” she asked, giving me a wicked smile.


Am I doing it right?

Blazzano
07-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Though they don't count as "lines," I have to say that I was amused reading about the origins of Harry's "flickum bicus" and "fuego" incantations. 6th period Spanish class FTW.

Cyclops
07-28-2011, 03:54 AM
“You’re one hell of a woman, Molly,”

Anya
07-28-2011, 04:26 AM
“You’re one hell of a woman, Molly,”

So she started crying when he said that because he said it when he was asking her to erase his memory?

TheWiseTomato
07-28-2011, 05:36 AM
'And I broke into a flat out sprint towards the machine guns.'

“I will be the Winter Knight,” I told her. “I will be the most terrifying Knight the Sidhe Courts have ever known. I will send your enemies down in defeat and make your power grow.”

"Be."

I know the second two have already been stated numerous times, but they bear repeating.

DemonicInfluence
07-28-2011, 10:22 AM
“You’re one hell of a woman, Molly,”

Ya this. I felt it was really strong even without realizing the reveal about its involvement in his death.

StakesIsHigh
07-28-2011, 10:31 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed many of the lines mentioned previously.

However reading back I loved Harry's conversation with Uriel before the scene with Mab/Demonreach.

Especially: “You haven’t done any fortunecookie whispers into my head, have you?”

“No,” he said. “Not yet.”

Zerg_Lurker
07-29-2011, 06:41 AM
"And I also knew that what I had just done had insulted him.

And . . . and frightened him."

Harry scares an archangel?

Fucking Names, man. :awesome

Brown
07-30-2011, 01:14 AM
Wait.

Uriel was angry/frightened when Harry removed the 'el' from his name, the part that means 'from God' and even the Fallen still have. Harry nicknamed the shadow of Lasciel 'Lash'. She is no longer of God. Free will? Did Harry create a real personality out of the imprint of a fallen angel on his brain? That's a weird kind of narcissism.

Klael
07-30-2011, 01:21 AM
Did Harry create a real personality out of the imprint of a fallen angel on his brain? That's a weird kind of narcissism.

Personally, and this is without knowing if Butcher clarified this or anything, I think it makes the most sense that the shadow of Lasciel had to have some amount of independent free will of Lasciel or else it wouldn't know what to do in the first place, and all that happened is that Harry's subconscious talked it into changing its mind. I'm pretty sure that's cogent with the story.

Agayek
07-30-2011, 01:32 AM
Personally, and this is without knowing if Butcher clarified this or anything, I think it makes the most sense that the shadow of Lasciel had to have some amount of independent free will of Lasciel or else it wouldn't know what to do in the first place, and all that happened is that Harry's subconscious talked it into changing its mind. I'm pretty sure that's cogent with the story.

Brown has a good point though, potentially. It would certainly explain why Uriel was so disturbed by Dresden shortening his name. If Dresden has power over Outsiders, it's not terribly implausible that some circumstance surrounding him has given him some level of influence over "Insiders", for lack of a better word.

I could see the use of the name Lash actually having an effect on the shade. There's really no way to tell though. All we know for sure is that she changed. There's no info on why.

Klael
07-30-2011, 01:36 AM
I could see the use of the name Lash actually having an effect on the shade. There's really no way to tell though. All we know for sure is that she changed. There's no info on why.
It's definitely implied, though.

I think that removing the -el from Uriel's name is individualizing the angel, and it's that individualization that creates a sense of self independent of either God or his fellow angels. He's terrified by that because for him to be anything other than that part of a greater whole is to put his will before that of God, and that's the first step towards damnation and heresy.

Tehan
07-30-2011, 11:17 AM
Harry's got a history of giving things names and then having them veer wildly off the expected path. Bob, Lash, Ivy, Mouse... no wonder Uri freaked when he found himself in the crosshairs.

LittleChicago
07-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Could it be that Naming something ties back to Harry's power over Outsiders?

This is a bit of a stretch, but during the fight with HWWB, as soon as Harry says, "I know you are but what am I?" everybody's favourite uber-demon pauses. And never even tries to touch Harry again. Instead, it ducks off and slices Stan in three, then gets blown up.

Admittedly, this isn't really a Naming, as such, but HWWB had just called Harry, "Pathetic... Whimpering, mewling thing. Useless." And Harry turned it back on him. Then it didn't (or couldn't) hurt him again.

Klael
07-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I don't really like that idea so much, it just seems so out there, and yet the more you guys come up with supporting facts the more it seems like something like that is true....

Taure
07-30-2011, 02:31 PM
I think you've blown this so called "power over Outsiders" thing out of proportion.

IIRC, Harry doesn't have any special power over Outsiders. What he has is the ability to even touch them at all. That is to say, they're not immune to his powers. That doesn't mean that he has this big advantage over them. He still has to best them. It just means that the chance of winning isn't 0.

Scrittore
07-30-2011, 02:39 PM
"Boobs are near the center of the universe until you turn 25. Which is also when young men insurance rates go down. This is not a coincidence."

Mordecai
07-31-2011, 04:40 AM
There were just so many good lines through the novel, I can in no way choose any to quote here. Brilliantly writing as always!

Agayek
07-31-2011, 04:46 AM
Could it be that Naming something ties back to Harry's power over Outsiders?

This is a bit of a stretch, but during the fight with HWWB, as soon as Harry says, "I know you are but what am I?" everybody's favourite uber-demon pauses. And never even tries to touch Harry again. Instead, it ducks off and slices Stan in three, then gets blown up.

Admittedly, this isn't really a Naming, as such, but HWWB had just called Harry, "Pathetic... Whimpering, mewling thing. Useless." And Harry turned it back on him. Then it didn't (or couldn't) hurt him again.


This seems a rather big stretch, but I will be the first to admit it has some logical basis.

The concept here just seems way too far out there to be a reasonable thing. I mean all he'd have to do is call someone powerless and he can stomp all over them, and that just doesn't strike me as the kind of plot device Butcher would use.

It's definitely plausible, and I can't think of anything that contradicts it, but it doesn't seem very likely.

TheWiseTomato
07-31-2011, 05:29 AM
If Dresden can gain power over another by 'Naming' them, it doesn't seem like it'd be anything quite so blunt. Maybe by Naming someone, he is exerting subconscious influence over them to bring them more in line with his moral worldview?

Jon
07-31-2011, 05:36 AM
The reason why Dresden didn't get assraped by HWWB is because he didn't want to kill Dresden, he wanted him to get into the mindset of combat.

Tehan
07-31-2011, 06:01 AM
I don't think it's so much power over them as it somehow grants them self-determination. Lash, Bob, Mouse, and Ivy all charted new courses for themselves after they got their name, but they all chose their own destinations. (and I've got a theory that Mouse is actually the spirit that interbred with the Foo Dog line those monks maintain that popped in in puppy form to try to protect his/her descendents and then decided to stick around after they were rescued, but that's a whole other story)

But you might be onto something. He's used naming offensively. Shagnasty and the Ick leap to mind.

Mordecai
07-31-2011, 07:00 AM
I think you guys are maybe taking this Naming thing a bit far. From my perspective its not an overwhelmingly powerful thing, like you seem to be making it out to be. Maybe the fact that when he gives things a unique name (shortening an existing one, or just going with something more situational) he in someway limits its power over him rather than gaining power over them. I hope thats how it works anyway, cause if it starts to go the way of Naming in the Kingkiller Chronicles then it'll just be too powerful when combined with his already existing powers.

LittleChicago
07-31-2011, 10:58 AM
Like I said: stretch.

I'm going to have to go over all of Dresden's previous fights. If he only starts kicking ass after throwing out a snarky nickname, then we'll have an answer.

We do know that names are powerful, as demonstrated with the skinwalker, and reinforced by Uriel. I doubt it's a matter of just tossing out a nickname makes Dresden invincible...

And yes, HWWB wasn't trying to kill him. He was pushing Harry, trying to change him, and according to the line in SK, capture him. At that point, DuMorne didn't want him dead, just angry and confused; maybe getting him confused helped with the entrallment spell.

I'd love to see the actual fight between Dresden and DuMorne, with Lea on the sidelines...

The Fine Balance
07-31-2011, 11:46 AM
Seems unlikely for a number of reasons, already mentioned by others, but also because knowing a Name means not only knowing the name itself, but also inflection and assorted complications. Considering that Harry did not know the Name of most of the critters mentioned as evidence for the theory, it's highly implausible that he had the power to shorten or change them. For Ivy and Lash, the course they charted and the change the act of renaming them seemingly beget, can be explained psychologically: I remember this scene where Luccio talks about the history of the The Archive and why Dresden shouldn't get too close to her - well, he did, and that might have changed her, but it wasn't wrought by the magic of naming her Ivy. Ditto, Lash: as a Fallen, I'm sure she was used to a certain kind of response from the people she inhabited that Harry did not exhibit. Also, remember that the duration of her stay in his head - and his resistance - was something even Michael considered remarkable.

On topic, my favorite line has to be:

She put her cup of hot chocolate to her lips and just held it there, trails of steam curling up around her blue eyes. “So. You’ve finally been inside me. I feel like I should be offering you a cigarette.”

I love that whole damn chapter. And pretty much all scenes with Molly, and yes, even the Star Trek thingy, although why she's reconstruct the 60's one and not the one that played through the 90's, I can't really explain.

Also, considering I'm rereading some books:


"No," she said. "I didn't. But I found that I…" She rolled her shoulders in a shrug. "That I enjoyed being Shiela. That I enjoyed interacting with you as one person to another. Without being regarded with fear and suspicion. I know that you understand what it is like. You've felt it often enough in your own life."

The Berkeley Hunt
08-02-2011, 12:26 PM
Naming stuff: Has Butcher been reading Name of the Wind?

Lines: During the Evil Bob fight: "Maybe you could clarify what you mean by a relationship. Because I gotta tell you, Bob, I've, uh...I've been hurt"

And immediately after, "I have a strict rule about dating older men."

Garlak
08-03-2011, 03:25 AM
Hm. When I read "Be." I scratched my head and thought "Ehh, wouldn't 'I am' be a better fit and more dramatic? 'Be' 'fits' just as much I think, but 'I am' is somewhat more dramatic/appropriate I think?"

Did anyone else feel that way? That is; they would have prefered "I am" instead of "Be"?

Tehan
08-03-2011, 03:34 AM
'I Am' is internal. 'Be' is external. He's imposing his will upon the world, not himself.

Taure
08-03-2011, 06:12 AM
I AM would have also had religious connotations that would be misleading. Unless Dresden is going to turn into the White God at some point.

LittleChicago
08-03-2011, 10:45 AM
I AM would have also had religious connotations that would be misleading. Unless Dresden is going to turn into the White God at some point.

Christ, I hope not.

Taure
08-03-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm now cringing at some final scene involving Harry meeting God and it turns out to be Jim Butcher who then has a conversation with Harry, author to character.

LittleChicago
08-03-2011, 11:10 AM
Fantastic Four did it a few years back, when they met Jack Kirby in Heaven.

As long as Butcher doesn't pull a King and write himself into the story at all, I think it'll be okay.

TheWiseTomato
08-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Hm. When I read "Be." I scratched my head and thought "Ehh, wouldn't 'I am' be a better fit and more dramatic? 'Be' 'fits' just as much I think, but 'I am' is somewhat more dramatic/appropriate I think?"

Did anyone else feel that way? That is; they would have prefered "I am" instead of "Be"?

I think 'Be' fits much better than 'I am', although that could just be because I'm a bit of an Eddings fan. Feels more definite.

Celestin
08-03-2011, 11:24 AM
Fantastic Four did it a few years back, when they met Jack Kirby in Heaven.

As long as Butcher doesn't pull a King and write himself into the story at all, I think it'll be okay.

And before that Grant Morrison did it in his run on Animal Man and it was brilliant, but this was in story about fictional character learning he's fictional and meeting his god (writer). Pulling this in DF would be weird considering its current themes.

Also, didn't Joe do this at the end of The Hero Trilogy? I think I remember fic where something like that happened after story having nothing to do with this kind of twist.

Blazzano
08-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Joe probably got the idea from Stephen King, from whom he was borrowing quite a bit in those days. :awesome

The Fine Balance
08-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Joe probably got the idea from Stephen King, from whom he was borrowing quite a bit in those days. :awesome

Oh, elucidate? (My Stephan King is pretty limited.)

Joe
08-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Joe probably got the idea from Stephen King, from whom he was borrowing quite a bit in those days. :awesome

Heh - yeah. The Hero Trilogy was fun, but it was written before DLP's kind and caring influence steered me right.

All of my fiction, fanfic or otherwise, has benefited from this site.

Blazzano
08-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Oh, elucidate? (My Stephan King is pretty limited.)

Well, it's been long enough since I read the Hero trilogy that I can't really give many specific examples, but suffice it to say that Joe borrowed broadly from SK's Dark Tower series in particular. In some cases it was the way he arranged his narrative, in some cases it was specific turns of phrase, in some cases it was bits of characterization, and in some cases it was general concepts for a scene, or maybe symbols and themes. Wastelands also has a bit of Dark Tower feel to it, albeit far more subtle.

I don't mean to say that these things soured my enjoyment of the series as I was reading it. The trilogy remains a fun and epic ride, but a lot of the references did make me chuckle. They were obvious.

Red PittBull
08-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Like I said: stretch.

I'm going to have to go over all of Dresden's previous fights. If he only starts kicking ass after throwing out a snarky nickname, then we'll have an answer.

We do know that names are powerful, as demonstrated with the skinwalker, and reinforced by Uriel. I doubt it's a matter of just tossing out a nickname makes Dresden invincible...

And yes, HWWB wasn't trying to kill him. He was pushing Harry, trying to change him, and according to the line in SK, capture him. At that point, DuMorne didn't want him dead, just angry and confused; maybe getting him confused helped with the entrallment spell.

I'd love to see the actual fight between Dresden and DuMorne, with Lea on the sidelines...

The fight with "Shagnasty" seems to stand out. Something could be said about the power of naming given that conversation with Luccio after Ivy gets taken by the Denarians.

But I do think that's too big of a stretch. It's much more likely applicable to beings without freewill. The Archive, who wasn't a person, was given a Name (capital N) thus allowing her to gain mortal freewill. Making her efficiently more human. Now that scared the hell out of the Senior Council all because she has so much knowledge. Knowledge=power and so on.

When he named the shadow of Lasciel "lash" the less dramatic effect was that it changed her into something not what she was. Sacrificing herself, a quote of "she doesn't deserve you" springs to mind. So just by giving her the name he allowed her to make a choice to separate herself from the one trapped in the coin. (Though to be honest I think the whole idea is much more fanon romance than anything.) This was less of a huge effect because she was in his head and while she had a lot of knowledge couldn't really act on the world.

Now imagine if a being like Uriel had freewill? He could directly act upon the world with tremendous power. Look at what he did through cats paws? He can't do much but given free will to wield his power? It'd be incredible. No wonder it scared him so much. It's a similar situation as Gandalf and the one Ring.

There's probably holes in my theories. Feel free to point them out.

Aekiel
08-03-2011, 03:21 PM
The fight with "Shagnasty" seems to stand out. Something could be said about the power of naming given that conversation with Luccio after Ivy gets taken by the Denarians.

But I do think that's too big of a stretch. It's much more likely applicable to beings without freewill. The Archive, who wasn't a person, was given a Name (capital N) thus allowing her to gain mortal freewill. Making her efficiently more human. Now that scared the hell out of the Senior Council all because she has so much knowledge. Knowledge=power and so on.

Ivy has always been mortal and always had free will. It's the Archive that does not, and Ivy cannot use the Archive without first bending to its limitations. The Senior Council were annoyed with Harry because the more humanity the Archive's host retains the more likely they are to go insane from the thousands of years worth of memories they have stored in their head.

When he named the shadow of Lasciel "lash" the less dramatic effect was that it changed her into something not what she was. Sacrificing herself, a quote of "she doesn't deserve you" springs to mind. So just by giving her the name he allowed her to make a choice to separate herself from the one trapped in the coin. (Though to be honest I think the whole idea is much more fanon romance than anything.) This was less of a huge effect because she was in his head and while she had a lot of knowledge couldn't really act on the world.

My personal theory is that Cassius' death curse was the thing to redeem Lash, or at least a part of it. Having her own name couldn't have hurt, since it drove a wedge between her and Lasciel.

Now imagine if a being like Uriel had freewill? He could directly act upon the world with tremendous power. Look at what he did through cats paws? He can't do much but given free will to wield his power? It'd be incredible. No wonder it scared him so much. It's a similar situation as Gandalf and the one Ring.

There's probably holes in my theories. Feel free to point them out.

I've mentioned it on the JB forums, but my take on this is that giving Uriel a nickname like Uri would divest him of being God's agent and insert doubt into his life. He's an eternal being (if the White God is actually God) and has been God's agent for all of that time. He does not experience doubt in doing His work and is always certain that his course of action is the right one... So imagine what having all of that taken away would feel like.

Red PittBull
08-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Ivy has always been mortal and always had free will. It's the Archive that does not, and Ivy cannot use the Archive without first bending to its limitations. The Senior Council were annoyed with Harry because the more humanity the Archive's host retains the more likely they are to go insane from the thousands of years worth of memories they have stored in their head.

Yes, but what I'm saying is the significance of her becoming more than just the Archive, was started by being Named. I was using that more as an example of the point however. Surely the guy who made it foresaw such a thing and that's why Ivy has the limits she does.



My personal theory is that Cassius' death curse was the thing to redeem Lash, or at least a part of it. Having her own name couldn't have hurt, since it drove a wedge between her and Lasciel.

I think I know where you're going with this, please elaborate.



I've mentioned it on the JB forums, but my take on this is that giving Uriel a nickname like Uri would divest him of being God's agent and insert doubt into his life. He's an eternal being (if the White God is actually God) and has been God's agent for all of that time. He does not experience doubt in doing His work and is always certain that his course of action is the right one... So imagine what having all of that taken away would feel like.


True. Another thing to note is the two similar beings Dresden has named (angels of one sort of a another) all he's done is dropped the 'iel' from it. This obviously worked to some degree on Lash, because she changed Harry, and as Harry changed she did as well. Notably, Uriel has been dicking around in Harry's life a lot here lately. Soulfire, appearing to him, giving advice, allowing him to run around as just his soul and go back to his body, and so on. So certainly he's changed Harry. And if Harry names him without the significance of the 'iel' which somehow encompasses all the things you said in the quote above (Uriel mentioned this himself actually), Harry could change him. Not even on purpose. To a being who's been the same for, you know, eternity, that's gotta be fucking scary.

Aekiel
08-03-2011, 05:00 PM
I think I know where you're going with this, please elaborate.

I posted this here a while back, but here's a summary.

Cassius' death curse wasn't for Harry to Die Alone in the straight forward sense. It was to make sure Harry didn't die with a Fallen Angel in his head. This is mostly because Cassius himself was obsessed with the Fallen (having been a Denarian for fuck knows how long and is now feeling the effects of it), so when it becomes apparent that he is going to die, he casts his death curse to separate Harry and Lash. Of course he's not powerful enough to do it outright, so he uses a bit of neuromancy to prompt Harry to take actions that would get rid of the Fallen (and possibly do the same for Lash).

Evidence for this includes Cassius' personality (as noted) and Harry's all but immobile, burned, gloved hand reaching out and snatching a Denarius from mid-air without Harry even knowing it was there. People have suggested it could be Uriel interfering, but I see this as a much more elegant solution since Uriel had already acted pretty damn overtly by giving Harry soulfire.

Aside from that, there's also the fact that Harry didn't really Die Alone, except in the physical sense. He was just getting ready to fuck Murphy for Christ's sake!

TheWiseTomato
08-03-2011, 05:57 PM
Evidence for this includes Cassius' personality (as noted) and Harry's all but immobile, burned, gloved hand reaching out and snatching a Denarius from mid-air without Harry even knowing it was there. People have suggested it could be Uriel interfering, but I see this as a much more elegant solution since Uriel had already acted pretty damn overtly by giving Harry soulfire.



Didn't Uriel imply pretty heavily that that was him too though? In his Jake persona, he showed Dresden a book and it had a line in it about acting through a (damaged?) left hand.

And I thought the Soulfire was pretty overt because Lucifer had been kinda overt by blowing up Marcone's safehouse with hellfire.

Agayek
08-03-2011, 06:07 PM
Didn't Uriel imply pretty heavily that that was him too though? In his Jake persona, he showed Dresden a book and it had a line in it about acting through a (damaged?) left hand.

And I thought the Soulfire was pretty overt because Lucifer had been kinda overt by blowing up Marcone's safehouse with hellfire.

All Uriel's book (The Two Towers, specifically) was to give the line "The burned hand teaches best", which is an old saying with the basic meaning of "you can only learn through experience." Essentially, Dresden was awarded with Soulfire because he was able to resist the temptation presented by the coin and the power therein.

There was no implication, one way or the other, that Uriel had anything to do with Dresden catching that coin. I'm actually with Aekiel on this one. It was most likely Cassius' death curse.

Aekiel
08-03-2011, 06:10 PM
Didn't Uriel imply pretty heavily that that was him too though? In his Jake persona, he showed Dresden a book and it had a line in it about acting through a (damaged?) left hand.

And I thought the Soulfire was pretty overt because Lucifer had been kinda overt by blowing up Marcone's safehouse with hellfire.

It was Tolkien's The Two Towers and the highlighted line was "The burnt hand teaches best". That seems less like him taking credit for the coin and more saying that the things Harry goes through teach him about himself/God, or indeed, teach him to be stronger from it.