PDA

View Full Version : Turncoat - Discussion Thread [Epic Spoilers]


Jon
04-07-2009, 11:59 AM
DEMONREACH!

It was PEABODY! By the ISLAND!

With MADELINE and BINDER!

Who Is pretty cool.

Madeline, word, just word.

Lara is such an awesome bitch.

So much to gush about so little time.

Vesvius
04-07-2009, 04:18 PM
Alright, some thoughts.

Turn Coat was much, much more awesome then I thought it would be. I didn't have high hopes after the sample chapters, but it turned into one of the better books in the series.

Though Peabody? With mind control ink? Seems weak to me, even with the small amount of foreshadowing that Butcher used early on in the book (Peabody getting Eb to sign some stuff). It would have been better if it was revealed in a way other then "YOU DID IT WITH THE INKWELL!".

Morgan was suitably epic.

I'm dissapointed about Luccio, but not really sad. We've known her since Dead Beat, but she was only really a major character in Small Favor, if that. Maybe Harry will eventually get a non vampire, non mindwarped girl. Sadly it looks like it'll be Molly or Murphy. Probably Murphy. Though for some reason I keep thinking Harry/Ivy would be epic.

Demonreach was pretty cool, and I can't wait for more to come with it.

Out of all the people intro'd in this book, it seems like the Lawyer and the P.I. will be sticking around for a while. Harry never really gazes someone who's not important and the P.I. has a main character vibe.

Now one of the major questions this book left for me. With Thomas gone off the deep end and Morgan dead, who wields the swords? Thomas will probably get the love one (can't spell it off the top of my head) in a book or two, but the faith one is still up for grabs.

Another one is what will happen with Harry and Lara? She knows he's not protected now and seems intrested in riding him like a pony.

Oh, and last thing. Grey Council? Honestly?

IvanJoiderpus
04-07-2009, 07:40 PM
Last 50 pages just disappointed me, wasn't as epic as i'd hoped.

So that's it, Thomas just got tortured into insanity and now he's Angel off his meds and pigs blood. sad.

Also, skinwalker not getting killed with fire, major FAIL.

Soulfire is bullshit, did not accomplish anything in the book "the silver white streamers of soul fire danced and glittered around my right hand" suck my soulfire enhanced cock.

body of book 5/5

everything after chapter 48 is fail

Samuel Black
04-07-2009, 08:42 PM
Holy fucking shit.

Had to get that off my chest. Book was epic. Few things.

The Skinwalker. Fucking hell. I was hoping Butcher would exceed my expectations, and he did. It was ridiculously strong, and I found the backstory behind it and it's kind relatively interesting. It's still alive, so maybe we'll see a round two in a few books?

The Senior Council, or more specifically Injun-Joe and the Merlin. It was great to see one of the senior council finally cut loose. It's one thing to hear about how powerful and epic they are in a fight, and it's another to actually see it.

I've always liked the Merlin, surprisingly, and it was pretty cool to see some interaction between him and Dresden.

I'm disappointed about what happened to Thomas, but it's understandable. Hopefully, he gets his shit together soon and starts helping Harry again.

I really expected someone to pick up a sword in this book. Sanya has got to be getting overworked as the only Knight. I'm gonna go ahead and say that someone will be getting a sword in the next book.

I liked Murphy a helluva lot more in this book then I did in the last one.

Morgan was all kinds of epic, which was awesome. Sucks, since the Council lost a major hitter, but it was kind of inevitable.

Demonreach was interesting.

Soul fire kind of disappointed me, as did the lack of Lash, but I wasn't surprised. Last time Harry did a major working with soulfire, he lost the use of his hand for a while. It was pretty cool seeing him work smaller, more controlled spells with it, though.

I'm gonna go ahead and give this a 4/5. It was great, but not perfect. The pacing started out quick, and it maintained it's speed throughout the whole book. Great book.

I loved the exchanges between Morgan and Harry, particularly the one where Morgan tells Harry how he killed a skinwalker. With a nuke.

All kinds of awesome.

kmfrank
04-07-2009, 08:52 PM
Yeah, epic book is fucking epic.

I agree that soulfire could potentially be cool later; it was kinda lackluster here, as it was exhausted in the cockfight with Demonreach. I think Demonreach is going to be hella important for the rest of the series. Like when Harry holes up there forever or something.

Learned some great shit about magic in this book - I need to revise my own Dresden fic Winter Wizard, incorporating some of the stuff about the Ways, though I think it can still be salvaged pretty well.

Skinwalker was good, I thought - I had expected shittiness from the preview chapter, but was pleasantly surprised.

I'm smelling Thomas angst, though...its approaching like someone who stepped in shit. I don't think it'll be terrible. Angsty!Vampire sells, after all, so I guess I can't expect a total absence of it...

Injun Joe was a total badass - I knew shapeshifting had awesome possibilities and I'd introduced it in my own fic, again, but it definitely has me excited.

McCoy and the rest of the council really let loose some EPIC fucking magic, and made it clear why Harry's an infant playing in the Major Leagues, when it comes to them.

Also, the Edinburgh hidey-hole was pretty sweet.



Harry/Luccio is dead...

<.<

>.>

Long live HARRY/MOLLY!!!

uriel
04-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Long live HARRY/MOLLY!!!

I honestly couldn't tell if Butcher was setting up Dresden to NEVER be with Molly, or creating a situation so there COULD be something with Molly in the future.

I mean he like talked about her perfect breasts, protruding nipples, and taut ass for about 50 pages in that one scene with the investigator.

Then there's Murphy.. thought there would be some kind of hooking up at the end there, but it never happened.

Ragon
04-07-2009, 09:27 PM
HOLY FUCK!!! havent finished it but so far its fuckin awesome.

I will bet money that Dresden was born on Demonreach. The way Gatekeeper was acting and talking about it just screams something important about Harry and Demonreach. The ley line would be would possible explaination for why Harry is so fuckin strong too.

Cruentus
04-07-2009, 09:54 PM
Soul Fire is more of an enhancer then sheer power, in fact that's why I like it over Hellfire, It stated in the book in fact that Harry wouldn't have even tried to bond with the island if he hadn't had it.

Hellfire is interesting, but there just seems to be so much more you can do with Soul Fire.

This book was all about the set up, which means the next book is probably going to be fucking epic, and we all know that when Lash comes back it'll be Harry duel wielding Soul/Hell fire.

On an interesting note there was more sexual situations in this book then in all the others.

Taure
04-07-2009, 10:01 PM
Pretty good read. Lots of answers, lots of new questions. Didn't like the Skinwalker. Yes, Butcher beefed it up, power wise, but all the way through the book I had this feeling that it was kinda artificial: it had no right being so powerful, it should have been weaker.

Don't know why that is. Maybe because I have no interest in Native American mythology, maybe because I feel like most of the power players have been already established and you can't just keep adding new ones ad hoc.

Anyway, let's see if we can keep track of all the questions/plot threads we have running.

What is the composition and aims of the Black Council?

Why/how can Harry hurt Outsiders? What is special about Harry?

What's special about Demonreach?

What's wrong with Mab?

What happened to Lash?

White Council/Red Court war.

Thomas.

Who gets the swords?

When will we see Molly naked again?

Harry's possible apprenticeship to Injun Joe.

Harry's mother and what she was up to.

Who is the other traitor that was at Demonreach?

When is Susan going to return, if ever?

What's heaven's interest in Harry?

Creation and running of the Grey council.

Kalas
04-07-2009, 10:50 PM
Anyway, let's see if we can keep track of all the questions/plot threads we have running.

What is the composition and aims of the Black Council?

Anarchy, new world order, social Darwinism etc. I truly hope I'm wrong and Butcher pulls out something epic but I'll probably be quoting this in a couple of years.

Why/how can Harry hurt Outsiders? What is special about Harry?

What's special about Demonreach?

Going with Demonreach's true purpose and Harry 'taking up that mantle' I'd say these two are related. Might be how the Gatekeeper got his gatekeeping powers. Ripping them form Demonwatch.

Thomas.

We get a better exploration of his character then the 'Just say no to drugs' vibe he's been giving. I'm happy about it.

When will we see Molly naked again?

Soon.

Harry's possible apprenticeship to Injun Joe.

Should be epic. Though more survivor's guilt seminars then magic lessons.

Harry's mother and what she was up to.

Fucking Xanatos. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)

Who is the other traitor that was at Demonreach?

Cowl/Crazy!Merlin/DemonPossesed!Merlin/Simon

When is Susan going to return, if ever?

Next book I believe.

What's heaven's interest in Harry?

Preventing the Black Concil's coming apocolypse.

Creation and running of the Grey council.

Small club I'd imagine. Mainly focused on following the leads made by Madaline's cellphone and eroding the new Senrio Council member's power base.

kmfrank
04-07-2009, 10:55 PM
Going with Demonreach's true purpose and Harry 'taking up that mantle' I'd say these two are related. Might be how the Gatekeeper got his gatekeeping powers. Ripping them form Demonwatch.


Between the 'taking up the mantle' and the 'you might have a chance to write in these books some time, boy'...

Was I the only one who thought McCoy was culling Harry to be the next Blackstaff?

Kinda seemed to me what the books would be about - every Blackstaff passes the collection down.

Just my idea.

Ragon
04-07-2009, 10:56 PM
"If he'd been accused of lopping off the heads of baby bunny rabbits because someone accused them of being warlocks, I could buy that."

Funniest line I have read in a long time. I busted out laughing and still laugh when I think about it.

Samuel Black
04-07-2009, 10:58 PM
I'm kind of disappointed with that whole Grey council thing. At first, I thought it said that the Merlin had told Ebenezer to form it. Couple that with Eb's line about 'If we're brought into the open, the White Council will execute us', and I pictured a mini-army of wizards authorized to do whatever they hell they needed to. With the Blackstaff at the head, who knows? Violating the laws of magic was a certainty, I thought.

Turns out I just misread a line from Harry when he said something to the effects of 'the merlin's denial of the black council necessitates our creation'.

Dammit.

Taure
04-07-2009, 11:00 PM
The Dresden Files = Blackstaff Harry Dresden's journals?

That said, I'm not sure that Harry is quite the right person to be Blackstaff. To be Blackstaff you have to be able to break the laws of magic (i.e. use black magic) without falling to it.

Harry would struggle with that, IMO.

Edit: Also Demonreach = hellmouth?

Ragon
04-07-2009, 11:23 PM
@Taure:

I wouldnt be suprised if McCoy learned the lessons that he taught Harry the hard way, just like Harry did. Like Uriel told Harry "The burned hand teachs best."

Finally finished it and have to say it is without doubt the best of Butcher's work. While soul fire disappoints a bit, it is still early for Harry to have really learned how to use it all that well. We also finally got to see the Senior Council in action and they did not disappoint.

Cruentus
04-07-2009, 11:26 PM
I don't see why a bunch of you want to see Harry cut lose with dark magic...I mean you do realize that doing so would completely erase a core part of Harry's character, and thus he would no longer be Harry.

You also have to realize that Harry's over all mission is to prevent mankind from being over run by evil and darkness...it kinda defeats the purpose if he started using the stuff he's trying to stop, kinda like the Thousand Sons space marine legion practicing magic even though they know all magic flows from the bad guy.

Ragon
04-08-2009, 01:03 AM
I don't see why a bunch of you want to see Harry cut lose with dark magic...I mean you do realize that doing so would completely erase a core part of Harry's character, and thus he would no longer be Harry.

You also have to realize that Harry's over all mission is to prevent mankind from being over run by evil and darkness...it kinda defeats the purpose if he started using the stuff he's trying to stop, kinda like the Thousand Sons space marine legion practicing magic even though they know all magic flows from the bad guy.

Who is saying they want him to use dark magic?

JohnThePyro
04-08-2009, 01:34 AM
I'm kind of disappointed with that whole Grey council thing. At first, I thought it said that the Merlin had told Ebenezer to form it. Couple that with Eb's line about 'If we're brought into the open, the White Council will execute us', and I pictured a mini-army of wizards authorized to do whatever they hell they needed to. With the Blackstaff at the head, who knows? Violating the laws of magic was a certainty, I thought.

Turns out I just misread a line from Harry when he said something to the effects of 'the merlin's denial of the black council necessitates our creation'.

Dammit.


Didn't read resulting replies to this, so I may just be repeating what someone else said. If so-My bad.

Anyway, Reading what Eb had to say, I think it's quite possible that Eb is the leader of the Black Council. Read how he talks, and look at how Harry has always acted. "A moment of slipping can cause your fall" ect ect. What's a bigger slip than going from White to Grey?

It sounds to me that Eb is creating a possible "transitional period" for Harry to get used to working outside the strict laws of the White Council. Then slowly moving him to work in the Black Councils interests. It's obvious that Harry is a key player, he may be required for whatever the Black Council wants to do.


That said-Demonreach was undoubtably the best part of the book for me. Harry gains a new power, a possible safe base of operations, and it opens up a whole new large question. Absolutely fucking epic.

Ragon
04-08-2009, 02:26 AM
If Eb leads the Black Council then the White Council is totally fucked.

White Rabbit
04-08-2009, 05:16 AM
“This is Waldo Butters,” I said. “And his geek penis is longer and harder than all of ours put together.”

Lol

I kind of want to see Harry move out to the island and create his own little fortress of Solitude. A place to recoup and head back out.

I expected Demonreach to do something other than give Harry 'Intellectus'. Like uppercut something/someone while rising out of the ground.

Cristo's = Cowl?

Ragon
04-08-2009, 06:01 AM
Lol

I kind of want to see Harry move out to the island and create his own little fortress of Solitude. A place to recoup and head back out.

I expected Demonreach to do something other than give Harry 'Intellectus'. Like uppercut something/someone while rising out of the ground.

Cristo's = Cowl?

Doubt it. I may be imagining this but doesnt it say in one of the books that dark magic leaves a taint or scent to those who know it? If so theres no way in hell someone like Cowl could possibly hide from the Senior Council. I bet he has a minion or two in the Council but not Cowl himself.

Narf
04-08-2009, 06:07 AM
The best Dresden Files yet, no doubt.

Fuck the haters, Soulfire > Hellfire. :|

Jon
04-08-2009, 06:13 AM
Hellfire is brute force.

Soulfire is skill.

If Dresden fucked up with Hellfire worst he could do was overkill something

If he fucks up with Soulfire he's gone, period.

Taure
04-08-2009, 07:55 AM
If Eb leads the Black Council would that make the Black Council legitimate under his role as Blackstaff?

Blackvoice
04-08-2009, 08:52 AM
I tried to imagine second-guessing myself on everything I’d done for the past eight years.
I wouldn’t be one of those guys for the world.

Was this foreshadowing the size of a brick or am I just crazy?

Grey Council? I guess lame jokes have long lives.

Well, I liked the book quite a bit, and loved Toot. I can't say much more, because I read it so fast I haven't finished digesting it yet.

Vesvius
04-08-2009, 08:54 AM
Oh, yeah. I completly forgot about that when I was writing my thoughts. Toot was great in this.

Oh, and as I reread, I'm getting more and more sure it's going to wind up Harry/Molly.

Ragon
04-08-2009, 09:31 AM
Personally I want Harry/Elaine.

Taure
04-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Oh, and as I reread, I'm getting more and more sure it's going to wind up Harry/Molly.

I wish, but I think not. She's too young. Dresden wouldn't go there, and if he can resist the temptation of Lara, he can resist the temptation of Molly. Though Molly > Lara.

Big D on a Diet
04-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Overrated book is overrated. Not bad, just not as epic as all of you are describing. Bottom of the top five maybe, if only for the answers we were given, and the glimpse we got at the White Council inner workings, but certainly not the best in the series.

One thing has been bothering me about the series lately. Jim Butcher is 37 years old, and he seems intent on making Dresden roughly the same physical age. The books and short stories recently have been filled with references to Dresden that seem to refer to him as a man entering the beginning of middle-age, which doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone who could potentially live to be three hundred years old or more. My personal theory is that, with the way wizards age, Harry's physical age should be closer to mid 20s, and that Butcher is projecting too much of himself on his character.

I also thought it was odd that he kept referring to Murphy as looking like "someone's favorite aunt". It just doesn't seem like the way you talk about someone if you're setting up a romantic relationship, which he frankly came closer to with their goodbye scene than he has in any book so far. A lotta kissing and saying of I-love-yous there for someone who looks like your mother's sister.

And speaking of mothers, does anyone else think that "Maggie" is about to become someone who no one has talked about for years, but everyone suddenly knows? We've always known that she was important to Harry's eventual destiny, but it feels like her part in it should be more of a secret than it apparently is.

Thomas going off the wagon is a good thing. Ever since he broke with the White Court he's become more and more Harry's little sidekick, and the character has become stagnant. I thought that Butcher would shake it up by giving him one of the Swords, and he still might, but this brush with the dark side might be just what Thomas needs to become relevant again.

Peabody as the villain was kind of fail, and more than a little obvious once he was introduced, but I'm honestly not sure who would've been better. The Black Council has been built up as so powerful and scary that I don't know who could actually live up to it.

Ragon
04-08-2009, 12:01 PM
I bet everyone of any importance in the Council knows exactly who Dresden's mom is but only a few namely the top wardens, Senior Council, and maybe some of the more powerful and influential people know what she did.

As for the Black Council seeming so all powerful, sure they seem that way compared with Harry and Carlos. But after seeming Injun Joe drive off a thing that Morgan had to lure to a nuke test to kill; Im not really all that worried as long as the entire council doesnt turn Black.

Taure
04-08-2009, 12:03 PM
The Black Council's strength lies not only in their magical strength but also in their method of warfare.

kmfrank
04-08-2009, 01:31 PM
As for the Black Council seeming so all powerful, sure they seem that way compared with Harry and Carlos. But after seeming Injun Joe drive off a thing that Morgan had to lure to a nuke test to kill; Im not really all that worried as long as the entire council doesnt turn Black.

I see Injun Joe as one of the next Senior Council members on a stretcher; he's gotten way more screen time, and is up for more, if Dresden takes him up on the grief counseling/wtfpwn Shapeshifting.

Also, anyone else think Molly should spend a vacation on the farm with Eb while Harry's away being all tribal-emo?

Also in regards to Molly, Creeper!Morgan was hilarious.

Cruentus
04-08-2009, 01:31 PM
One thing has been bothering me about the series lately. Jim Butcher is 37 years old, and he seems intent on making Dresden roughly the same physical age. The books and short stories recently have been filled with references to Dresden that seem to refer to him as a man entering the beginning of middle-age, which doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone who could potentially live to be three hundred years old or more. My personal theory is that, with the way wizards age, Harry's physical age should be closer to mid 20s, and that Butcher is projecting too much of himself on his character.

The way I took it is that it's not a natural aging process, but one that is enhanced via channeling magic all the time, so instead of aging like a hobbit for example, they would age like a normal human, but just keep going where other humans would have died off.

I also thought it was odd that he kept referring to Murphy as looking like "someone's favorite aunt". It just doesn't seem like the way you talk about someone if you're setting up a romantic relationship, which he frankly came closer to with their goodbye scene than he has in any book so far. A lotta kissing and saying of I-love-yous there for someone who looks like your mother's sister.

There is are many different kinds of love besides romantic. I think this was meant to show just how deep their friendship has become, after all Harry and Murphy have lived through a lot of interesting times, and that tends to forge friendships like no other.

And speaking of mothers, does anyone else think that "Maggie" is about to become someone who no one has talked about for years, but everyone suddenly knows? We've always known that she was important to Harry's eventual destiny, but it feels like her part in it should be more of a secret than it apparently is.

You have to put it in perspective, all these people are telling him these things about his mom now because their starting to get to know him, up till now the only friendly person who could have told him anything that he knew at the start of the book was Eb, why Eb never said anything I don't know.

Peabody as the villain was kind of fail, and more than a little obvious once he was introduced, but I'm honestly not sure who would've been better. The Black Council has been built up as so powerful and scary that I don't know who could actually live up to it.

Who would have been in a more perfect spot to influence all the leading heads of the White Council? He was in the right place to be useful as a spy and manipulator, he was in charge of all the paper work after all, and by the end of the book he had the entire compound wrapped around his finger.

Your just disappointed that it wasn't some uber powerful Black Council member that would pwen everybody then get his ass kicked and disappear not to be seen for two or three books.

Instead it was your average spy using his brain to fight, where he lacked in sheer strength he made up for in being a sneaky bastard.

Taure
04-08-2009, 09:42 PM
Interesting idea I just saw on the Butcher forums: what if Dresden's mum was the one to start (or at least plant the seed of) the Black Council, in her campaign to change the White Council and the way it does business?

Vir
04-08-2009, 10:21 PM
What if she's not dead?!?!

Vesvius
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
What if she's Cowl?!?!

Ryuugi Shi
04-09-2009, 01:21 AM
What if she's not dead?!?!

Since she used a death curse (which Jim confirmed), and death curses leave their user's dead, that's unlikely. Also, while Harry's mom sound's impressive, the member's of the Black Council seem to make her look like a school girl.

Montclair
04-09-2009, 02:08 AM
Since she used a death curse (which Jim confirmed), and death curses leave their user's dead, that's unlikely. Also, while Harry's mom sound's impressive, the member's of the Black Council seem to make her look like a school girl.

True. Also in Fool Moon, Demon Chauncy talks about Maggie's death.


Chauncy regarded me without expression or emotion. "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end."

"Of course, if you would like to forfeit another name, to know all about your mother's past, her …" his voice twisted with distaste, "redemption, and the unnatural deaths of both mother and father, I am certain we can work something out."


Black Council wanted to overthrow the WC for a long time. It seems that they put a lot of ground work before actively working towards that goal. In TC, Luccio said that Maggie loved pointing out grey area's of magic and wanted to reform the Council. She had great many contacts with Fey and other factions, even Nicodemus knew her. Its possible that Maggie started the whole BC thing or atleast involved with them at one point.

At some point she got enslaved by Raith and I think during that time she recognised her mistake. She escaped later and met Harry's Father on the run. I think Malcom Dresden was the one who changed her views about the world. She fell in love, got married. During her second pregnancy she knew that her end was near, so she planned accordingly - such as timing Harry's birth so that he'll have power over Outsiders, his and Thomas soul gaze message etc. Maybe Harry's whole life revolves around the consequences of her redemption.

Ragon
04-09-2009, 05:44 AM
Is there anyone she didnt meet during those years where she disappeared from the Council's rader? Fae, Raith, didnt she meet Nic too?

The Fine Balance
04-09-2009, 02:56 PM
The books and short stories recently have been filled with references to Dresden that seem to refer to him as a man entering the beginning of middle-age, which doesn't really make a lot of sense for someone who could potentially live to be three hundred years old or more.

Yeah, this has bothered me as well, although I'd not really made the connection to his age. My pet theory had been that Harry, unlike most of the wizards his age, has seen a Lot of wear and tear over the years. And while Wizards regenerate perfectly eventually, in the meanwhile that hurt accumulates, ensuring that he feels older and more worn down than he otherwise should.

I'm pretty sure that anything with Murphy was shot down a couple of books ago.

We've always known that she was important to Harry's eventual destiny, but it feels like her part in it should be more of a secret than it apparently is. A renegade Warden? Why exactly would she be a secret... especially from the big hitters whom Harry meets all the time?

Big D on a Diet
04-09-2009, 05:20 PM
I thought about the wear and tear thing, but the argument still holds. He's not being portrayed as a guy who's been beaten up a million times and is worn out, he being portrayed as someone who's getting older. The differences are subtle, but they're there.

And what I meant by his mother being a "secret", is that we've all been hanging around Dresden for a while now, and we've never gotten any straight answers about his mom, and I'm just dreading the moment where, once some of her past has been revealed, we find out that tons of people already knew about it, and Harry was the only one really in the dark.

Something about that idea just pisses me off.

Samuel Black
04-09-2009, 05:44 PM
I thought about the wear and tear thing, but the argument still holds. He's not being portrayed as a guy who's been beaten up a million times and is worn out, he being portrayed as someone who's getting older. The differences are subtle, but they're there.

He's being portrayed as a guy getting older, because, well, he's getting older. His body may be able to keep living until age 300 or whatever it is, but mentally, he's still 40 years old or whatever. He's had all that stress, and all of those fights with huge odds stacked against him. In my opinion, he's just mentally fucking worn out.

A couple examples. My grandpa, fought in WWII, lots of stress in his life from supporting his parents, blah blah, has an almost perfect body health-wise. Yet, he's tired all the time, he doesn't run, hardly ever does anything physically exerting. He just says he feels old.

Grandma, on the other hand, doesn't. She's the same age, but she grew up in a relatively comfy life, hasn't had a lot of stress, and she's very active. She gets up at like six every morning, swims a lot, and is always bustling around.

Not the best examples, but you get the point. Wear-and-tear mentally does affect how you feel.

Dunno if that's the case with Dresden, but judging from his experiences, I'd say it is.

Big D on a Diet
04-09-2009, 06:01 PM
Again, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about scenes like in one of the recent short stories (Day Off, I think) where Molly sees Harry dressed in a towel, and hardly notices, and Harry muses to himself about how he's getting old.

My point is that Dresden is still absurdly young for a wizard, and stuff like that detracts from the reality of his situation.

It's not bad writing or anything, it's just not how I would be handling it.

Samuel Black
04-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Ah. Sorry, thought you were referring to how Dresden always feels beat up and tired and shit.

Ragon
04-09-2009, 06:56 PM
Ah. Sorry, thought you were referring to how Dresden always feels beat up and tired and shit.

In the shot of Dresden's life we are given in the books, there is usually a even better reason for him to feel beat up, tired, and shit than the fact that he is around 40 years old.

Taure
04-09-2009, 07:06 PM
I thought he was in his late 20s?

Danjam
04-09-2009, 07:18 PM
I thought he was in his late 20s?

I think he started in his late 20's, but is now getting to be in his late 30's/early 40's.

As for the book, completely epic. One of my favorite Dresden books so far.

Montclair
04-09-2009, 07:33 PM
In Butcher's forum there is a Time line thread,


25 Yrs Before Strom Front, October 31: Harry is born.
10 Yrs After Strom Front, Summer: Turn Coat


So Harry is more or less 35 yrs old. Mental age or not, Harry is very young in Wizard standards. If he feels like worn out and tired of all the shit happening, how will he look/feel at the age of 100?. Compared to Merlin and Eb, Harry (300 Vs 35) is practically a baby.


On a unrelated note, Book 12 title was announced in the forum,

Jim at St. Paul Minneapolis last night told the gathered audience the title to Book 12 would be:
Changes

Rehio
04-09-2009, 08:37 PM
Jim at St. Paul Minneapolis last night told the gathered audience the title to Book 12 would be:
Changes

Strange, but interesting.

Enjoyed Turn Coat greatly. Nothing more to say than that, really.

Innomine
04-10-2009, 01:49 PM
On a unrelated note, Book 12 title was announced in the forum,

Jim at St. Paul Minneapolis last night told the gathered audience the title to Book 12 would be:
Changes

This is strange.

Every single title so far as been two words, each with the same amount of letters.

Either way, definitely an excellent book. I am however going to have to go and reread it again soon, I think.

Highly enjoyable, either way.

Jangel
04-10-2009, 03:42 PM
Hmm, it seems there are going to be some CHANGES in both naming and content :awesom

Fuegodefuerza
04-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Loved it. Jim's latest far, FAR exceeded my expectations. I can't wait for Changes. :(

Nuhuh
04-10-2009, 09:48 PM
Somehow I am left less satisfied than I expected I would be, to me the short stories in between Small Favor and Turn Coat had more punch.

Maybe part of that is that the big reveal was spoiled in this thread earlier by some moron who didn't know how to use spoiler tags, and the second part is that during the Listens-to-Wind duel against Skinwalker all I could see in my head was this scene: Sword in the Stone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lzf1XroT6w)

In other thoughts:

I was glad to see that I was right about being suspicious of Luccio's interest in Harry after reading Small Favor, I mentioned in a post here that it seemed too sudden, it makes sense now. Still I am glad she was gotten rid of before she turned into yet another "Independent!Woman but a freak in the bed" token character... well, she dodged that bullet by a hair.

Molly...*sighs* She had so much potential, but in the last three stories by Butcher either her bra has come off or her shirt or both, and nipples are a staple part of her description. It's like with Murphy, at least once it must be mentioned that she is short but tough, so it must be mentioned about Molly that she has tits and nipples! ...another female character falls to the doom of fan favors. At least the man can write Murphy well. I am so happy Kincaid wasn't in this book.

I had become a little used to my yearly dose of fae, so sorry they weren't in this, but TootToot rocked the house. Merlin and Listens-to-Wind were pretty cool too.

I especially liked Morgan.

...and Butcher came very, very close to spoiling Lara for me like he did with Bianca. Close but she's still lovely *whew*

Edit: nvm, it was the other thread that someone spoiled the ending in. Oh well I suppose I can take my spoiler tags off the text in here, since Jon's first post warns about spoilers.

DarthBill
04-10-2009, 11:08 PM
I have to say that I really enjoyed it. I like that Molly's boobs are her most useful feature (perhaps rivaled by her ability with veils), I like that Murphy's defining characteristic is strength despite size, and I like that Lara's name can't be mentioned without at least one paragraph describing her incredible beauty (unless she's been burnt to a crisp).

I also noticed the resemblance to the "Sword in the Stone", but I liked that too.

The thing I liked most, though, was that Molly and Morgan were an inch from killing each other every single time Harry got back to the apartment.

The only disappointment was that Harry never even offered the occasional booty call to Luccio. I mean, I know that she would have refused, but a man would have made the attempt.

Just sayin'.

Midknight
04-11-2009, 04:15 AM
There were a lot of things that seemed like he forgot about, and either quickly rushed them or just didn't bother. Who else was on the island? What about the headaches? One of the best books yet, but wasn't perfect and had a few aggravating parts.

STOP explaining shit over, and over. Yes you have a Foo dog who's big. Yes, Murphy is small and looks like an aunt, but you want to fill her full of jizz, yeah Molly went dark for a bit, yeah there's a black council, etc, etc. It's annoying as hell and screams filler.

And stop beating the hell out of the guy nonstop. Seriously, what is the point of beating him to near death if he gets up, whines about it, then 15 pages later it's like it never happened? Or he just gets bandaged up and goes out to kill/fight super baddie.

I still think the skinwalker was fail, and the soulfire usage was weak as well. But hey, at least it's not a giant fucking hand of god again.

Still no info on the swords. Thomas =( Lara =) Murphy was just as annoying as usual. Too much humor. Every time he comes home they're all in the same basic positions.

The island was pimp.

The Disney changing shape shit was fail. Dresden's universe magic didn't have stuff like that before, a monster doing it, fine, a human... eh I don't like it.

Peabody.. with ink... and he had a mordite inkwell bomb thing. Fail.

I figured he'd lose Luccio soon after he got started with her, she was basically there just to get rid of his protection from the White Court I'd think.

Grey Council. Nice, but please rename it.

The P.I. eh. Nonmagic Harry. Get rid of him and just make Molly act more mature. She slips back into black magic attempts, I'm betting she goes dark towards the end after finishing her apprenticeship.

Thomas being tortured bit was awesome, but it should of been a whole chapter with his torment or something, not a few sentences.

Wtf is Lash? Wtf with the headaches?

Morgan. In Nevada. With a nuke. Epic.

I'm tired of the wizard "I know something you don't shit" Obviously the island is fucked. But they won't tell him why. Fail. Suspense building is one thing, but talk about it.. what? Rashid, Eb, Eb's journal, so at least 3 times about the island and how fucked Harry is for taking it, and then don't explain shit.

TELL US ABOUT HIS MOTHER DAMNIT! Yes this gives the most backstory, but again, if you're going to talk about it, flesh it out.

Pretty good read. Lots of answers, lots of new questions. Didn't like the Skinwalker. Yes, Butcher beefed it up, power wise, but all the way through the book I had this feeling that it was kinda artificial: it had no right being so powerful, it should have been weaker.

Don't know why that is. Maybe because I have no interest in Native American mythology, maybe because I feel like most of the power players have been already established and you can't just keep adding new ones ad hoc.This

My personal theory is that, with the way wizards age, Harry's physical age should be closer to mid 20s, and that Butcher is projecting too much of himself on his character.

He left Ebenezar at age 19, and spent a year or two wandering the country before arriving in Chicago though this is not revealed until Summer Knight. Two years later, he began working under a P.I. named Nicholas Christian, for a detective agency called Ragged Angel Investigations. These events are partially chronicled in "Restoration of Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Butcher#Other)." He spent three years with Nick before opening his own business, which had been open for two years at the time of the first book, Storm Front.

Nah do the math on it, he's in his mid 30s. 19+1, returns to chicago +2 start working Ragged Angel, +3 years with Nick, +2 years before SF. 27 at start of SF, he's 38 now. +/-

But yeah, he should stop acting like an old man and get to having some fun.

Ragon
04-11-2009, 04:37 AM
@Mid
One reason we had never seen ANYTHING even remotely like the changing into animals stuff, is because we had never really seen anything of the Senior Council as far as actually using magic is concerned. These guys have centuries of knowledge and experience to go along with a shitload of power. Its not suprising that we will start to see just how far magic in Butcher's universe can go as McCoy and the others start to really become more of a factor.

Taure
04-11-2009, 05:03 AM
I suspect that turning into animals like that is something that only Injun Joe can do out of the senior council. It's probably his speciality or something. Very Native American, shaman-like, magic.

Big D on a Diet
04-11-2009, 08:37 AM
He left Ebenezar at age 19, and spent a year or two wandering the country before arriving in Chicago though this is not revealed until Summer Knight. Two years later, he began working under a P.I. named Nicholas Christian, for a detective agency called Ragged Angel Investigations. These events are partially chronicled in "Restoration of Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Butcher#Other)." He spent three years with Nick before opening his own business, which had been open for two years at the time of the first book, Storm Front.

Nah do the math on it, he's in his mid 30s. 19+1, returns to chicago +2 start working Ragged Angel, +3 years with Nick, +2 years before SF. 27 at start of SF, he's 38 now. +/-

But yeah, he should stop acting like an old man and get to having some fun.

Here we go again. I know that he's in his mid to late thirties, but what we know about the aging process of wizards tells us that his physical appearance should probably be that of a younger man. What Butcher's been writing lately suggests highly that Dresden's appearance matches his real age, which doesn't sound right to me.

In particular, the line where he mentions that he's "not a man in his twenties anymore" struck me as strange. As wizards go, he's still an infant.

My personal opinion is that Butcher is projecting his own experiences with growing older onto his character, and I just don't think it fits in the story.

Datakim
04-11-2009, 08:51 AM
Here we go again. I know that he's in his mid to late thirties, but what we know about the aging process of wizards tells us that his physical appearance should probably be that of a younger man. What Butcher's been writing lately suggests highly that Dresden's appearance matches his real age, which doesn't sound right to me.

In particular, the line where he mentions that he's "not a man in his twenties anymore" struck me as strange. As wizards go, he's still an infant.

My personal opinion is that Butcher is projecting his own experiences with growing older onto his character, and I just don't think it fits in the story.

We don't actually know that for certain. I mean if we go by the 3-4 century max then Dresden at 40 should almost be a teenager. I don't think the specific mechanism for Wizard aging has been told yet so for all we know, Wizards age completely normally until they reach the age of say 50 and then begin to slow from there.

We know that it is magic that causes this slowing. We also know that Wizards tend to fully come to their abilities once they are older. So in a way it might make sense that as a young inexperienced wizard without full control of his magical power, Dresden ages quickly(for a wizard). But once he starts becoming more skilled&efficient at wielding magic, the rate of his aging slows down aswell.

kmfrank
04-11-2009, 09:29 AM
Well, we do know a likely mechanism for the long lifespan, actually - its probably the same as the mechanism for how Harry's arm isn't totally fucking melted, and how his brain is probably repairing the damage done to it when Lash sped up his thought processes.

Butters explained it as Harry's cells constantly repairing themselves to improve function, unlike a normal human's where it stops at "good enough" and a cut leaves a scar of fibrous tissue, for example.

So with that conjecture as the basis for the argument, I'm not sure that his physical appearance would be much affected as a man of 38, so much as the usual problems that crop up wouldn't be affecting him that much.

After all, we haven't heard about Harry's chronic back problems from being tossed around like a rag doll. We haven't heard about his acid reflux when he eats one of Mac's steak sandwiches. We haven't heard about his receding hair line.

So maybe its just the little things like that, that are corrected for now.

All conjecture, of course, but I think it follows some logic.

Midknight
04-11-2009, 11:22 AM
Here we go again. I know that he's in his mid to late thirties, but what we know about the aging process of wizards tells us that his physical appearance should probably be that of a younger man. What Butcher's been writing lately suggests highly that Dresden's appearance matches his real age, which doesn't sound right to me.

In particular, the line where he mentions that he's "not a man in his twenties anymore" struck me as strange. As wizards go, he's still an infant.

My personal opinion is that Butcher is projecting his own experiences with growing older onto his character, and I just don't think it fits in the story.

Ah I got ya. Begs the question, when will he stop aging like a normal person?

Big D on a Diet
04-11-2009, 12:42 PM
I considered that that might be the way it worked, but if it is, then Butcher should have explained it that way. He's never been shy about explaining the aging processes of wizards to this point, and something like that would be good to know.

The "he should still be a teenager" argument is easily explained in that we know Harry's powers didn't start to emerge until he was already a teenager. Having him continue to age normally for a while after that is to be expected, but by the time we meet him, he's already a full-fledged member of the White Council with over a decade's worth of practice channeling magic, and his more efficient healing abilities have already manifested. By then, it's reasonable that his aging process would have slowed.

Ragon
04-11-2009, 01:26 PM
I dont give a fuck how long you might live and how your body ages. Theres only so long that you can go full speed ahead, throwing spells left and right without a break. He has learned he can only do so much before he has nothing left. Even Dresden has limits on his power and endurance.

Montclair
04-11-2009, 02:11 PM
Butter's theory revolves around the ability of Wizard's body cells repairing themselves to perfect replica. If the Wizard doesn't have any major injuries, the process will be uniform throughout the body. In case of injuries, the healing takes priority and the rest of the process proceed at a slower rate.

Harry received some injuries from his fight with Justin. From SF to TC, Harry acquired lot of injuries than an average Wizard. His burned hand recovered faster than normal, also his occasional injuries (head injury, back problems, broken bones, bullet injury and much more) healed very quickly. It’s possible that the magic or whatever responsible for replicating the body cells focused totally on repairing his injuries and due to that his aging process is slightly higher than normal Wizard.

The current situation with BC is not good for Harry. He'll get more injuries in the upcoming fights with them. Until the crisis is over, he'll be aging like a normal person (maybe a little slower than normal humans).

Big D on a Diet
04-11-2009, 02:18 PM
I dont give a fuck how long you might live and how your body ages. Theres only so long that you can go full speed ahead, throwing spells left and right without a break. He has learned he can only do so much before he has nothing left. Even Dresden has limits on his power and endurance.

That's been touched on several times in this discussion, and I've conceded that point, since it has nothing to do whatsoever with what I'm trying to say. I'm just commenting on a logic flaw that I believe has it's roots in the author over-identifying with his character.

On the other hand, we get a ringside seat for the toughest, most dangerous parts of Dresden's life. There are vast stretches of time that we don't have insight into between books (during "The Warrior", which takes place between Small Favor and this, Harry mentions that Michael had already been through "months of therapy, and more months of bed rest"), time that he likely uses to recover from his various adventures and injuries.

Butter's theory revolves around the ability of Wizard's body cells repairing themselves to perfect replica. If the Wizard doesn't have any major injuries, the process will be uniform throughout the body. In case of injuries, the healing takes priority and the rest of the process proceed at a slower rate.

You just made that up, right? Because I can't remember Butters saying any such thing. It was more like: "I have no idea how this works, just that it's happening."

Montclair
04-11-2009, 02:40 PM
You just made that up, right? Because I can't remember Butters saying any such thing. It was more like: "I have no idea how this works, just that it's happening."

Butters said. "That's how you're able to heal these injuries. It's why you have the potential to live so long. Your copies are perfect. Or at least a hell of a lot closer to it than most folks."

"Why?" I asked.

"Why what?"

"Why am I able to make good copies?"

He blew out a breath and pushed his hand through his wiry hair, grinning. "I have no freaking clue. Neat, huh?"

He knows how, but not why its possible with Harry (or Wizards in general). Its my theory that healing takes priority than slow aging process. It makes sense. Although I agree that the author is over-identifying with Harry's character.

kmfrank
04-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Butters said. "That's how you're able to heal these injuries. It's why you have the potential to live so long. Your copies are perfect. Or at least a hell of a lot closer to it than most folks."

"Why?" I asked.

"Why what?"

"Why am I able to make good copies?"

He blew out a breath and pushed his hand through his wiry hair, grinning. "I have no freaking clue. Neat, huh?"

He knows how, but not why its possible with Harry (or Wizards in general). Its my theory that healing takes priority than slow aging process. It makes sense. Although I agree that the author is over-identifying with Harry's character.

Yeah, I reread the entire applicable part of DB as well, and there's no mention of that. That "theory" of yours doesn't really make any sense at all, to me. Cellular growth/regeneration is faster in some tissues than others, but having to, for example, form a scab, doesn't inhibit your body's ability to grow the rest of your skin normally and shed it.

Harry's cells, by Butters' description, have more accurate DNA replication machinery that doesn't cut off the tail ends of the chromosomes (or at least doesn't do it as much/frequently). This has been implicated as one of the contributions to aging/death in recent scientific Biochemistry literature. That is all; there is no mention of having injuries "speed up" his aging process to something more human-like.

Sagita
04-11-2009, 04:14 PM
I liked the book, I felt that there was a lot of needed development in the Council front, after all The Fallen, Fae and Black council had been developed a lot during the last books, it was time for us to see a bi more of how WC worked.

This one is not my favorite, I still think Summer Knight is the best in the series so far, but I actually liked it and unlike some of you loved the shapeshifter thingie, it was tough but not Mab, Titania, Archangel, Outsider, Fallen, etc tough... I feel like he plays in a lower league, a league that Dresden can fight "mano a mano" and have a chance of beating wich of course might lead to Harry getting stronger.

Tehan
04-11-2009, 04:46 PM
Psychosomatism in da house.

Harry spends near every waking moment surrounded by normal humans. He hangs with Butters and Michael and Murphy, who certainly aren't getting younger. He watches Molly and Michael's other kids and Billy and his pack grow up. Everyone he sees on a day-to-day basis are either around his age and growing old and slowing down, or he remembers them as awkward half-grown teenagers and now they're all grown up and kicking arse.

No wonder he feels old.

Montclair
04-11-2009, 05:04 PM
-snip-


Now I think about it, I can see why it's wrong. After looking at Your explanation on aging process, My theory looks absurd. My theory says that the magic or whatever responsible is focusing on healing injuries (When there is no injuries, it'll focus on stopping the aging process). If it's true, then Wizards with lot of injuries should look more aged than normal. Which is clearly not the case in Dresden Files. After some search on aging process I found this.

Telomere Theory :
Telomeres (structures at the ends of chromosomes) have experimentally been shown to shorten with each successive cell division. Shortened telomeres activate a mechanism that prevents further cell multiplication. This may be an important mechanism of aging in tissues like bone marrow and the arterial lining where active cell division is necessary.

In biology, senescence is the state or process of aging. Cellular senescence is a phenomenon where isolated cells demonstrate a limited ability to divide in culture. After a period of near perfect renewal (in humans, between 20 and 35 years of age), cellular senescence has been attributed to the shortening of telomeres with each cell cycle; when telomeres become too short, the cells die.

So the aging process starts after 35 and that's where Butters explanation comes to play. When the cell copies are near perfect with each repair, it effectively stops the aging process. All the Wizards will have a normal growth up to age 35. After that the aging process will be very slow. It'll explain why Morgan looks like 40 when his actual age is over 100.

Psychosomatism in da house.

-snip-

No wonder he feels old.

True, mentally Harry feels like an old man.

I feel like he plays in a lower league, a league that Dresden can fight "mano a mano" and have a chance of beating wich of course might lead to Harry getting stronger.
I don't think so. So far Harry comes out top on all of his encounters. Harry killed a Summer Lady, lot of Fallens and defeated an Outsider. In TC, he's clearly out of his league. If Injune Joe had not interfered, the Skinwalker would have killed him. Despite Harry's efforts, the BC won in the end. This is sort of turning point in the Dresden Series. From now on Harry will have lot more defeats than victories in the future.

Samuel Black
04-11-2009, 07:54 PM
I think that you guys are making to big a deal about the age thing. Okay, yes, compared to other wizards, he's practically a kid. Older wizards may look back on a time when they were thirty or so, and think 'Wow, I was so young and naive back then.'

Harry isn't an older wizard yet, though. He's actually thirty five years old. So when he says, 'I'm not in my twenties anymore', guess what, he's actually not.

He's not going to have that hindsight to let him realize that he's actually very fucking young.
I always took the healing/age issue as, yeah, they age normally, but when they reach that certain point where normal people's bodies break down and decay, wizards keep going.

kmfrank
04-11-2009, 10:04 PM
Now I think about it, I can see why it's wrong. After looking at Your explanation on aging process, My theory looks absurd.

Hmm...

After much consideration, I still cannot tell if you are being sarcastic. Just in case, I'll call you a nigger and walk away. Thanks for the advice on that plan of action, Mindless.

Also, I too cannot decide whether Harry/Molly is now more out of the question or more a possibility for a future pairing from this book. I need to reread the whole series or something in light of TC.

J22
04-12-2009, 03:10 AM
I kind of want Harry/Molly just to see Charity's reaction.
Turn coat was good. My only real problem with it was the lack of humour compared to the other books.
Also Soulfire is awesome, strangling the skinwalker was particularly cool.

Lollipop4598
04-12-2009, 08:57 AM
Alright, some thoughts.

Turn Coat was much, much more awesome then I thought it would be. I didn't have high hopes after the sample chapters, but it turned into one of the better books in the series.

Though Peabody? With mind control ink? Seems weak to me, even with the small amount of foreshadowing that Butcher used early on in the book (Peabody getting Eb to sign some stuff). It would have been better if it was revealed in a way other then "YOU DID IT WITH THE INKWELL!".

Morgan was suitably epic.

I'm dissapointed about Luccio, but not really sad. We've known her since Dead Beat, but she was only really a major character in Small Favor, if that. Maybe Harry will eventually get a non vampire, non mindwarped girl. Sadly it looks like it'll be Molly or Murphy. Probably Murphy. Though for some reason I keep thinking Harry/Ivy would be epic.

Demonreach was pretty cool, and I can't wait for more to come with it.

Out of all the people intro'd in this book, it seems like the Lawyer and the P.I. will be sticking around for a while. Harry never really gazes someone who's not important and the P.I. has a main character vibe.

Now one of the major questions this book left for me. With Thomas gone off the deep end and Morgan dead, who wields the swords? Thomas will probably get the love one (can't spell it off the top of my head) in a book or two, but the faith one is still up for grabs.

Another one is what will happen with Harry and Lara? She knows he's not protected now and seems intrested in riding him like a pony.

Oh, and last thing. Grey Council? Honestly?
Ok. I agree the Peabody thing was weak. I knew it was him from the moment they introduced him in the book. I just knew it.
Also. I am really disappointed in the White Council seeming to have zero IQ points. They just can't believe that Morgan was framed with all their knowledge of magic. But they believe that a magic user just decided to go kill someone and didn't use magic to do it, or to save himself? That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Especially from Mai. She is old, she should know that simple things are rarely true. If something looks too obvious, it probably is. Also, I am not buying this idea that killing innocent people stabelizes a government. I think it tends to make people have revolutions. Killing Morgan lost them a great war asset, and gained them absolutely nothing except that other powers now know that they can be manipulated into killing their own best people. How is that good? And just how would these people that wanted to secede be able to protect themselves if they walked? Too many things that make no sense. The Grey Council is fine by me. Thats as good a name as any.

I liked the book, I felt that there was a lot of needed development in the Council front, after all The Fallen, Fae and Black council had been developed a lot during the last books, it was time for us to see a bi more of how WC worked.

This one is not my favorite, I still think Summer Knight is the best in the series so far, but I actually liked it and unlike some of you loved the shapeshifter thingie, it was tough but not Mab, Titania, Archangel, Outsider, Fallen, etc tough... I feel like he plays in a lower league, a league that Dresden can fight "mano a mano" and have a chance of beating wich of course might lead to Harry getting stronger.

I loved the Skinwalker, and I totally disagree about its lower league. Its the first thing that actually was clever enough to mess up Harry. It won where the Outsider totally lost. If it wasn't for Toot and Injun Joe Harry would have died. I thought it was just too cool. Im glad it survived, too. I picture it sort of like an overly huge Tasmanian devil from the cartoon. Orange fur and all.

That's been touched on several times in this discussion, and I've conceded that point, since it has nothing to do whatsoever with what I'm trying to say. I'm just commenting on a logic flaw that I believe has it's roots in the author over-identifying with his character.

On the other hand, we get a ringside seat for the toughest, most dangerous parts of Dresden's life. There are vast stretches of time that we don't have insight into between books (during "The Warrior", which takes place between Small Favor and this, Harry mentions that Michael had already been through "months of therapy, and more months of bed rest"), time that he likely uses to recover from his various adventures and injuries.



You just made that up, right? Because I can't remember Butters saying any such thing. It was more like: "I have no idea how this works, just that it's happening."
NOPE he did not make that up. Butters said that exact thing about why Harrys hand has healed. That the cells do not degrade but are reproduced exactly the same as the originals. So, maybe you owe that poster an appology for saying he made it up.

Taure
04-12-2009, 09:30 AM
They just can't believe that Morgan was framed with all their knowledge of magic. But they believe that a magic user just decided to go kill someone and didn't use magic to do it, or to save himself? That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Especially from Mai. She is old, she should know that simple things are rarely true.

If you remember, none of them believed on a personal level that Morgan did it. However, they're smart enough people, it seems, that they know that evidence > personal faith.

The evidence against Morgan was overwhelming.

You seem to be saying that if evidence is overwhelming then you should doubt it for being too convenient.

That just sounds rather stupid to me. It would make one screwed up justice system.

As the series goes on I'm sympathising more and more with the way the White Council does business (as is, I think, Harry). The little conversation in this book about how the White Council is about limiting power, not delivering justice, was good.

As for Dresden's aging, I think Tehan's right. He probably is pretty spry for a 38 year old. He just feels old. And what person doesn't begin to feel old at that age? Hell, I'm 20, and I feel old <_<

Tehan
04-12-2009, 10:19 AM
They just can't believe that Morgan was framed with all their knowledge of magic. But they believe that a magic user just decided to go kill someone and didn't use magic to do it, or to save himself? That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

They believed that a Warden (known for wielding big fuck-off swords), specifically Morgan (known for executing people with a big fuck-off sword), killed someone with a dagger (like a big fuck-off sword, only smaller). LaFortier would have had layers upon layers of defences against magic, and having to say a spell would've given him time to react, not to mention getting the attention of every fucking magic-user in the building. A dagger shoved in something vital from behind when he doesn't expect it doesn't do any of that.

And all those beliefs only apply to the few people that aren't politicking, or fucked over by Peabody's ink to the point of going along with it, or biding their time, or quietly trying to uncover evidence to clear Morgan.

Oh, and by the way, you're an idiot.

Big D on a Diet
04-12-2009, 10:56 AM
NOPE he did not make that up. Butters said that exact thing about why Harrys hand has healed. That the cells do not degrade but are reproduced exactly the same as the originals. So, maybe you owe that poster an appology for saying he made it up.

He admitted he basically made it up. Choke on a dick.

Midknight
04-12-2009, 12:24 PM
Montclair

The Holy Grail of anti-aging is thought to be the Telomere. At the ends of our 46 Chromosomes are DNA snippets (short pieces) with the base pairs of TTAGG, which stands for Thymine-Thymine-Adenine and Guanine-Guanine. This is the Telomere and the time clock of our cells. Each time our cells divide we lose anywhere from 50 -100 of these snippets. When we are down to less than 1000 the cell just dies because it can no longer divide. When you look at people with diseases, their Telomeres tend to be much shorter than their aged matched controls. The question has arisen, is it the disease that has shortened the Telomere or did the shortened Telomere predispose it to a disease process? It turns out that it is the shortened Telomere that allowed the disease to manifest itself. So our goal therefore is to keep our Telomeres as long as possible and when and wherever to reverse lengthen them.

Telomerase is the enzyme that slows down or stops the Telomere from shortening. .

Some more info on it, Area 51 series of books goes deep in depth about this stuff, and it's pretty awesome. You currently probably know someone with the ability to live forever... at least part of them. Telomere and Telomerase levels are skyhigh inside cancer cells. They duplicate the cancer nearly flawlessly making it nigh impossible in some situation to get rid of the cancer.

From now on Harry will have lot more defeats than victories in the future.

To be fair he's always "just" barely won. He always gets the shit kicked out of him to near death. Which I hate, but still.

And to the rest of you about the age thing. You do feel vastly different just between 18 and 27, trust me on that. You gain 20lbs and it slows you down, makes you sore, less agile. Harry's mentioned putting on weight, he's gotten the shit kicked out of him for 8+ years. He's got every right to be bitching about it.

Harry's fighting for his life multiple times a year, shit just stress from work slows me down, makes me grumpy, imagine if it was you in his shoes.

Invader.Azula
04-14-2009, 10:26 AM
I just got finished reading it on Sunday and yes it was completely awesome. Peabody, I knew he was the traitor just by reading his name. If you name your kid Peabody I guarantee that he's going to be a psycho. Luccio was a freak! I guess when Harry said mind-blowing sex he wasn't kidding. I'm pretty sure Lara taught her a few things. But since it wasn't of her own free will, wouldn't it be rape? I'm was just reminded of Supernatural when Sam slept with Ruby and all the fans went batshit insane because they thought he was raping a innocent woman who was trapped inside her own body. Poor Thomas, he was one of my favorites. I really hope he comes back soon somehow. Maybe Justine will be able to help him. Morgan was awesome in this book. But I've always like him since book 6 so I was a little happy to see him be a main character in this one. But then he died! I would've loved to see him join the Grey Council (which has to be the stupidest name for a organization ever. What next? Turquoise?). And I hope they don't go the Harry/Molly or Harry/Murphy route. I don't think that he would ever go for Molly and Harry/Murphy has become the new Harry/Ginny because of the horrendous fanfiction. And as for ages, I think that Harry is about 34-36. Butcher said that Harry's age will be important in one of the upcoming books so maybe we'll finally learn something.

My favorite scenes were:
-All three times Molly and Morgan tried to kill each other.
-Harry getting a little homoerotic with the Merlin. :)
-Morgan checking out Molly.
-Any part with Demonreach or the Gatekeeper. Hopefully they'll be in the next book too.
-Thomas and Justine tagteaming Madeline.
-Madeline getting her guts ripped out by Lara (and appearently enjoying it)
-And for some reason, the part with Morgan sitting in his wheelchair holding a juice box and Molly standing there with shotgun had me giggling for an hour or so.

And does anybody else think that Shagnasty sounds like a villian from an Austin Powers movie?

Bukay
04-14-2009, 05:56 PM
I've got my hands on the book last thursday... at midnight... and I was hesitant. The next day I had lectures since 8am.

But it was the book I've been waiting for so long.
And I was like: the book... lectures... THE BOOK... lectures... THE BOOK!!!

I was done with it by 6am and slept off the rest of the day. Totally worth it.

The fun parts:

-All three times Molly and Morgan tried to kill each other.

Indeed, the third episode of Molly/Morgan stand-off was the best. Hary came in, saw the situation and helped himself to a can of coke :D

-Morgan checking out Molly.

What can I say? An ass he can be, but he still is a man and can appreciate the joys of life.

And the most epic thing IMHO:

Morgan NUKED a skinwalker :D

As to the book itself, after the first 5 chapters being discussed here, I was convinced that Morgan was going to receive a new sword... It is a pity that he is no more. One can only wonder who will be assigned as the next watcher of Molly/Dresden.

The part with Injun Joe being pointed out as the possible traitor was too obvious to even be considered as a possibility... The premise of Dresden undergoing further training is appreciated. The sheer improvement of his skills brought by training Molly and revising the basics is impressive, now perhaps he will learn how to heal himself... he sure could use it :)

Aekiel
04-14-2009, 11:24 PM
The one thing I am now absolutely certain of is that Cowl = Harry from the future. This whole story has introduced plot points that practically yell it out from the heavens. Here's why:

1) Demonreach - a source of a shit load of magical power that gave Harry a sort of omniscience while on the island. It is alluded to being some sort of project of the White Council's in the past, I'm thinking it's a last resort in case something disastrous happens, something that will happen in one of the next five books (Butcher has said that some of the books will be in a post-apocalyptic setting, right?).

2) Grey Council - Harry is gradually changing his views to ones more in line with the White Council's, specifically the one about sacrificing innocents for the good of the whole. What difference would it make to the fate of the world if say... Cowl had succeeded with the Darkhallow and become a demi-God? Would it destroy them all? Or would it give them the power to face an even greater threat, one that hasn't awakened yet?

3) Lash - She's still alive, we all know it, and she has the mental processing power to utilise the Demonreach's pseudo-omniscience in crafting a spell, and who better to understand the way time works than one who was around at its inception?

4) Rashid - His suspicion of Harry as a member of the Black Council, his warning about the Demonreach 'changing' him, his already established ability to send messages back in time from his future self. I think he knows Harry will become a member of the BC but doesn't know when exactly that will occur so he's keeping an eye on him, waiting for the time when it happens or perhaps trying to change it.

5) Ebenezer's journals - Harry is being groomed either for a position on the Senior Council or to become the new Blackstaff, that much is certain. Both the Blackstaff and Gatekeeper positions allow access to time travel magic and Harry has the moral fortitude to withstand falling into the lures of Black Magic in the event that he does become the Blackstaff. Added on to that he will also receive the journals of Ebenezer's forebearers, whom were probably Blackstaffs themselves. That's a lot of knowledge, even if there isn't much magic in them. Knowledge is power and I've got a feeling that the original purpose of the Demonreach is recorded in them books somewhere.

6) The Black Council - While never the most benevolent of characters they seem to have been behind 90% of the schemes in the series and have their hands in every party going. White Council: Peabody. White Court: Madeline. Red Court: All of them (likely due to mind control - guess who is good at that...). Jade Court: Cristos has spent many years in Asia and he's a very likely candidate to be a member (need more info for that). Black Court: Mavra. Seelie Court: Aurora. Unseelie: Possibly Mab, though I think she's aware of it if they do and that they've either bound her voice or done something to let them know what she's saying (hence the game of charades and speaking through another medium).

The only ones I can think of that might not be infiltrated would be John Marcone's gang, but he's involved with Monoc Securities who are almost certainly a front for Odin (or something related to him/it) and thus wild cards.

There's more to come but I'm tired and not thinking straight any more so I'll come back and edit it later.

Also, MORGAN NUKED A SKINWALKER! FUCK YEAH!

Samuel Black
04-14-2009, 11:47 PM
I can see one problem with your theory. And that's the fact that Cowl has tried to kill Harry, or at least in White Night Harry assumed it was Cowl. If Cowl really was Harry from the future, he'd understand that if he actually succeeded in killing Harry, there would be a major fucking paradox.

On the other hand, since he already survived everything his Cowl threw at him when it was his first time around, he knows that Harry will survive whatever he throws at him.

Fuck, I hate time travel.

Edit: Yeah, like Ellisande said. I really hate time travel. It'd be pretty interesting if Cowl did turn out to be a future version of Harry, but I'd almost be... disappointed, I think. Unless there's a damn good reason for it.

Innomine
04-15-2009, 12:21 AM
Or maybe he was just pushing him into the situation he needed to be in. Where he wanted him to be.

Red Aviary
04-15-2009, 03:19 AM
Harry becoming evil to stop evil sounds appealing to me, for some reason. I guess I just like that premise.

Molly being Kumori would fit, too, if her dad (or the entire Carpenter family) died. It would explain her desire for a world without death.

As for Turn Coat... 4.5/5. My biggest gripes with it have mostly to do with Butcher teasing us with Dresden's mother, and with no one getting any Swords of the Cross in this book... complaints already detailed by others earlier, so I don't really need to elaborate.

And I've got a problem with Morgan dying, but it didn't effect how much I liked the book much - I just thought he was totally badass. I'm going to miss that earth-magic he did in Dead Beat.

Ragon
04-15-2009, 05:15 AM
I am willing to bet that if the Merlin gets his way Harry Dresden will never get closer to those journals than he did in Turn Coat. Those journals would turn a already extremely dangerous Dresden into basiclly an unofficial blackstaff.

I personally can understand the reasons why the Merlin and the others distrust Harry so much.

1. He was a killer at the age of 16. Sure in self defense but its something that marks you forever.

2. In terms of pure power Harry is more powerful than most of the council. Luccio says that even she cant match Harry power for power. Sure Luccio or Morgan could probably tear him apart piece by piece but they have had over a century to master what power they have.

3. His contacts. Really think about this. How many people can actually claim to have meet, spoken too, and survived all the Queens of Winter? He is Mab's first choice as Knight. He is friendly with the Summer Lady and Knight, not too mention having meet the Summer Mother. He is friends with the only active Sword of the Cross. He has contacts in the Church. A major ally in the White Court in Thomas and a sort of ally in Lara. Ivy likes him, Kincaid respects him enough to help at the very least.

Im probably forgetting some people but these are the major ones outside the council. The scary part is that he has meet all these people at less than half a century old.

4. Knowledge: No telling what all he learned from Justin, Bob, Kemmeler's Book(enough that Marva is scared shitless), he has mastered alot of what he sorta knew from teaching Molly.

5. Experience: if you cant figure this one out reread the books.

Kalas
04-17-2009, 04:41 PM
As cool as it sounds there is one major problem with Cowl = Future!Harry. Paradox. Bob has confirmed it, paradox can happen in Dresdenverse. That is why its one of the laws of magic.

Yet Kumori didn't know about Dresden's burned hand. Cowl overestimated Harry's abilities in Dead Beat. This points to a different timeline then what has actually happened. Which is a problem when dealing with time travel.

Anlun
04-17-2009, 11:10 PM
Just finished reading it. I liked it but there was something really offputting about the book. I don't know what it was but after I finished I was left with a bad taste in my mouth.

I guess I just felt like it was a major cock tease. From Small Favors we were left with a crippled Michael, Harry with two swords of the cross and a possible user in Murphy, a taste of Soulfire but no real good use of it, and a strong buildup.

This should of been a wind down book with a some strong foreshadowing, but instead we got the same format of an epic all hells battle in the end, with Harry getting his ass kicked, but using his noggin to get a one up.

I'm for epic battles but I'm getting a little tired of huge shit going down every book. It weakens the importance of actual battles when every year Harry fights some crazy battle. Think back to Summer Knight. The reason that book was so amazing was because until then all Harry did was fight one on one, or two on one against some Big Bad. But then we get Summer Knight, where it's an all out war between the Fae.

I think Butcher need to go tone down the battles, have Harry kick ass but not have an Lord of of the Rings esque battles.

Listens to the Wind was really uninteresting to me. Perhaps it's because I don't give a shit about shamanistic magic, or maybe because I couldn't stand that shapeshifting. What was the point of fighting the Skinwalker with shapeshifting when he was raping it with his own magic?He made it rain nulling the Skinwalker's magic, and he was just bitch slapping away all the attacks. It seemed to be just a cock waving contest between the two. One turns into a snake, the other a mongoose. One turns into a raven the other a an eagle...Seemed very Wonder Twins.

Shit I didn't like:

-What the fuck was up with the headaches and the MRI machine mention, if they don't bother mentioning it again.

-Listens to the Wind
-Barely no mention of Michael. I get he was featured greatly in the last one, and The Warrior is about him (haven't read it), but it would of been nice to hear an update on his status.
- No updates on Harry's magical knowledge. Perhaps I'm one of the few who feel this way but I've always enjoyed when Harry would do something new with magic that we haven't seen before. Potions, little Chicago, summoning demons, etc. Yes we had the DemonReach thing but I found that unimpressive. I prefer more knowledge based magic than cheap powerups.

-Harry getting his asskicked yet again. Just once I would like him to have a onesided fight with something and coming out on top without some disfiguring mark. Anyone question how ugly is this guy. He's a ridiculously tall, lanky guy that's been mentioned to be really skinny (though now apparently he's gained weight , with a gross burnt hand, age lines across his face, a scar down his brow and cheek, and a scar down his lip. He also dresses hobo ish with the exception of the trench (which is just weird),and wears pimp rings on each finger.

The bullshit resolution at the end where Harry goes to play Dungeons and Dragons or w/e with the wolf pack to cheer them up after their friend just got eaten a day ago. Give me a fucking break. And then he has the nuts to give this holier than though speech about moving on. The guy just got mauled the day before, show some tact. That was poorly done imo.
Awesome stuff.

-I liked the Skinwalker. I don't like the way he was used, but the concept was nice. It's good to see magical beings that are not factionalized. Seems like every magical being in TDF forms an organization, and it's nice to see something outside the box for once. On a side not didn't anyone catch the mention of the SkinWalker being called a demi-god or something along those lines?

-Morgan nuking one.

- The non-magical badass detective. It was stupid to have another detective in the story but I liked the character

-Almost no Murphy. It took 15 books but finally this bitch learned her place. No "I'M A COP DRESDEN I TOOK AN OATH" bullshit. She finally accepted that she can't do shit.


Is anyone else disappointed that we haven't seen any demons since the early books? I've been hoping for some Chauncy or some other demon interaction, but it looks like Butcher is staying away from that. All Dresden has to do is call one up and ask it about the Black Council.

skuert
04-19-2009, 01:45 PM
@Taure:

I wouldnt be suprised if McCoy learned the lessons that he taught Harry the hard way, just like Harry did. Like Uriel told Harry "The burned hand teachs best."

Finally finished it and have to say it is without doubt the best of Butcher's work. While soul fire disappoints a bit, it is still early for Harry to have really learned how to use it all that well. We also finally got to see the Senior Council in action and they did not disappoint.

I think soulfire doesn't disappoint at all. Harry uses it in a very diffrent way than in small favour. to me that reeks of potential...

You assume the Merlin knows about those journals.
The way I've read it these are passed down from master to pupil and the white councli doesnt have any say in it.
Though it would be interresting if The Merlin learns of the journal of merlin and demand it...



I am willing to bet that if the Merlin gets his way Harry Dresden will never get closer to those journals than he did in Turn Coat. Those journals would turn a already extremely dangerous Dresden into basiclly an unofficial blackstaff.

I personally can understand the reasons why the Merlin and the others distrust Harry so much.

1. He was a killer at the age of 16. Sure in self defense but its something that marks you forever.

2. In terms of pure power Harry is more powerful than most of the council. Luccio says that even she cant match Harry power for power. Sure Luccio or Morgan could probably tear him apart piece by piece but they have had over a century to master what power they have.

3. His contacts. Really think about this. How many people can actually claim to have meet, spoken too, and survived all the Queens of Winter? He is Mab's first choice as Knight. He is friendly with the Summer Lady and Knight, not too mention having meet the Summer Mother. He is friends with the only active Sword of the Cross. He has contacts in the Church. A major ally in the White Court in Thomas and a sort of ally in Lara. Ivy likes him, Kincaid respects him enough to help at the very least.

Im probably forgetting some people but these are the major ones outside the council. The scary part is that he has meet all these people at less than half a century old.

4. Knowledge: No telling what all he learned from Justin, Bob, Kemmeler's Book(enough that Marva is scared shitless), he has mastered alot of what he sorta knew from teaching Molly.

5. Experience: if you cant figure this one out reread the books.

Raggerd
04-19-2009, 04:21 PM
My likes and dislikes about TC pretty much echo what has been posted here. The one thing I haven't seen discussed much here yet is:

Wile E. Coyote - Suuuuuper Genius

I like that he is getting craftier. I feel that will help him more than learning how to control Soulfire or make a more energy efficient fireball.

Sagita
04-19-2009, 06:25 PM
I do not think that Cowl = Harry from the future, after all it would be a waste of time to go back in time just to try to turn into a demi-god knowing that you will be beaten... And the whole "I want to get myself to where I need to be" sound kind of dumb having the knowledge that there can be paradoxes. Anyway, no one can really know how time travel works here and it will just cause headaches all around.

I think that this book has fortetold the probable dead of Ebenazar and with the whole conversation about the journals I think, as many here, that Eb wants Harry to fill his post however, unlike many here, I think that the Merlin won't have a problem with Dresden filling said post, I think that Harry gained some favor with Merlin after his work in TC.

Kalas
04-19-2009, 06:56 PM
I think you're confusing 'favor' with acknowledgment of his abilities.

Innomine
04-19-2009, 07:03 PM
Even though the Merlin doesn't like him, he won't hesitate to use him. If he is best suited to the post of blackstaff, then the Merlin will put him in it.

I don't think this is likely for a while however. But yeah, that could be taken as favor.

Aekiel
04-19-2009, 07:45 PM
For the people who have been deriding the time travel!Dresden idea... Perhaps alternate universe would suit better? Or Dresden having changed the time line since coming back, though that would create a paradox... Well, we'll just have to wait and see.

Chengar Qordath
04-19-2009, 08:21 PM
Even though the Merlin doesn't like him, he won't hesitate to use him. If he is best suited to the post of blackstaff, then the Merlin will put him in it.
I quite agree. Butcher has pointed out several times that the Merlin is a politician, and if there's one thing politicians are infamous for it's a willingness to do anything to advance their interests. However much personal dislike there is between the two, the Merlin is pragmatic enough to see when Harry is useful and take advantage of him; that's pretty much exactly the reason he helped Harry investigate the charges against Morgan after all.

Taure
04-19-2009, 08:27 PM
Yeah, he's a politician, but he's also a man. He'll never like Dresden, only learn to stand him when it's beneficial. The dislike is pretty strong; it'd take a fair amount of doing on Harry's part to make the Merlin think he was a good idea for the Blackstaff.

Chengar Qordath
04-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Yeah, he's a politician, but he's also a man. He'll never like Dresden, only learn to stand him when it's beneficial. The dislike is pretty strong; it'd take a fair amount of doing on Harry's part to make the Merlin think he was a good idea for the Blackstaff.
Oh, I quite agree; I doubt the Merlin would give Harry a position like Blackstaff unless it was the only effective option he had available, and even then he wouldn't be happy about it.

Ragon
04-20-2009, 06:52 AM
The main problem I have with Cowl= Harry from the future is that it would probably be atleast another century and a half before Harry is talented enough to use magic like that. Then he has to go back to the 1920s or 30s to become Kemmler's apprentice. That puts him on up there even for a wizard.

Taure
04-20-2009, 08:12 AM
Unless he goes back in time fairly soonish (say when he's 50), then becomes Kemmler's apprentice, then has 80 years or so to get that good at magic.

Ragon
04-20-2009, 12:48 PM
Unless he goes back in time fairly soonish (say when he's 50), then becomes Kemmler's apprentice, then has 80 years or so to get that good at magic.


My main problem with this idea is that it cant be easy to do. I doubt there are many wizards who know how. Im betting the magic is complicated and we all know that complicated magic isnt Dresden's thing.

Aekiel
04-21-2009, 09:23 AM
He has been learning a lot lately, and has gotten much better with the more subtle magics. Also, personally I see time travel as being more of a brute force type of magic. Punching your way through the walls of time to travel/send messages back.

One quick question though, since Lash is at least somewhat gone would Harry remember any part of the Word of Kemmler?

Tinn Tam
04-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Maybe part of that is that the big reveal was spoiled in this thread earlier by some moron who didn't know how to use spoiler tags, and the second part is that during the Listens-to-Wind duel against Skinwalker all I could see in my head was this scene: Sword in the Stone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lzf1XroT6w)


Thanks for that, I got to watch it again -- first time in ten years at least. :D

I, too, was strongly reminded of that scene while reading the shapeshifting duel, but then again, with the childhood I had, I doubt I can ever watch/read about a shapeshifting duel without having the Mim vs. Merlin fight replay in my head.

The skinwalker was... cool, sure, but he was lacking in a way. He had two original characteristics, one of which was his shapeshifting; but (the fight against Injun Joe excepted) he didn't make much use of it. He sometimes changed forms but that looked like a decorative gadget. Who cares if your enemy looks like a bull or a monkey, if you have a giant fireball hurled at your head anyway?... It's like when someone writes a story in first or second person because they've never tried it before, but without exploiting fully the concept of first or second person. It looks pretty and shiny and different but it's useless.

The second original characteristic was his ability to feed off his enemies' fear (I was reminded of Dementors here). But... well, same thing. We didn't see him use it that much. In the end, he just felt like yet another centuries-old superpowerful superstrong magic-wielding demon.

The nuke was cool though.

I loved DemonReach; it didn't feel like a cheap power-boost at all, but an alliance, and the introduction of a new character -- a freaking island, too. Generally speaking I've always been a fan of the concept of a place (island, forest, river, city, whatever) having its own personality and spirit. I would be hard pressed to explain why. Fact remains that idea always tickles my imagination in just the right spot.

Many characters got a new depth in this book. Dresden didn't change much, neither did Murphy; Luccio... Well. Luccio got manipulated so thoroughly, I wonder why we haven't seen a resurgence of her wounded pride. While breaking up with Dresden she sounded very reasonable and sincere. If I were her, i.e. if I were a two-centuries-old Italian soldier who had been manipulated into getting all mushy with the local boytoy, whom I rather liked but nothing more, I'd reasonably be reluctant to get close to anyone again (which she was) -- and sincerely saddened by the whole thing (which she was) -- but most of all I'd be pissed, and that, she wasn't.

It didn't bother me when I read the scene, but thinking back, I was a little surprised at the utter lack of thirst for revenge.

Morgan got the role of the arsehole-who-would-do-anything-for-the-girl-he-loved-even-though-she-rejected-him (wonder who that calls to mind). He was pretty good though. Still himself. And we got a few glimpses at what kind of life he must've had and how it shaped him into the man Dresden knew. (Again, wonder who that calls to mind. I need to stop reading Harry Potter.)

I was glad to have a little tête-à-tête between the Merlin and Dresden. It was a thoroughly entertaining scene, giving a glimpse of the Merlin's personality that wasn't as clichéd as I feared.

Molly wasn't as annoyingly rebellious as in previous books. She also proved to be likely to, in the Inquisition's words (the real one, not the DLP member), relapse one day. That's interesting. I had gotten used to seeing her as impatient, strong-willed, scared of most of the scary stuff, gifted for a couple of things, mostly nice and harmless -- all in all a nice Typical Female Apprentice postcard. This book reminded me she could turn into someone really dangerous if she slipped on the road of Black Magic again.

Thomas is back to what he first was -- or rather, what he should have been from the beginning. He was probably toying with the idea of vanquishing his Hunger long before Justine all but died at his hands, likely since he first fell in love with her, in fact. Now he's back to being a predator. He doesn't even pretend he wants to fight his nature. Therefore, like Molly, he got interesting. I hadn't felt that interested in Thomas since he joined the Erlking.

No other thoughts for now.

EDIT: right, forgot -- every time Dresden came home he found Molly and Morgan at each other's throats, with Mouse in between. That had me laugh. Aloud. In a public park full of kids and pigeon-lovers.

Taure
04-21-2009, 12:15 PM
One quick question though, since Lash is at least somewhat gone would Harry remember any part of the Word of Kemmler?

He probably doesn't actively remember it all (though presumably it all is in his mind, somewhere). However, whatever Lash did regarding reading the book and processing it super fast, it was still Harry who had to cast the spell to reanimate Sue, so he presumably knows that much. Which is probably a fair amount, relatively speaking.

Kalas
04-21-2009, 04:13 PM
The necromancy spell had nothing to do with the Word of Kemmler. It was just a (beginner's) necromancy spell.

The Word detailed the Darkhallow, presumably the theory behind the Darkhallow and maybe some other high-level necromancy rituals/tricks. Dresden flipped through the book. That was in German. I doubt he remembers that much.

Realising how to use Necromancy against a blampire though? That's all Dresden.

Taure
04-21-2009, 05:12 PM
It was just a (beginner's) necromancy spell.


And how, other than from the Word of Kemmler, do you think he would know how to do such a spell?

All he knew about practical Necromancy prior to that was how to access the power of death.

Kalas
04-21-2009, 07:41 PM
Lash perhaps? I seem to remember Dresden mentioning it was more of a brute force spell as well. I just find it silly Taure to think that a small book written by the greatest Necromancer of recent memory, that details an actual Rite of Ascension, would also include Necromancy 101.

Ryuugi Shi
04-21-2009, 08:24 PM
And how, other than from the Word of Kemmler, do you think he would know how to do such a spell?

All he knew about practical Necromancy prior to that was how to access the power of death.

Well, technically, Harry knew how to preform basic Necromancy, and even described how to do it to Butter's. But he probably learned from the book.

CheddarTrek
04-22-2009, 02:49 AM
I love this entire series, latest addition is no exception.

The books are starting to get a bit different feel than they had near the start, where the grander schemes seems to be more vital to the plot, and I liked that. Especially since it's incorporating things from the earlier books as well.

I only recently found out about the short stories, and I was looking at Wikipedia to figure out where they fit in. Then I noticed that while the first 4-5 books each gave us a solid introduction to one type of enemy/ally/being (Harry himself and the style of magic in these books, Werewolves, Vampires, the Fey, the Denarians, etc.) the later books have had a tendency to incorporate all of them to some extent while adding in more and more plot lines tying into the grander metaplot.

I like it. I also like that you can see Harry getting stronger as the series goes by. He's visibly getting stronger, more precise, more knowledgable, etc. It's not something too rapid, it reads like the natural culmination of all the shit he's been going through. A lot of the stuff he was up to in Small Favor and Turn Coat I can't see him being as capable of in Storm Front.

So yeah, I'm glad to hear that there are supposed to be 20 books or so in this series. It's a damn shame they take a year to come out -- but then, that's actually a pretty damn good rate. I'm just impatient.

Ragon
04-22-2009, 03:09 AM
Harry from Storm Front would have been dead from shock when Morgan fell through his door.

Sagita
04-24-2009, 11:26 PM
I like it. I also like that you can see Harry getting stronger as the series goes by. He's visibly getting stronger, more precise, more knowledgable, etc. It's not something too rapid, it reads like the natural culmination of all the shit he's been going through. A lot of the stuff he was up to in Small Favor and Turn Coat I can't see him being as capable of in Storm Front.


Well, it is not just the shit they throw at him it is also the fact that each book is set a year apart from the other, more or less, which gives him plenty of time to get better, stronger and wiser.

Ragon
04-25-2009, 12:16 AM
When you think about it, most of the people Dresden has gone up against have been much older, more experienced, wiser, knew what was going on, and most were more powerful.

I would say the fact that he has managed to survive at all is a major testament to just how much he has changed since Storm Front.

Aurora, over half of the fallen angels at some point or another, Erlking, Justin, King Raith, Skinwalker, Peabody, THREE count em THREE fully trained necromancers, Cowl again, and Marva just to name a few.

Ryuugi Shi
04-25-2009, 02:51 AM
Lily

While he has indeed survived hanging out with Lily, I think you mean Aurora, as Lily's never tried to hurt Harry.

Ragon
04-25-2009, 10:08 AM
While he has indeed survived hanging out with Lily, I think you mean Aurora, as Lily's never tried to hurt Harry.

Yep my bad, had been up for like 36 hours and drinking for 4.

Grautry
04-28-2009, 07:55 AM
Well, technically, Harry knew how to preform basic Necromancy, and even described how to do it to Butter's. But he probably learned from the book.

Yep.

Harry described it as simple magic that required a lot of power(if I remember correctly) - something ideal for him.

Additionally, it was Halloween, Cowl was destroying the infrastructure, the city had a riot-happy/panicky atmosphere, the Wild Hunt was in town, the dark energies from the last few years were still around and so on and so forth.

It was absolutely the perfect night for Necromancy that you could find. I think that it even was outright said that on any other night, Harry probably wouldn't have been able to pull something like that off.

So a combination of the simplicity of the spell, Harry's talents for that kind of magic and massive environmental factors(the kind of environment that allowed for someone to pull enough dark energy to become a junior god a couple of hours later) resulted in Sue.

Sauce Bauss
07-03-2009, 03:20 PM
Something really bugs me. There is this "unknown" second traitor that was on Demonreach. Isn't Dresden omniscient on Demonreach? It should have been just "Oh, Peabody and (other traitor) are on the island." There should be no mystery with that.

fuubar
07-03-2009, 04:32 PM
The island just knew that there was a second person there, not who it was.

Ryuugi Shi
07-03-2009, 10:21 PM
I don't think Demonreach's knowledge pertains to things that happen outside of itself. It wasn't able to tell who framed Morgan, for example. And as the identity of the second traitor had little to do with what happened on Demonreach, it didn't know it.

Taure
07-04-2009, 02:41 AM
At most it would recognise their presence again. Maybe at a push know their face. But how would it know their name or who they were?

afrojack
07-04-2009, 05:03 PM
The island only registers presences IIRC. He knows how many people are on the island, and he uses other factors to determine who each of them is, but he has no way of knowing who the second traitor is. But would that serve to eliminate Ancient Mai as a suspect, since she was backing up Injun Joe at the time?

Samuel Black
07-05-2009, 02:19 AM
... Yes, Ancient Mai is no longer suspected as a traitor, because Peabody was brought out into the open.

afrojack
07-05-2009, 04:29 AM
Well, there were two traitors, so I was eliminating someone from the original pool of suspects that Harry and Eb had compiled. That second traitor is most likely someone new IMO, but it might still be one of the people from that first list. If I'm sounding like an idiot, forgive me. I only recently finished the series so far, haven't had a chance to go through again or anything like that.

Sauce Bauss
07-05-2009, 07:42 AM
I guess I was overestimating the abilities of the island. For some reason I thought it made Dresden Omniscient, or maybe even Omnipresent. He can "see" everything on the island, so while the island itself wouldn't recognize the traitor, He would.

One thing that supports the island being able to recognize people is that the GateKeeper was wary of setting foot there, because the island held a grudge. So it must have some way to identify individuals. However he has been there before so the other traitor wouldn't apply. :\

Midknight
07-05-2009, 08:24 PM
One thing that supports the island being able to recognize people is that the GateKeeper was wary of setting foot there, because the island held a grudge. So it must have some way to identify individuals. However he has been there before so the other traitor wouldn't apply. :\

2 good points.

afrojack
07-05-2009, 09:39 PM
Perhaps the island's grudge is specifically against the Gatekeeper, which is interesting for any number of reasons. Dresden describes the omniscience not as seeing them, but simply knowing that they're there. I think the island just registers the presence of human beings, much the way it'll tell him how many rabbits are on it or whatever. I can't be assed to go back and see if it ever tells him exactly who someone is, but that seems to be the case.

Ragon
07-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Im far more interested in the consequences for taking the island than the traitor personally. The island represents a serious gain for Dresden. If he does it right it could easily become a haven in times of desperation even more so than in Turn Coat. I doubt Mab, Titania, the Merlin, or anyone else with any serious importance is just going to let his claiming the island go unnoticed.

afrojack
07-07-2009, 03:11 PM
Not only that, but you know that was foreshadowing when the Gatekeeper mentioned the immense well of power. Just by mentioning it, he has made its (probably imminent) use inevitable. At some point, Harry is going to come across something that will make him think he needs to access the innate power of Demonreach, and he'll do it if it helps someone else. If the link between him and the island enables him to summon that power even when he isn't physically on the island, with the aid of Soulfire, we'll see him start to exercise powers in the realms of wizards centuries his elder, and perhaps even Senior Council status magic. That would put the fear into a great deal of enemies, which would make them try even harder to kill him.

CheddarTrek
07-07-2009, 06:13 PM
I'm just happy that the series is only just now hitting it's approximate halfway point. There's so much room for fun things to happen.

And yeah, Demonreach is going to be a nice trump card for Harry at some point. I can easily see Harry getting up into the "Senior Council" level as far as ability goes before the series ends.

It's great how this series has so many overarching themes and enemies in addition to the ones that are wrapped up within each book. Seriously kickass.

Jangel
07-08-2009, 12:43 AM
I just hope he doesn't run out of ideas/get dropped by publisher/die/start reusing central plots by the end.

Taure
07-08-2009, 06:32 AM
Not only that, but you know that was foreshadowing when the Gatekeeper mentioned the immense well of power. Just by mentioning it, he has made its (probably imminent) use inevitable. At some point, Harry is going to come across something that will make him think he needs to access the innate power of Demonreach, and he'll do it if it helps someone else. If the link between him and the island enables him to summon that power even when he isn't physically on the island, with the aid of Soulfire, we'll see him start to exercise powers in the realms of wizards centuries his elder, and perhaps even Senior Council status magic. That would put the fear into a great deal of enemies, which would make them try even harder to kill him.

Somehow I doubt this. Firstly, if it were that easy more people would be doing it.

Secondly, Harry already has the raw power needed to be in the Senior Council level. It's skill he lacks. Though of course more power would be a bonus. Thirdly, we have to remember Butcher's statement about Demonreach. I'm fairly sure that nothing good for Dresden is going to come of his being bonded with the island.

Remember: in the Dresdenverse, there's no such thing as an artificial powerboost that doesn't screw you over.

And I don't think he'd be able to use its power while off the island.

CheddarTrek
07-08-2009, 02:37 PM
Hrm. Is there canon evidence for Dresden already having the raw power needed for the Senior Council? I know it's been said that in raw power he ranks in the top 30 or 40 wizards worldwide, but I had the impression that while he was damn close to having their raw power he wasn't *quite* there. Maybe in another 5 years. The statement I'm quoting though could have been from an early book and therefore it's already been 5 years, I don't know.

That's almost irrelevant though, when compared to your next point Taure -- he lacks the skill to compete with them even if he had more raw power.

As for Demonreach, well, I'd agree he probably can't use the power while he's off the island, but considering how much power we might be talking about he could still use it to affect things off the island. I.e. He could hang out on the island and send curses and whatnot soaring off to other parts of the world. Sort of like McCoy sent a Satellite crashing down onto his target from some distance away. I also wonder if it might provide him with an increase in skill at using a large source of power once he starts playing around with it. That experience alone could go a long way towards getting him into Senior Council range even without a power boost.

Remember: in the Dresdenverse, there's no such thing as an artificial powerboost that doesn't screw you over. Thank goodness for good writing. I wonder about Soulfire though, since that was gifted to him and doesn't yet appear to have side effects. I hadn't thought about that until just now.

afrojack
07-08-2009, 02:43 PM
Well, Soulfire is a power he earned by "resisting" Lasciel, and was given to him by an archangel. My gut tells me that one was a gift.

As far as Demonreach goes, what I was saying was just a thought. But gaining its power isn't "that easy," because Dresden had to win the island over first in a test of wills, which most wizards would have lost. Yes, such a power would come at a price, but Dresden is willing to pay a lot when he feels there's no other option.

CheddarTrek
07-08-2009, 02:52 PM
Yeah, it's also my impression that he got Soulfire without any strings attached. He did earn that one. Rock on.

I had the impression that gaining it's power was "that easy." For Dresden at least. I don't know if it would have for anyone else. Dresden has some sort of screwy connection with things involving the Outside. I forget which book it was, but it was said at some point that he should not have been able to win the fight with the demon DuMorne sent after him, and that he only won because of something Maggie did.

Eh, I don't recall the specifics. But my impression here was that Demonreach was a lot wimpier in Dresden's case than he would have been in most others. I mean, seriously, the Gatekeeper could wipe the floor with Dresden before breakfast, but he's scared to set foot on the island? Because of Demonreach that Harry seemed to have relatively little trouble cowing? Something is off with that.

Taure
07-08-2009, 03:03 PM
but I had the impression that while he was damn close to having their raw power he wasn't *quite* there. Maybe in another 5 years

I thought that in the Dresdenverse raw power didn't change, just skill?

afrojack
07-08-2009, 03:46 PM
JB seems to explain it somewhat like a muscle. Dresden mentions that "for raw, brute strength" he was in the top 30 wizards on the planet, meaning he can sustain magic use for long periods of time, or pack a harder punch into something like an evocation, which is why he needs a focus (Staff, rod) to not injure himself.

Luccio mentions that even before her body change, she would still be less able to perform a certain spell than Harry. I can't recall the specifics, but it was something along the lines of pure magical grunt work, involving stamina that she doesn't have but Dresden does. But while claiming to have less of that type of strength than Harry, produces beams of fire so thin and dense that they act like lightsabers. He has more talent, more strength, but she has been working with her magic for much longer. Her mind has been channeling and forming it for centuries as opposed to Dresden's <40. Knowing where and how much force to apply making that much of a difference, and doing it that quickly (like in a spell) suggests that it's simply a result of how long someone has been doing the same task, like muscle memory. He keeps describing elder wizards as being able to get more strength out of less magic.

We hear him describe exhaustion on a consistent basis as well. All in all, it would seem like something you could continuously exercise and hone as you got older, to be stronger with less effort. Maybe performing magic, which seems to be a biological trait passed through mothers, is something like constantly training a, for lack of a better term, magical muscle. The body can be strengthened and geared towards a specific purpose, like a dance or a martial art. The mastery of something like that takes both skill and power, wherein the muscles, due to years of repetition, have learned not only the most powerful way to do something, but also the most precise and efficient way, while also allowing for the factor of natural talent like Dresden's. Perhaps complex, powerful wizardry would be a similar process, in that Dresden will get stronger as a result of acquiring more skill.

CheddarTrek
07-08-2009, 03:56 PM
Hm, for some reason I had the impression that as wizards got older their magic got stronger. Not just better or more skilled, but that the amount they could work with actually increased with age.

I'll have a look around the books this weekend and see if I can find some evidence either way. I've only read most of them once and it's been a while, and now I'm curious to see what's actually been said.

Cool.

afrojack
07-08-2009, 04:15 PM
When Dresden says he's using his will to perform a spell, he mentions the exchange of energy, saying that magic must come from somewhere, must be powered by something. But I doubt the energy of an effort of will is equivalent to huge blasts of fire. Being an older, more powerful wizard might just mean that greater focus results in stronger magic, or that a better thought out incantation or circle will result in a stronger spell. Rather than being exclusive traits, one leads to the other. The more skilled you are, the more power you will have at your disposal.

Euroclydon
07-08-2009, 04:42 PM
Dresden has some sort of screwy connection with things involving the Outside. I forget which book it was, but it was said at some point that he should not have been able to win the fight with the demon DuMorne sent after him, and that he only won because of something Maggie did.

White Knight, Lash told him when he was in The Deeps about to get roflrapped by Cowl/Some bad guy.

Ragon
07-08-2009, 05:41 PM
As for Demonreach, well, I'd agree he probably can't use the power while he's off the island, but considering how much power we might be talking about he could still use it to affect things off the island. I.e. He could hang out on the island and send curses and whatnot soaring off to other parts of the world.

This is similar to what I was thinking about. If he seriously stored supplies on the island in case of emergency and use it as a safe haven. On Demonreach Harry has a serious advantage against just about anyone, the skinwalker is an example. If they wanted him badly enough, the people Harry deals with are usually strong and arrogant enough to believe they can win no problem and would come after him. That would be a mistake on Demonreach.


On using the power of the island to effect stuff off the island, that Im not too sure about because of the water. Water has a nullifying effect on magic in Dresdenverse. So not to sure about how well it would carry over the water.

CheddarTrek
07-08-2009, 06:30 PM
On using the power of the island to effect stuff off the island, that Im not too sure about because of the water. Water has a nullifying effect on magic in Dresdenverse. So not to sure about how well it would carry over the water.

True, I hadn't thought of that. Very good point. It's still water though, not running, so that might matter? I can't recall if running water vs. still water matters in the Dresdenverse or not.

Kalas
07-08-2009, 09:18 PM
A lake the size of Lake Michigan has currents/undertows/tides/etc. seemingly making it 'running' water as Harry, notes in Small Favor, he'd have a hard time throwing together a fire spell over so much water.

Euroclydon
07-09-2009, 12:45 AM
If they wanted him badly enough, the people Harry deals with are usually strong and arrogant enough to believe they can win no problem and would come after him. That would be a mistake on Demonreach.



But usualy, he's out saving someone, not fighting off foes from his home turf.

Ragon
07-09-2009, 12:52 AM
Imagine if he had Kemeler's book now. And someone wanted it from him. Imagine taking Dresden on with the battlefield a place where nothing is hidden from Dresdenm where he knows everything about the battlefield

Midknight
07-09-2009, 01:20 AM
I wonder about Soulfire though, since that was gifted to him and doesn't yet appear to have side effects

It does, if he uses too much, he dies/loses his soul. As for how he cowed Demonreach, hell he used Soulfire, and he's up there in raw strength and will, throw in his whatever it is ability over Outsiders, and there ya go.

CheddarTrek
07-09-2009, 03:40 AM
Summary: Harry Dresden is infinitely cooler than Harry Potter and could kick his ass from Chicago to Britain and back. :awesome

But yeah, good point Mid. Using Soulfire is like actually turning a small part of his soul into power and combining it with his magic, so using it too much wouldn't work out very well. Nice reminder. I had also forgotten he used it when fighting Demonreach -- another excellent point.

I'm looking forward to the 6th and final book of Codex Alera, but in some ways I'm more excited to see if that means he'll put out 2 Dresden books a year after he's done there.

Midknight
07-11-2009, 06:22 PM
Come to think of it, he actually points on how it'd be impossible for him to do it without Soulfire, and it's the only thing that makes it kinda possible.

And yeah, needs moar Dresden, I can't get into Alera at all

Innomine
07-12-2009, 07:05 AM
I think I read one book of Alera, but never really followed on.

I cannot wait for the next Dresden book, but its gonna be a while. :(

Xantam
07-12-2009, 09:03 AM
I'm looking forward to the 6th and final book of Codex Alera, but in some ways I'm more excited to see if that means he'll put out 2 Dresden books a year after he's done there.
Yeah First Lord's Fury should be excellent, but I'm pretty sure Butcher has said that he has plans for another series to write alternating with Dresden so he does not get bored with Dresden and quality does not decrease.

CheddarTrek
07-12-2009, 02:21 PM
@Xantam -- Yeah, that makes sense. I read somewhere on his official forums his "list" of ideas for more book series. Most of them looked promising, and if I recall correctly one of them was a science fiction sort of thing.

As for not being able to get into Alera, well, I can see that. I mostly read the first two while I was travelling and it was that or nothing, and I really do think that they are better than 98% of fanfiction and more interesting than perhaps, say, 85% of real fiction.

I didn't feel like I "got into them" til about partway through the second book, and I thoroughly enjoyed the 4th and 5th books, so who knows. I still recommend them to people but I always sort of wondered if maybe his quality at the start of Alera suffered a bit because this was his "dream story" to write or whatever. *shrug*

Ragon
07-12-2009, 02:37 PM
The first 2 of the Alera books arent anything special. Its complicated. However if you get through to Cursor's Fury it really gets better. Captains Fury is still my favorite Butcher novel ever. The 5th book while not as good as Captains Fury is still better the Cursors Fury and much better than the first 2.

Fuegodefuerza
07-12-2009, 02:43 PM
Yeah, Alera's tough to get into. Thankfully most of us on here that have read them had a great support group in IRC :P that wouldn't let us stop in the first couple. Seriously, after the first two books, Alera is one of the best series I've ever read. In some aspects it's actually better than Dresden, and it's miles better than HP. Slog through the first couple books and wait for the world to get set up. Trust me, it's well, well worth it.

CheddarTrek
07-12-2009, 03:01 PM
*shakes head* Had a comment or two here (6th book Ragon? Out yet? Typo?) and some other things, but then... I realized this is the thread for discussion on not just the Dresden Files, but Turncoat in particular, so wow, getting off topic.

Speaking of Turncoat though, I just re-read it this week, along with a few of the earlier ones. Seriously good stuff. And yeah, Mid, he specifically said he used Soulfire, so that's how he managed Demonreach. Nice catch.

Whoop365
10-20-2011, 02:57 PM
Havent read put two pages...but i seriously doubt any of the senior council is black council....but its possible

The reason is that they were all being used by peabody...so then what? One member of the black council was using another? Would only make since if they planned on getting caught.

That doenst make any since.

and then its never sais Eb uses dark magic....he is just allowed to work outside the laws - per-say kill without a trial

he COULD use dark magic but i doubt it - because i doubt the council gives that position to someone that would use dark magic continuously and change over...

Xantam
10-20-2011, 03:07 PM
snip
First problem: Your spelling and grammar are atrocious.
Second problem: You're discussing spoilers in a thread that is two years old... Considering a newer book has already been released, it's a pretty irrelevant thread.

Aekiel
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
First off, improve your grammar. There are tons of primary school errors in your post that makes it a chore to read.

Secondly, I too doubt that any of the Senior Council are Black Hats, especially with Peabody's reveal. The entire reason the Senior Council was suspected to have a traitor was because of Peabody's actions. I can see the Merlin covertly approving the Grey Council's existence though.

Third, the Blackstaff protects the user from the corruptive effects of black magic. That means Ebenezar can break any one of the Laws and not feel the effects of it. Be that killing a person or enthralling them to his will. Of course the entire point of giving him the Blackstaff is that he's supposed to have the strength of character to withstand the temptation and not use it to form his own personal army.

Chengar Qordath
10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
Well, Cristos might or might not be Black Council, but then that's an issue that post-dates Peabody's actions. Since Peabody accounts for all the leaks from the Senior Council, odds are he was the only BC agent there at the time he was active.

However, on the matter of "Peabody wouldn't manipulate/mind whammy another BC member," it seems likely to me that the Black Council runs on a cell organization instead of spreading its member list around. It's standard procedure for any sort of underground/infiltration group to make sure that one of their agents can't ruin the entire operation if he gets captured and interrogated (especially since the Blackstaff has ways to make him talk). Plus, it would be rather conspicuous if Peabody manipulated everyone except one or two highly-placed agents. Also, having mind control influence over other BC members would no doubt be useful in whatever BC internal politics are going on behind the scenes (Obviously we don't know what kind of internal politics the BC has, but it is a safe bet that there is some level of maneuvering for power/influence).

Oh, and I'll add to the obligatory 'don't necropost, and learn better spelling/grammar' dogpile (though being non-native speaker of English might earn a slight reprieve). The forum has a spellchecker for a reason.

Agayek
10-20-2011, 05:39 PM
OK, this contributes absolutely nothing to the thread, but I gotta say it. Changar, your new avatar is creeping me the fuck out. I feel like she wants to eat my soul after coating it in applesauce. Somebody make it stop.

Antivash
10-20-2011, 06:03 PM
OK, this contributes absolutely nothing to the thread, but I gotta say it. Changar, your new avatar is creeping me the fuck out. I feel like she wants to eat my soul after coating it in applesauce. Somebody make it stop.
Finally someone understands how I feel! :foreveralone

Seriously, though. Stop trying to eat my soul, Chengar Qordath.

Chengar Qordath
10-20-2011, 10:15 PM
But souls are so crunchy and delicious...

Antivash
10-20-2011, 11:44 PM
But souls are so crunchy and delicious...
You realize, being ginger, I dont actually have one, right? D:

Chengar Qordath
10-21-2011, 12:12 AM
You realize, being ginger, I dont actually have one, right? D:
If you don't have a soul, then why worry about the fact that my avatar is apparently wants to eat souls?

Agayek
10-21-2011, 01:07 AM
It's a public service thing, I imagine.

Churchey
10-21-2011, 01:52 AM
Perhaps it's because he can't permanently scar the souls of his readers if you run around eating them?

Chengar Qordath
10-21-2011, 02:13 AM
Perhaps it's because he can't permanently scar the souls of his readers if you run around eating them?
That's much more believable than the idea that his motives are entirely altruistic.

Antivash
10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
;-; Fuck you guys. D: I don't have to take this shit! I banz u all now, k? K!