Eh, I'm still not getting all the 'onoes Christianity' angst. Sure, Uriel is powerful. So is Mab. So are Mother Winter and Mother Summer. They're embodiments of primal forces of nature; not just hot/cold, but the seasons which are determined by gravity. So yeah, I have no problem with them being powerful. The Darkhallow was supposed to put a normal human in the realm of demigods by eating ghosts, so of course the White God and Archangels, who are all soul, and have the faith of billions on this planet in this reality alone, are going to be ridiculously powerful. I see nothing about it being a Creator God. We haven't even seen him/her/it.

We all knew Murphy could be bitchy from the first two books. How is it at all surprising that she's having a hard time coping with losing Harry (possibly by her lover) and then losing her job and watching the city she's sworn to protect descend into chaos. So much so that she's forced to work with Marcone, a man she would like nothing more than to see rot in prison, the White Court, and a bunch of civilians. Yeah, I think Murphy was handled just fine.

And finally, what plot holes?

 

There was a minor plothole with the timing of Harry running away from Justin, defeating HWWB, and then killing Justin, but it really is minor.

 

There are other cosmic level beings out there, such as the Dragons, which controlled parts of the entire universe at one point. So it's not as though angels are all powerful, especially given how they're not allowed to let loose. There's a direct correlation between amount of power a being has and how many restrictions they have on how to use that power.

Do you know what the similarity is between SF/FM and Ghost Story is? Murphy doesn't have her best friend. Of course she's going to regress to what she was before Harry, because that's the only way she knows how to live without him. Jesus, think from the character's perspective for a minute before you jump on these things.

Somewhat agreed. The editing was pretty shitty in places, and the last line being wrong sucks massive balls, but I did find myself getting immersed in it.

Uh, what? Apart from the one T3t mentioned I'm not remembering any plot holes right now.

 

There are a lot of little things that can be viewed as either uncharacteristically contrived story telling or really minor plotholes. I've already tried futilely (twice) to write out all the ones I've got off the top of my head (as I don't have my book with me at the moment) but both times I ended up losing what I'd wrote. I'm starting to think that my main problem with the book is that I'm expecting something better from Butcher after the last few books and didn't get it - making all the little flaws stand out more.

On the Christianity issue: I'm not saying that It's fully jumped the gun to "Left Behind" level shit, but I'm just commenting on what I see as it moving down a slippery slope. I might be wrong - hell I hope I am - but it wasn't really a major reason for my dislike of the book. The same goes for Murphy: Yes, I get it, it makes sense for her character. Other possible developments in her characterization could have made the same amount of sense, however, and the fact that he decided to go with this one was a a decision I'm not a fan of.

I'll re-read it when I get my book back, and when comes out on paperback (and is re-edited) and maybe my opinion will change, but until then, I'd put it as one of my least-favorite Dresden books. It's still in my top ten books I've read recently, but by Butcher's usual standards, it seems rather poor.

 

I personally didn't notice many errors but I was racing through anyway. I went back and saw the final line and all I can say is...lulz.

TBH I think Butcher's pumping them out so fast it's difficult for the editors to keep up. And it can only get worse if he somehow manages to do two books a year like some people are claiming.Dude needs a hobby.

Also, did anyone else notice that Mab's talking again? I guess that now she has her Knight she's planning on doing some real ass-whooping, that's enough to cheer anyone up.

And she's going to be even worse now that she knows just what the hell is out there and how outgunned she is.

 

Butcher should recruit DLP WBA to help edit. We'd sort that shit out for a low, low rate.

Sol: the problem isn't that Christianity is included. It's that the mythical elements of Christianity are given primacy. You've got all the rest of the supernatural on one level, and Christianity (or at least, Abrahamic religion) above it all.

 

Foreshadowing for Molly.

 

Hey, it's my first Internet Fight with Taure.

I don't think the Christian elements are on a higher level, they're just receiving more focus this book: much like we had more sidhe focus in Summer Knight and more necromantic focus in Dead Beat. It was one of the White God's fallen servants who messed with Harry, so it was one of the White God's angels who had to set thing rights - or at least balance them. Similar to Winter always acting against Summer (though I'm sure Forthill would phrase it differently).

There is as yet no reason in the Dresdenverse to think that Christianity is any true-er than another religion, is what I'm saying. And I'm pretty sure that's where Harry still stands. He might accept that he is a soul - having been only a soul for a while - but that doesn't mean he's going to accept Jesus as his rightful divine king.

On a side note, at first in GS I thought the fomor were being set up as the enemy for Cold Days and onward - but they seemed kind of incompetent. I guess that shifting from a little fish to a big fish requires some growing pains, but still.

 

If the White God is "the Creator" (which it looks like he is) then Mab, Titania, the Dragons, the Fallen, the Archangels, the Mothers, the Outsiders, the Demon Gods, the vampires... all of these beings were brought into existence by the White God.

Hell, even if he isn't the big-C Creator, he's still responsible for the creation of all of the angels and archangels, including the Fallen. Given that a single Archangel is as powerful as any other single being in the universe, and that regular angels are no slouch either, the Almighty is still so powerful that he puts all other beings to shame.

 

Well, in Dresden, did the White God create everything or just the 'real' universe? If He's just the creator of our little obscure corner of the Never-Never, then He's probably on the same level as the Sidhe Mothers and the Dragons, but He'd be an especially heavy-hitter in the stories because it's almost always on His turf.

 

I would quite enjoy a quasi-pantheistic Creator White God: supremely powerful, but all of his power is locked up in maintaining the existence of the universe, so that his will can only be enacted through his servants.

This seems to me to be a good way to have a Creator God in the story but for it to not be completely broken.

 

So what happens after the apocalypse frees up a significant portion of His power?

 

If the Bible is to be believed, an eternity of unending paradise.

 

ಠ_ಠ

I mean in the Dresden Files, you twat. An eternity of paradise doesn't provide enough grist for three post-apocalyptic books.

 

Why post? I thought that trilogy is going to be about Apocalypse in itself, not what happened after that.

 

It's also not clear whether or not it's the Apocalypse or a apocalypse.

The first is the true end of the world. The second is just a really bad thing happening - so bad that it's worthy of being described as apocalyptic. One example: Nicodemus' plan falls into the latter case. It seems to me that the only type of apocalypse that allows there to be a post-apocalyptic world would be the second type.

 

...huh. I suppose WoG does say that, but I interpreted it as post-apocalyptic for some reason. Though I do think that going the Book of Revelation route for it would be just as bad.

 

So far, there has been no canonical reference to the White God being the creator. Mab certainly shows him no deference. Taure might be on to something: I think he's maybe, at best, the 'local' creator.

When Bob was talking about the naagloshii, he talked about Navajo creation myths as though they were real, and we've seen an aspect of the Norse Worldtree, so we know that in the Dresdenverse, all creation myths have the same weight.

If the 'creation' of Earth was a group effort by various deities, and devine beings wax and wane in power based on how much support they get from mortal belief and faith, it would make sense that the old gods are still around and weakened, as Changes told us, and the Abraham's Big G would be dominant right now, since about half the world's population is singing in the choir.

This allows room for 'God' to be the most powerful god, while not being truly 'above' the others.

 

Seems to me that this doesn't mean all myths have the same weight - just that all myths have some kind of supernatural instantiation. Which isn't quite the same thing as being equally true. Or even equally powerful.

Also, I still don't buy the whole notion that supernatural beings' power rests on faith/belief of humans. I think it applies to some beings, yes. Specifically, the Old Gods. But how many people have faith in or believe in dragons or faeries? Not many. But those two sets of beings are among the most powerful in the Dresdenverse. It seems to be that there are many different types of supernatural beings, and the faith-based ones are just one among them.

 

It may not be faith as much as knowledge. The more people know about the being the more powerful they are. This seems to be supported by Backup where the whole point was to eradicate all knowledge of certain beings regardless of how many people would worship them today. And I think it's said there that the same cannot be done to the faeries because of people like the Grimm brothers.

And the power they get may not be magical power per se, a la American Gods, but more the power to affect the human world. When that crazy naid/nympho or what ever the fuck she was was trying to restore Dionysus she never said that he was weakened or powerless, just that he was "gone' iirc.

According to Butcher (or according to people who follow WoG) the White God does not need human worship, which caused the whole problem in the first place. Now iirc what he may have said was that the WG predates humanity, which may be easier to reconcile with your theory.