Sorry, not meaning to make it personal. Could have chosen better wording for the first part of that post, looking back on it now. I just wanted to explain my position because this is quite an interesting discussion to me. You have basically the exact opposite standpoint to me and that's simply fascinating.

 

When I say that they should be involved in canon events or with canon characters, I meant to include changing those things. If they never touch each other, then canon can't really be affected.

And your point about it being possible is true, but at that point it may as well be original fiction, especially if the author is talented enough to pull it off.

 

I think we should stop trying to convince each other to adopt the other's views. Particularly since its clear by now that the reason you like SIs is the exact reason why I hate them. I was trying to find a middle ground where they might be acceptable to people like me who have a problem with it.

---------- Post automerged at 07:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

We'll have to agree to disagree there. An original story set in the Naruto universe isn't as outlandish an idea as you believe.
A lot of them are nothing like the canon except for the characters. Shezza's stories are prime examples.
His ANBU Naruto tale has nothing in common with the canon and he has done a fabulous job of it. Naruto there might as well be an OC.

 

I suppose worldbuilding could use an SI. As in "what if a person from this world (real life) had to life in this other world (insert fictional world)?"
Most SIs I've seen gloss over that in a single paragraph of "most fans would have been exited, but I knew how bullshit dangerous and stuff it was", but I'm sure you could handle that in a more classy manner.

 

I don't think I will ever write an SI. I'm open to reading them, but writing them is where I draw the line. Still your faith in my abilities is extremely flattering.

 

Crimson, ok, I see what you mean. The way I see it, even AU fics borrow from canon characters and plot, so I didn't really think that's what you were referring to. But since it was, yeah, I agree completely that those types of stories have the potential to be good.

And now I'm curious, have you tried What Doesn't Kill You? It's probably the best SI I've seen and it does an excellent good job of avoiding canon rehash.

 

I really don't like reading stories centred around OCs. It is a personal peeve of mine. It is totally irrational so I can't explain it either. The only reason I read Vapors was due to all the debate it was generating and curiosity getting the better of me. Still if I ever feel like reading another story based on an SI, your recommendation will be on the top of my list.

 

Been busy moving house, so missed a lot of the discussion so far. Some great points, particularly CheddarTrek and Perspicacity's posts.

I've been thinking about the topic of SI's for a while and what makes me enjoy them. Over the past year there have been several SI fics I've tried and I've absolutely loved them - In Bad Faith (HP), Dreaming of Sunshine, Reincarnation Roulette, Vapors and just last night, What Doesn't Kill You. So what is it about these that attracts me so much? Here's some random (and not particularly well structured) points on what I think works well in SIs and why they're interesting in the first place (for me).

1. It is something that feels new (to me). I've been reading HP and Naruto fanfics since 2006. Nine years. In that time I've read a lot to have explored most of the same concepts, same ideas and different sorts of executions. Even if something is executed well, I struggle to stay interested. Most of the fics in those fandoms I still enjoy are things that are either a bit different by focusing on different characters, or just fics that are just a bit of fun and don't take themselves too seriously. SI/OC centric fics allow you explore similar concepts that you've well exhausted. They're basically a cross between Indy!Protagonist and TimeTravel!Protagonist fics. And yet, they feel new and interesting.

2. ...And yet it's still familiar. I have less interest of reading about a Naruto SI growing up in some completely OC village filled with OC characters. Why do we read fanfiction? It's because we know the characters, we know what's to come and we get excited to see how the events are confronted with the changes we're reading. Reading original fiction is so much harder. It takes a while for you to really feel comfortable in a new universe, and this is the same thing with SI/OC fics that just adopt the universe and not the canon characters/some semblance of the plot too.

3. All the SI fics I've read an enjoyed have a similar starting point - an adult in newborn baby's body. Most of the SI summary's you read, the ones that seem more like wish fulfillment, advertise themselves something like "I get sucked into the Naruto universe". As an adult teen. The issue then is the main character either: a) Just throws around their knowledge to change everything in the world, b) for some reason manages to befriend ALL the main characters who she/he can then manipulate to fix everything, c) because of no reason at all, they are super strong/talented.

The benefit of being reborn as a baby? It allows them to retain their existing knowledge/worldview/personality while giving them a chance to grow up and develop in that world. They can pick up things a lot faster than others, and use their different world view to their advantage. But it also allows them to have a potential flaw - they're not super talented or anything. They're relying purely on being older, smarter and more mature not on actually being naturally powerful.

4. I really, really like reading female protagonists for some reason. I do also love fanfics using canon female characters. Applied Cultural Anthropology in the HP universe, Loyalty and Time Braid from Naruto. But to be honest, most of the female canon characters don't interest me all that much. Yes, you can change her back story and personality, but there's still some sort of fandom impression you have of them, some familiarity that doesn't go away as easily.

5. As a lot of people have said, the best SIs come from having their own story. If they steal the thunder from the main character, well, it just feels silly and like wish fulfillment. If they just remain a side character to the main character, well, what's the point? Have their own story. Keep the main characters strong and heroic, and have them still triumph in their own adventures, but do it separately. Keep them apart as much as possible. Dreaming of Sunshine went down when it started trying to follow the canon plot too much (and trying to do all the fillers >_>).

6. It gives you a bit more ability to separate a character's personality from back story. Take In Bad Faith. It's about an SI who grows up as Draco Malfoy's sister. In a racist, snobby home you'd expect a like character. By using a character from a very different background, you have a good excuse for them to have different views. The best part of that story is seeing how she interacts with her family with those differences in ideals, and even which ideals she even decides to adopt.

7. That exploration into how someone from our safe world deals with their fucked up one. A lot of the points above can be solved with a crossover, but unless you plan to do a crossover with some random sitcom/comedy/slice of life/drama set in the modern day (ermm, all those Glee crossovers you see), you don't get to explore this concept of how a normal, regular person deals with this new world.

To be honest, this is something that I feel those Naruto SIs can do better. In both DoS and Vapors, the story pretty much treats them just as OC characters instead of SI characters. It's a starting point for them, and a reason for them to know the future, but apart from that? They may well have grown up there. What Doesn't Kill You did it pretty well, where Aoi just feels resentment and detachment from the world, and for most of it just wants to focus on surviving herself. It's an interesting inner conflict for her. Vapors tried to do it, but come on, as if Aiko can keep claiming she cares nothing about Konoha. Aoi also retains her interest/skill/methodology of approaching chakra from the point of view of a former medical student.

8. So....why SI? Why not just a random dude from our world, why you? If it's because the author wants to imagine themselves getting it on with Kakashi, while punching Orochimaru in the face and telling Dumbledore he's a manipulative arsehole, well, it's probably a terrible reason. Really, if you're going to choose a character from this world, instead of trying to make up an elaborate back story of some boring, average person (who will probably end up like you in the end anyway), just use your own or something similar. Everyone is going to assume it's an SI even if it isn't (and who's to say all those fics actually are?)

9. The lack of emotional connection with everyone. You get Sakura to travel back in time with her future forewarning? She comes back to save her friends who she's already close to. You see random SI go to universe with future knowledge? He only knows these characters from a screen. There's a few ways that can be played, but I like that in Vapors and What Doesn't Kill You, the characters just try to isolate themselves from everyone.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the SI genre. I'm sure once I read a few more this will begin to bore me too. It does seem like DoS started a bit of a fad.


tl;dr: Well, you probably didn't miss anything interesting. Just another one of my rants. >_>


And just to second that recc again, definitely give What Doesn't Kill You a go. It's a lot shorter than Vapors and DoS, but it's had some fantastic character development so far.

Spoiler

I love that Aoi only just now decided that she should/could actually use her knowledge to help people, rather than selfishly just trying to avoid the Plot and anything dangerous. The main downside of this fic is all the side characters are pretty dull. Vapors was so fun because of Aiko's interactions with everyone. In What Doesn't Kill You, the only interactions I really find enjoyable to read are those with Hana, and they're nothing really special.

 

Agree with Jarik on most of this.

On "What Doesn't Kill You"

Spoiler

Well, it's decent, a fun read and it had a few interesting ideas. It's really kind of a middle thing between Vapors and Dreaming of Sunshine, where it doesn't quite have a protag who is merely another genin, albeit one with a much wider skillset like in DOS, but also not a person so much larger than life as in Vapors. So, we see a different team, different situations and I quite like the approach that is basically "fuck this, I wanna live".

But I have to say, the first chapter was the highlight for me. The home situation of having a mother afraid of her child because the baby is just so strange, so different, so spooky, was a much more interesting plot hook than another orphan who has issues with one of the big bads of the setting. Kinda wanted to see more of that, with how that relationship would develop, where the parent still loves her child but is also immensely scared by what that child is and just doesn't know how to deal with that. TO have the mother killed in chapter 2 was just jarring.

As to the rest, Aoi is an interesting character and the execution so far has been decent. Am not so glad Aoi has decided to take up Konoha's cause, I really want to see an SI who actually manages to distance themselves from Konoha, without getting sucked in.

To the side characters, yeah, her team is just bland, that "rivalry" with Neji is hardly an issue since Neji is basically nothing to her, in that she doesn't give a damn about it, and Hana is a bit interesting but mostly a mouthpiece and really feels like another SI who has been dropped in to bring a more modern mindset into things. The villages had child soldiers since its inception and even before you had young killers, why is she so surprised that is going on?

The Hinata relationship is probably my favourite there, as that is truly the only solid bond there is an even that one is skewed with Aoi basically exploiting Hinata but growing fond of her, despite herself. Really want to see that friendship developing more.

But yeah, worth checking out

 

Sadly, it was doomed from the start in that regard considering Silver Queen's objective was to create a realistic SI to explore the what's, how's and why's of the canon world instead of diverge from said world. Which perhaps wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't using anime canon.

 

Now I remember why I stopped reading DoS. It was following the fillers and the movies. Was that a bad move or what??

 

Agreed. Canon rehashes are boring no matter what premise you start with.

 

Eh, it's had its ups and downs. The point, as far as I can tell, was to use the filler stuff to give Shikako a foundation to be strong enough to handle everything that happens after the time-skip. I don't think it was really needed, everything could have been explained away as "she trained like a motherfucker", but it works for what it is.

The writing quality is still good. I usually just wait for whatever the current filler arc the author is on to finish, and then binge those chapters in one shot. Makes it easier to follow that way.

 

What I find curious about SIs: You know, how we are a site dedicated to one fandom but branching out in many many others? And we have dozens upon dozens of threads on why didn't the protag just...? Or Dumbledore is so evil...? Or Dresden should really get his dick wet... They kinda come down to how we would respond in a similar situation, whether we're honest about it or not is another topic.

So what I find interesting is, say, what if Aekiel was a character in Naruto? How would he screw with things since he already knows what's up and has strong opinions, etc.

Generally this devolves into Aekiel getting with Sakura, Ino, ensuring his OTP, and then killing Obito. And I forgive him, because even though he made himself a harem king, he did kill Obito, and I really wanted to see that. Plus he's a bro, and so, him becoming a harem king is kinda nice. The bastard.


Any who, Vapors, I x'd out of that story when Aiko didn't seem to be having any affect on Naruto's development as a character. It was like Naruto was still hardcore wanna-be-hokage when she was very suspicious of that whole thing. Does that ever change? Like does she have an impact on canon or is it just canon + Aiko. Or Akio. Whatever.

 

Love you too, Nuhuh.

---------- Post automerged at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

She has a huge effect, but only really after she graduates from the academy. It diverges even more during the Chuunin Exams, though there are some things that don't change (usually things that Aiko has no control over like the Eye of the Moon Plan and the initial forays of Akatsuki).

 

Don't think you can call the 'fillers' canon. They're called fillers for a reason. And they SUCKED. They put me off animes permanently and not just Naruto.

 

They are canon in the sense that it's stuff that has happened in the official source material and thus have been experienced by the readers before. Now, they may or may not count for the manga timeline, i.e, not canon, as things that have happened in them have no bearing on the plot there, nor are they referenced, but they are still things that have happened. So, if they appear in fanfics, it is still a rehash, even if they are technically not canon. They don't really, at least from what I have seen, contradict canon, they are just ignored by it.

All that said, I didn't mind the rehash in DoS because it managed to truly construct a coherent Naruto world and used a lot of the information from both, fillers and end of the manga, to flesh out the ninja society and history. In the manga, we learned several things over time for story telling reasons, be it for good or bad, that should have been obvious before. DoS doses that and incorporates these things into a really well realized world. Stuff like the stretches, the comparison to the Raikage and whatnot. The little things making the setting work that much better. I just wish it wouldn't try to include every single filler arc.

Speaking of SI's, there is a way of writing them that really makes me click the x button pretty fast, and it is one that I really only encountered on spacebattles, where the SIs, landing in the Wormverse, are all pretty arrogant. It's not like Vapors and stuff, where the SI really isn't the author themselves but rather an OC who just has knowledge on the setting and is born with an adults mind into a babies body.

Here, I believe the authors think the SI's are them. They are people who got dumped into the Wormverse, with powers, and immediately start planning, stating how much better they are going to be at this, knowing what to do and what not to do. Stating things like knowing which stupid things to avoid and such.

It's really arrogant and conceited. Like I am going to believe that the author really would be armchairgeneraling right away, planning to take down Coil not even an hour after suddenly appearing in the Wormverse. Yeah, right.

Or contacting Tattletale, meeting her, slapping her and pretty much dictating how she should act and how the SI knows better, conceitedly referring to her as smart girl when she is silent.

Didn't read further, all I could stomach. So, yeah, that sort of SI, I really can't stand.

It's really all in the tone. Hashashin's SI story that he just started doesn't trample around so arrogantly, thinking how much better he is than the other characters in the setting, simply because he has way more information at hand. Also, that character reacts like a real person, similar to those in DoS and Vapors. That being in this situation is actually a big deal, that takes time getting used to. You don't just wake up in a horrible place like Worm,say a half-hearted "this sucks", rub you hands together and start masterplanning.

Basically, the same argument as to not outshine the main characters, at least not in a "wow, I am so much better" way.

 

I really want to read a story where all this happens, and it bites the SI in the ass.

Oh, you started planning to deal with Coil? Tortured for information, then executed.

Smacking Tattletale around? She plots your demise, probably by way of Coil. After she wrings everything out of you.

Start trying to really armchair the world to beat Scion? Contessa catches you, and bad stuff happens.

Try and outfox the S9? Jack is amused for maybe a second, then gives you to Bonesaw. Have fun being a monster and not having any control over your body!

 

This thread started with a post I made in a different thread. I wasn't the one who initially derailed that conversation, but it still says something which probably isn't flattering.

And at the risk of derailing this thread, I want to explore a point that keeps coming up when I ask about the appeal of the SI-OC: many of you are raising the point that when done "right" sense of newness without a complete re-imagining the characters/setting. The reason I was doing nothing but ask questions a few pages back might now become a bit more clear.

I don't think anyone is arguing that SI-OC's are evil. In some corners -- mine being one of the them -- there's perhaps a bit of confusion over their sudden popularity. I understand, of course, that Dreaming of Sunshine showed FFnet how to actually write a SI-OC in the Narutoverse and make a good read out of it. Nonetheless, it strikes me as more than a bit odd that given such a fertile playground, the best we can come up with are waves after waves of time travel and SI-OC stories. (Actually, not quite true -- the true standouts of this fandom, Hurricane Suite, Life in Konoha's ANBU, The Howling Winds, etc., are neither.)

With regards to this point about the sense of newness of SI-OC fics, a point I want to raise is that there are still many ideas which have never been implemented. Not to mention that the tone of the story is very important in shaping the content. You can tell the a scene from canon all over again but if you give us a different perspective, e.g. Naruto's fear when facing down Mizuki, you can bring it to life in a distinctly new way. Likewise, the content should work to help set the tone. If you want to have Naruto fight Mizuki and really hit home with a sense of fear, I'd strongly suggest changing the dialogue and the flow of the scene.

Let me pull another example from a story I started writing a few weeks ago (though it's unlikely to ever see the light of day -- and please, if this idea is appealing don't hesitate to steal it):

In this story students enter the academy between their 6th and 7th birthdays. The curriculum is set so that students are potentially ready to graduate after 6 years at the academy. In their sixth year, students must pass a few preliminary exams demonstrating their talent and capability before they may take an exam for placement under a jounin sensei. (Those that fail, either the preliminary or final exam, have until their 10th year at the academy to graduate. Failure to graduate at that time means expulsion from the program.)

The final exam is this: a jounin makes one Kage Bunshin for every gennin in the room. On average there are about 30 students, all age 12, meaning that each clone has about 3 percent of the original's chakra. The jounin is also somewhat limited in which moves he/she is allowed to use. To pass the exam, a gennin must eliminate one of the jounin's KB's and then return to the classroom before the time limit expires. The difficulty is that each time a KB is destroyed, the remaining chakra returns to the remaining clones. The longer you take to track down and kill a clone, the harder your fight becomes. Only the students who pass this exam will get a jounin sensei; others who graduate later will still become ninjas of the village but will not have a jounin sensei.

And idea like this sets a different tone and allows you to do new things with the characters. I particularly enjoyed writing Sasuke because he's a self-centered dick who tried to kill as many clones as possible just so he could measure himself. And he was talented enough to get two of them (though in fairness, I tried to portray KB more realistically; fighting with only three percent of your chakra is ill-advised even for the strongest of shinobi). It also allows me to make the story a touch darker and more serious. Think about the kind of Konoha that adopts such a system. It's not like the Bloody Mist -- nobody's dying and the failures will still have a chance to become ninjas -- but there's undeniably a darker element to the nature of the test. There's a sense of pressure as you read through the various fights the rookies have, because whenever one fails you don't know if they're going to make it on their next chance or even have a next chance at all (hint: not all do).

Let me return to my original point: I think the sense of newness in SI's is a bit illusory. In many cases, the story still persists in a manner similar to canon. You have this SI-OC with foreknowledge in a position where they can influence main characters directly and yet the same key events all happen in more or less the same way. That can be somewhat justified in certain cases, e.g. with the chuunin exams and subsequent invasion, but get's really ridiculous when, for example, Wave Country arc happens... at all. What are the chances of getting that mission just randomly? How numerous are the SI-OC stories that avoid it? Two?

I also hold firm that there are ideas left untouched. There are ways to come up with completely new story arcs that still capture the feeling of canon without rehashing canon at all. Just as an example, I really liked the chuunin exams from Better Left Unsaid. I also really liked the exams in Tale of the Setting Sun. Completely new stuff, but the overall feeling of the world and (in most cases) the characters is preserved.

 

SI-OCs have always been popular, common fics in every fandom as far as I know. They're usually just terrible wish fulfillment. If you mean why are Naruto SI-OCs getting popular right now I'd say its probably because of the success of these quality SI fics that we've been discussing, Vapors, Dreaming of Sunshine, etc. Whether or not you like these fics, you cannot argue with the fact that they are probably among the best SI stories, perhaps the first ones that actually approach the level of being a 4 or 5 star fic in the Naruto fandom. Seeing these has probably catalyzed some people to write SIs with actual interesting twists or get good writers who don't write wish fulfillment to think about writing one.