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Oh the WHOmanity!?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Jon, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Mab says that the one performing the full Darkhallow would gain more power than any mortal in the "memory of the race". So clearly it has never been performed, except maybe in prehistory.

    Butcher also said that the Sidhe (Mab,Titania,etc) gained their powers in an ascension rite vaguely similar to the Darkhallow. And apparently more primitive versions of the DH have been done. I think the jungle comic dealt with that. Hecate apparently did one of those and became a (lesser) god.


    Butcher about Cowl:
     
  2. JohnThePyro

    JohnThePyro Headmaster

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    That's a possibility. Cowl also states in Dead Beat (paraphrase) that essentially he's doing it because if he doesn't, one of the other kremmler brats will. Not exactly brilliant logic considering he probably could have whooped said brats with ease, but maybe he felt he needed some kind of moral justification to kill that many people?
     
  3. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    It would of been pretty impossible to find the required sacrifices until recently anyway, wouldn't it?

    I mean, Chicago has what? 2-3 million people? Would of been pretty hard to find congregations of that many people a couple of centuries ago. That could be one of the main reasons a full darkhallow rite has never been accomplished.
     
  4. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    What sacrifices? The darkhallow as described by Mab anyway does not require any human sacrifices at all.

    I mean I am pretty sure that the idea behind to rite was to eat the essence of spirits. That is to say dead ghosts. It does not eat the living people so their presence is not required.

    The fact that everyone around the rite would die is apparently a side effect. So I figure if you managed to find a place with lots and lots of spirits and no people, you could perform the rite and minimize the casualties. If you cared to anyway, most necromancers dont.
     
  5. Brown

    Brown Third Year

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    Yes, but consider the effect of population growth and concentration on the number of ghosts. A city of twenty thousand that's been around for two hundred years might only have eighty thousand dead people in the ground, and what fraction of those became ghosts? But a city of ten or twenty millions has many more dead people, and many more ghosts; and they're concentrated in a relatively small geographic area.
     
  6. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Yes, but if you were to use, say, the remains of a Nazi concentration camp, where millions of people had died, and there's a decent chance at least a majority remained behind as malevolent/angry spirits, with very little in the way of nearby human habitation (I believe, could be wrong), you could become very powerful, very quickly.
     
  7. Tehan

    Tehan Avatar of Khorne DLP Supporter

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    Or you could get gang-raped by Jewish ghosts.

    I'm fairly sure part of the rite involved dropping the magical equivalent of a neutron bomb on Chicago and sucking up every freshly-formed ghost along with all the old angry ones that had been stirred up for the last few weeks along with the ones the Erlking rocks up with. It's like a perfect storm of dead things to om nom.

    Remember the part where Kemmler spent 150 years organising World War One? Wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to organise a similar perfect storm.
     
  8. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Once the rite started, the ghosts would be helplessly trapped in the vortex and be unable to cause any harm to the caster. Besides, any necromancer capable of performing darkhallow would likely be able to protect him/herrself from ghosts with ease.

    There is nothing in the text to suggest this, and infact some hints to suggest its not like this.

    It was explicitly said that the process of consuming the spirits causes a huge vacuum where energy just was when all those spirits are consumed. And that this vacuum then starts drawing energy from the surrounding environment to try and fill itself, and it is this drawing of energy that also draws life-energy from the nearby humans and kills them in the process.

    However by that time, the caster has ALREADY eaten the vortex and essentially become a god. I suppose its possible that the newborn god could then eat the ghosts that had been formed by the vacuum, but that would essentially mean performing the rite again. And at that point its not really necessary anymore (even if its possible).

    Then there is the presence of Erlking. He was apparently vital for the darkhallow to work fully since without the Erlking, there would not have been enough spirits running around. If the darkhallow by its very nature allowed the caster to eat the "souls" of millions of living beings, then I doubt very much Erlking would have been necessary in the first place. Whats a couple thousand hunter-spirits compared to millions of living human souls afterall.

    No, I am still convinced that darkhallow eats ONLY spirits, and that the deaths caused are merely an unintended side-effect that Kemmler simply did not care enough about to try and prevent in his ritual since by the time those deaths happened, he would already be a god.
     
  9. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

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    This is the case.
     
  10. Tehan

    Tehan Avatar of Khorne DLP Supporter

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    Guess I misremembered the destructive oomph of the Darkhallow. But it still seems kinda odd to me that someone with then necromantic muscle of Kemmler wouldn't have some way to capitalise on a mile's radius worth of fresh ghosts.
     
  11. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Considering that the absorption of the vortex isn't an instant process, what's to say he couldn't just continue sucking up the fresh ghosts until there are none left?
     
  12. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    We dont actually know if the absorption is not an instant process as such. Much of the nuts and bolts details are unknown to us.

    But my feeling why this is probably not the case comes from the fact that the Kemmlerites needed Erlking to bring up enough ghosts to make the rite worthwhile. Remember that Erlking, when summoned starts the wild hunt which causes old hunter spirits to rise up. The Kemmlerites were then going to eat those spirits up (and maybe Erlking too? Unsure about that).

    However, if the vortex in itself caused death and ghosts and then consumed the ghosts it itself had created, would Erlking really be necessary. I mean it it worked like that, could you not just perform a more "minor" darkhallow where you only consume all the spirits and ghosts that are runnign around normally. Then the life vacuum appears and kills a couple million people. Lets say 1% come up as ghosts due to all the damage done to the barriers between life and death at this point. Thats 10k ghosts to eat. Do you really need Erlking at this point? Especially since this would cause an even bigger vacuum, meaning more ghosts, meaning more eating, meaning bigger vacuum and so on.

    No, I still the most simple solution here is that the rite just summons up all the ghosts that already exist to that vortex. And the wizard performing the rite then eats the vortex and all the spirits trapped within and ascends to godhood. And as an after effect of this, everyone around dies as an unfortunate side effect.

    That being said, if someone wanted the Darkhallow to work like that in a Fan fic or something, I don't really see any reason why it could not be modified to do so. For example Dresden could weaken the barriers, making it easier ghosts to arise. Then use a leyline or such to commit mass genocide or something, creating millions of ghosts via human sacrifice rituals. Then eat up all those new ghosts.
     
  13. Random Shinobi

    Random Shinobi Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    True, but humans too do have spirits, and as such, the Darkhallow will devour them, increasing its power. As far as I understand it, just human deaths could fuel the ritual, only it wouldn't give nearly as much power to the necromancer.
     
  14. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    It's clearly stated a couple times in Dead Beat that the older a spirit is, the powerful it is, thus the more power you'd gain by devouring it, so yes, while it would kill everyone around for a mile and absorb them as well, it's the old spirits the caster really wants. According to Butcher, the living do have to be around to add fuel to the fire, so to speak, but the more old ghosts, the better.

    ...

    How did this thread turn into a debate about the intricasies of the Darkhallow? I thought it was a thread for mourning all the things Harry lost in Changes.

    As such, I mourn: Little Chicago, the Blue Beetle, the apartment, the office, the duster, Harry's paperback collection, Bob's paperback collection, and the sword-cane, though Harry never actually used it.
     
  15. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    He did twice, I think. Once in Grave Peril where he summoned Amoracchius from the altar with some magnetomancy, and second in Turn Coat where he used it as an earth magic focus.
     
  16. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I think the thing that I'll miss the most, is Harry's Duster. That was a gift from Susan far far back, and I honestly though he'd of kept it as a reminder. If not for what he's lost, but for what he's had to do.

    I'll miss you duster. :(

    As for the rest, not too torn up. Everything important made it, as far as I am concerned. Err..except for Harry, if we have it finished at this book.
     
  17. Zed

    Zed Third Year

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    There's just no way that this is the end for Harry. There are too many plot points tied to him; Demonreach, how he affects Outsiders, etc. However, I think he's done as a PI/Warden in Chicago.
     
  18. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Almost no one thinks its the end for Harry, as you said, and i've said in the past, no way Harry stop being a focus of the series, no way.

    I was simply meaning that if we took that as the last book ever, then we could of lost Harry too.
     
  19. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The title of the next book is "Ghost Story", but Butcher originally wanted to call it "Dead".

    ...looks like Harry might actually be dead after all (though, of course, not gone).

    Maybe he doesn't fully die because he still owes Mab a favour, and so has to repay it, even in death.
     
  20. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Apparently Butcher also said something about Harry having to fight/deal with outsiders. He could hardly do that if he is dead presumably. Still the story name is interesting. Maybe he IS dead during the next book and is somekind of spirit, and at the end of the book he is resurrected somehow (as a result/reward of what he does as a ghost maybe).