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Discussion about the cliffhanger in Changes

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Innomine, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. Scrittore

    Scrittore Groundskeeper

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    Changes was a amazing novel and it's going to suck to have to wait a couple more months. I'm personally interested in seeing just how Butcher plans on bringing Harry back to life.

    Not sure if it makes a difference, but I do remember Butcher stating somewhere (think it was in a Q&A) that Changes is the halfway point in The Dresden Files.
     
  2. Oz

    Oz For Zombie. Moderator DLP Supporter

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    omg it's Scrittore wtf?

    And I have no idea if anyone else has said this/thought of it, but I have this strange feeling that Fix was the one to kill Harry. 'twould be the smart thing to do seeing as they're rival Knights and all. And even if it weren't him, I can see him gunning for Harry once he comes back if he's still the Winter Knight.
     
  3. Scrittore

    Scrittore Groundskeeper

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    :eek: A Wild Scrittore appears.

    As for Fix, if you recall in their last meeting, he did bring a gun with him.
     
  4. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    In order to bypass Titania's orders and 'threaten' the Winter Emissary while passing on a bit of helpful information. I thought everyone knew this o_O.
     
  5. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Lots of possibles. As much as I've thought about it I haven't come up with a good theory on who it was.

    Fix? Sure. He's said before that if Harry was the Winter Knight he'd be scared shitless and outclassed. At this point too he'd be fundamentally inclined to think of Harry as being on "the other side." I don't really think it was him though, since he and Harry are friends more or less, but there's a chance. Alternatively it could be Titania somehow, but that seems pretty far out there. Though she does have a beef with Harry, and she could touch him now as he's part of the courts.

    The Eebs? Again, sure. As far as we know they're dead along with the Red Court, but then again the last time they were seen was in the Nevernever with the Earlking. Now, what i'm about to say might not still be relevant, but I'm pretty sure that someone told Harry the same spell the Reds were using was the one from Storm Front (only infinitely more powerful). I also recall that in Storm Front Harry seemed to think he could avoid the curse by fleeing to the Nevernever (which at the time he was hesitant to do). Now he could have been wrong about avoiding it that way, especially a more powerful one, but if it is possible... then it's also possible the Eebs survived. And drive by shootings are their thing. Unlikely though.

    Kincaid? Another good possibility. Harry was killed more or less exactly how Kincaid said he would do it.

    Marcone? Denarians? White Council? I don't see any clear reasons for any of these to go about killing Harry like this. Marcone is usually on his side lately, the Denarians want Harry as one of them, and the WC probably wouldn't think of using a gun like that. Hmm, but maybe in a week we'll see if the person Marcone is having murdered in his short story is named Harry. Probably not, but hmmm.

    White Court and Black Court aren't really great options either.

    Lea? I doubt she could go directly against Mab, but if she saw preventing him from becoming the WK as a requirement of her bargain with Margaret LeFey to keep Harry safe... Even still, it'd be hard for her to go against Mab (if possible at all), though she did warn Harry not to let Mab bring him to the stone table so she clearly thought it a bad idea at some point. Alternatively it could be Mab exploiting him in some way, but that's really far-fetched.

    Here's one I haven't thought of -- maybe Arianna hired more than one shooter to go after Harry when she was pretending to be Susan. Maybe this one didn't catch up to Harry til a couple of days later.

    Otherwise, hell, I don't know. Fix and Kincaid seem like the most obvious choices, but I can't really see it being either of them at the same time.

    Speaking of Harry's death -- I was re-reading again and in one of the books Lash tells Harry that to understand something he'd have to die. She implied it was a lot more complicated than that, but whatever it was Harry needed to die to understand... is about to be understood.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
  6. Scrittore

    Scrittore Groundskeeper

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    I highly doubt it's Kincaid. If only because Ivy would be pissed beyond measure at him for killing Dresden.
     
  7. fuubar

    fuubar Headmaster

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    In some ways I find Lea to be at the top of the list of suspects. Way back before Mab expressed an interest in having Harry as her Knight, Lea warned him to never let her take him to the stone table. Since we don't really know what the deal between Margaret and Lea was, I'm thinking that this might somehow be related. And as we all know just how loosely Lea can interpret some parts of said deal...
     
  8. I Burn Water

    I Burn Water Seventh Year

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    Good point

    Perhaps instead of being in a different plane, he's just on a different magical "frequency" than that of the typical imprint that is the common ghost of the Dresdenverse, yet still tied to the physical plane to separate him from the actual dparted souls. So wizards and magic users that actively sought his spirit wouldn't know how or even be able to look for him.

    Only a lucky few that are powerful enough to be able to perceive the larger magical spectrum could see or feel him, or maybe it's those more attuned or specialized to the dead.

    Harry would still be in death alone, but it would allow for people to have the slightest chance to interact with him.

    Harry did say at one point that Cassius's curse was probably gonna act in an unpredictable way because he couldn't tell the intent of the curse. Plus I'm gonna say that Cassius is smart enough to realize that Harry isn't afraid to die, even if it is alone. He wouldn't want to waste his ultimate revenge curse on something that has the slightest chance of not having a significant impact.

    Went and read small favor and turn coat again, not a mention of the death curse, so I have good feeling that it's gonna have something to do with the next book apart from the obvious, even if my theory is totally off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
  9. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I've been thinking about Cassius' death curse and I think I've come up with a simple, elegant solution to what he possibly meant. By die alone he meant Harry would die without a Fallen in his head.

    Look at the evidence for it: In Death Masks Cassius loses his coin, gives it up in fact, and cannot take another coin to replace it. He obsesses about acquiring a new coin, as evidenced by his multiple attacks on Harry in Dead Beat and the search for the coin therein. Most of his life up to the point he lost the coin had been centred around being one of the Denarians. He was one of Nicodemus' most trusted henchmen. Then he loses it and his body starts to decay, rapidly.

    So he's dying because he doesn't have a coin to rejuvenate him. He knows Harry has a coin, even if he doesn't know where it is, and his only chance to survive is to kill Harry and take Lasciel. So when that plan falls apart and he knows he's going to die, what part of Harry is he most likely to attack with his final curse? I'd say it's a pretty good bet that he's going to target the thing he's most obsessed with. I.e. Lasciel, thus possibly hastening Lash's redemption and eventual sacrifice in White Night.

    What do you guys think?
     
  10. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I like it Aekiel. It's simple, elegant, and it works for the character in question.

    I had always thought it weird that Cassius would attack Harry by trying to prevent him from having family/friends/whatever when he died, because Cassius had no way of knowing how hard that would hit Harry (that we know of anyway, unless he researched some of Harry's past).

    This makes more sense.

    @IBW - I don't recall him thinking that the curse would act in an unpredictable way, but I could be forgetting. Good points though.

    @Scrittore - Yeah, Ivy would be pissed as hell. But Kincaid has been around a hell of a long time and first and foremost he's a mercenary. I don't think it's him either, because he could always just refuse to take the job offered to him, but if someone could convince him to accept the job he'd get it done.
     
  11. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I don't believe Kincaid did it solely because Harry wasn't headshotted. Kincaid has supernatural aiming skills, to the point where he can headshot several Denarians in a combat environment while remaining hidden. So what are the chances of him missing a guy standing on a boat? Centre mass shots give the target enough time to cast a Death Curse, if they realise what is happening, and Kincaid isn't the type to take that risk when it comes to a Wizard of Harry Dresden's calibre.
     
  12. J22

    J22 Seventh Year

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    But didn't Harry get shot in the heart? It said to the left of the sternum or something similar. Just as bad really. Plus he had no idea who did it so no idea where to aim the death curse.

    Also, I hit up Google Maps on a hunch and it turns out there's a subway line running right next to Graceland cemetary (where Harry's grave is located). Likely the train mentioned at the end.
     
  13. Scrittore

    Scrittore Groundskeeper

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    "I looked down at a hole in my shirt, just to the left of my sternum."

    I still don't think Kincaid did it. There's no motive for him to do so, and no job is worth the ire of Ivy. Plus, if I recall correctly, he and Ivy helped Dresden in Changes.

    Though maybe I read it in another book of some sort, but I recall Kincaid saying that the day he would want Dresden dead, he'd never see it coming or something like that.
     
  14. fuubar

    fuubar Headmaster

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    @Aekiel: Also, remember in Small Favor when his left hand suddenly manages to work perfectly, without any input from him, and snags a Denarius out of mid air right before it touches him? Something strange going on there, and it being a result of Cassius' death curse is one of the better explanations that I've heard for it.
     
  15. w1lliam

    w1lliam Groundskeeper

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    @Aekiel, @fuubar: Thats shockingly simple and yet i cant find anything wrong with it
     
  16. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Pretty much exactly what this ^ guy said.

    This is the first option for the explanation that i've actually liked. The rest were just speculation, really, this does kinda fit.
     
  17. I Burn Water

    I Burn Water Seventh Year

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    *Insert Guiness Commercial* BRILLIANT!
     
  18. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Aekiel = PirateJack?
    If not then I'm curious who did post this on the official Jim Butcher forums. For that matter the post on the JB forums goes into a bit more detail, if anyone is curious and wants to check it out.

    It is an awesome theory!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  19. Phantom of the Library

    Phantom of the Library Unspeakable

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    So, unrelated to what Aekiel said, which was really awesome, I've been thinking about why Harry doesn't just die.

    I've been trying to find the exact quote, but it's proving more difficult than anticipated. I believe in book 9 when Harry's dad visits him while he's unconscious, Malcolm says it's really him, not just a ghost.

    Now, we really don't know a lot about Malcolm, but we've recently learned a bit about Maggie. Most importantly, we know she was a human Wizard.

    But in Blood Rites, Kincaid says, "I'm just as human as you are."

    I know it could have just been Kincaid messing with him, but I don't think Butcher would have dropped that in a book and just say, 'lol jking.'

    This is pure speculation, but maybe Malcolm isn't the vanilla human he's portrayed to be. We do know that his death may have been a murder, and not natural.

    Maybe because he's not human, he doesn't move on to the afterlife. And maybe, that's why Harry doesn't either.
     
  20. Tehan

    Tehan Avatar of Khorne DLP Supporter

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    Few different ways to consider that. Maybe he doesn't count 'wizard' as 'human', and therefore Harry, being half-Wizard, is just as human as Kincaid. Or maybe he's playing his alleged demonic heritage close to his chest. Or maybe Ebenezar is mistaken, and instead of being half-demon, Kincaid was a talented mercenary (or a lab experiment) empowered by the original Drakul - which, to a certain frame of mind, would make him just as human as someone that's turned into a wolf and played host to a Denarian.

    And Malcolm visiting Harry might just be Upstairs playing a part. Since he's been mucked with by all manner of Denarians as well as Uriel, he's pretty much fair game for celestial meddling.
     
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