Except the SI wasn't raised with them. They're a, presumably, fully fledged adult transposed from our world and into ASOIAF. They already had their bonding experience with their own parents. While I can understand the bond between the SI and Robert, I don't see the point for trying to further one between themselves and Cersei, Jaime and their incest-spawn. They (along with a few notable others) have to be removed from the playing board if there is to be any notion of peace.

Not even close. Cersei is a classic narcissist, who sees her children (and Jaime) as extensions of herself and nothing more. When she's 'caring' for them, it's nothing more than caring for herself in a way. I get that the show has twisted a ton of people's perspectives on things, but that is really the genuine state of things in the books. Tommen and Myrcella are barely acknowledged by her to begin with in the books and when Joffrey abuses them, she turns a blind eye, because Joffrey is her primary aspect and he's perfect in every way for her.

Why is that the best option? I want you to explain how everything else, including killing him, is inferior.

Also, Joffrey has been called out on being a cunt several times in canon, no doubt, and it has done absolutely nothing because Cersei is always there to reinforce his ego and wrongly assumed superiority over others.

That's absurdly naive of you. We're talking about a woman that has literally aborted every single child she suspected to have been fathered by Robert. In fact, she gloried in that. She is cruel. She has always been cruel and vicious and petty. She will never not be like that, unless we're talking about complete AUs with significant revamps to the characterization of everyone involved.

Why?

 

Why call it a self-insert, then? The Lannisters and Baratheons are not the writer's family.

 

I think it pretty weird if you think you could premeditate killing children whether they are a part of your family or not.

 

This is Odran, guys. He'd drown a kitten and use it to strangle a human baby if it pleased him. You don't argue morals with a serb. That's why his SI is the best SI. In fact, if he updates it, I'll update the Black Prince. That's a promise.

 

*screams internally*

 

I wouldn't go that far, Odran would probably save the kitten and then kill baby.

 

Maybe he'd save it... as an emergency food supply.

But yeah, this got way too ITG here; "why don't you kill the kid you've known since they were a baby and are effectively your brother" is all kinds of fucked up.

 

That's still at least a 15 year timeframe of living with what is essentially an adopted family. Sure, the SI is not as influenced as they were when they were actually a child but that's still nothing to sneeze at, to spent at least a decade with people who are over all very good and kind to you. Not to mention that there is a strong dissonance between hating or condemning a fictional character and doing so with a real person.

So, in a lot of ways that matter, the SI was raised with them. That she wasn't as impressionable as could be doesn't mean that she hasn't grown to like them over that long frame of time.

True but nonetheless, the SI being there changes things significantly. Fact of the matter is, Cersei and Robert did have a child together now and while she certainly has a distance to the SI and with it an interesting and complex relationship that I want to explore more, and thus the SI has an unique path of influence to Joeffrey that even Cersei can't entirely negate.

She is still his older sister. That's a dynamic that cant ever be taken away from her and this is an angle of influence that cannot be taken away outside of killing the SI. I think you seriously underestimate the nature of that relationship, especially from a cultural angle. Yes, when people tried to influence Joeffrey in the past, to change his terrible decisions, there were two factors really that always prevented them from bearing fruit:

1. Joeffrey hated said person (Tyrion)

2. Cersei was quick to undo the message that was implanted because Cersei also hated that person. (Robert, Tyrion)

Now, to tackle the second point first, I am ready to believe that the SI is not Cersei's favorite child. Expect it, really. But she is still her first child and I while there is certainly a distance, I would be surprised if Cersei hated the SI. But yeah, I can see Cersei being concerned with the messages and lessons the SI is giving Joeffrey and that dynamic, that battle about Joeffrey's soul is going to be actually a really compelling point but here is why the first point is so important:

Joeffrey doesn't hate his sister. He might be resentful of the affection and pride Robert has FOR the SI but for the SI herself, Joeffrey actually looks up to her. She is a major influence, who has taken time again and again to look after Joeffrey, to teach him things, to tell him stories.

Maybe the influence Cersei has on Joeffrey is bigger than that of the SI but not by much, at this point. Joeffrey idolized Robert and desperately sought his affection and attention and here the person that Robert maybe approves and visibly loves the most is teaching him how to do better. The respect that Robert has for the SI is giving her even additional legitimacy in Joeffrey's eyes.

Added the cultural aspect, that younger siblings are, well, conditioned to listen to their elders up to a point and yeah, I wouldn't say that trying to change Joeffrey like that is a lost cause.

Not to mention that this way that in his formative years and beyond, Joeffrey will be exposed to a parent/older sibling figure that is actually competent and willing to invest the necessary time and effort to try and influence Joeffrey for the better, something that just wasn't the case with Cersei and Robert.

And as already mentioned, it takes a specific kind of psychopath who is willing to immediately resort to killing children, not to mention children they grew up with and who they see as their younger siblings. And if you are trying to say she should have done so before developing those emotions, well, she's just a few years older, should she have killed Cersei when she herself was two? Or kill Joeffrey when she was five?

Going to be honest, would have had difficulties relating to a main character who is incapable of forming emotional relationships with the people they live with for 15 years or so and who is willing to kill them for a nebulous greater good that by no means is guaranteed. Not to mention that her presence is already a huge changes, not to mention what she does with it, so not even the bad book things are guaranteed.

There is a difference between not wanting a child in the first place and then actually having that child and raising her for fifteen years. Even Cersei is not that beyond humanity. She is not a robot programmed for hate. If she were, she wouldn't be as fascinating of a character. Am looking forward to explore the dynamic between Cersei and the SI, all things considered. And the fact that it is not certain to either way is what makes it so potentially interesting. Did Cersei develop a fondness somewhere? The SI is her first child, even if the only regards the children she got from Jaime as true, there is still a social significance to the SI that Cersei is bound to be affected by. But yeah, we'll see how it all develops, especially once Robert is dead, how that will transform the landscape in the royal family and beyond.

Having a blackhaired child who couldn't be more obviously Robert's is bound to throw an obvious spanner in the works. There is a difference between "All of queen Cersei's children are born out of incest" and "Only the latter three children are born out of incest but not the first, I swear" in terms of believability.

Edit: Then there is the fact that the SI kinda ruins the Maggy the frog prophecy:

That's several years she has to come to terms with the fact that a prophecy she thought was real has been proven false. And if that one was false, what of the one about the younger queen?

Because you're arguing for everything to be drastically different. You say that the main character should not be who she is but rather an empty psychopath who is not only unable to forge emotional attachments to other people but also capable of slaughtering the family she was raised with. Thankfully, not that many people are willing and able to kill their whole family on shaky reasons. Killing Cersei, Jaime, Joeffrey, Mycrella and Tommen is, despite what you may think, not the rational first step but a desperate last resort, at least in a good story. And even if Cersei, Jaime and let's say Joeffrey are irredeemable evil people, and we know from the books that Jaime at least isn't and Joeffrey is going to have a drastically different childhood so even he is going to be at least somewhat different, but let's say we do accept that, that still wouldn't mean Tommen and Mycrella are anything but innocent children and it's a bit fucked up that you say that children born of incest should be killed.

Besides, if you are married to the "have to kill someone to prevent the bad book stuff" from happening, there is actually a far more important target out there and that is Littlefinger who seemed to have supplied the incest information to various members of the Small Council, for rather nebulous reasons, who then acted upon it to profit. Varys and Littlefinger both started fires and sabotaged all firefighters to get Westeros to the state that it is.

If there ever comes the point that the SI has to, -absolutely has to-, kill Joeffrey or worse all of her siblings for story reasons that make sense, it should be a gut-wrenching-last-resort-I-will-hate-myself-forever last ditch effort that the story has to earn. The SI killing a major faction she is affiliated with like that in the first few chapters is just not good story-telling, it's lazy wish-fulfillment.

 

While I generally agree with the rest, I do have to point out that Cersei is exactly that kind of psychopath and the SI knows this going in.

 

If you know that child is going to grow up as an evil cunt, the likes of Aerys, it's not fucked up at all.

Honestly, this is taking a huge gamble on the chance that he may not be an evil cunt.

But also, in the end, he is not a legitimate son of Robert's, he should not sit the Throne. And I don't see him accepting this fate quietly.

Were they though? Cersei is distant, at best, with barely any involvement with the SI. Joffrey is there, but the others... yeah, I got nothing.

Also, just because someone has been good and kind to you doesn't mean killing them would be wrong.

Subjectively? Perhaps. Objectively? No.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you trying to say that to the SI these are real people and not just characters they once read about in a book and thus there is to be some reluctance about doing the deed? Because I still don't understand.

Why would anyone grow to like Cersei or Joffrey or even Jaime over time? Jaime's redemption arc is nowhere close, he's still pretty much an arrogant cunt who'd push a small child out the window to hide his incestuous relationship with Cersei.

I'm not saying "Kill as soon as possible" because that would guarantee the SI would get caught in the act and then punished for it. I'm not even saying the SI should do it by their own hand. But the simplest, most pragmatical, way of removing potential threats is to kill them. You don't have to like it, you don't have to approve of it, but it is what it is. I take objection to the SI's complete lack of planning, of trying to change things on some bigger level than just interpersonal relationships of the royal 'family'.

Why is it a nebulous greater good? Are you trying to say the world would not be improved by their deaths?

And how is the SI's presence a huge change? Like I said, thus far it only offered some different perspective on canon stuff and small changes in the relationships between characters. That's it. What "huge change" are you exactly seeing here, other than the author putting herself in ASOIAF to begin with?

Who said anything about hate to begin with? Where are you getting this ridiculous notion that you have to hate someone to kill them?

She's not a fascinating character to begin with. She's a small girl telling stories about Star Wars to Tommen and Myrcella.

I'm not saying that at all. You're just projecting your own bias towards violent and bloody actions, thinking them only the provenance of psychopaths and other mentally unhinged people. My point is, you can kill or have people killed without being a psychopath. Emotional attachments are more or less irrelevant when you know those people are going to do evil or have done evil things or will present a problem for you that can't be just handwaved away.

Why? What exactly qualifies this as a good story to begin with? What exactly qualifies as a good story for you at all?

Jaime only gets redeemed later on. That is nowhere near the current timeline of events that the SI has come up to thus far.

So what if Tommen and Myrcella are innocent children? They're still bastards born of incest, whose very existence undermines the ruler's authority and legitimacy. Send them off to the Wall and Silent Sisters respectively if you'd want to avoid having their blood on your hands. My point is: get rid of threats, don't keep them around and pretend like they're your family when they're not.

 

The fic is based on a self insert, it is a lazy wish fulfillment that does not even take the self bit seriously.

 

Yeah, this definitely isn't a good story. Interesting, somewhat, because I've never seen this sort of "Bobby B' s eldest daughter" fic, but definitely not good.

 

Because I don't think Joffrey is so inherently evil that he should be written off. The kid was is twelve years old from a severely fucked family.

Consider Joffrey's upbringing. He had no actual friends to speak of, no close companions. Only his mother, of all things. He was a spoilt brat that nobody wanted to approach, who was raised with superiority complex from birth.

His father was a drunkard with very little real affection to him. His mother was overbearing and constantly tried to enforce on him a mantra of strength and ruthlessness, and that weakness is abhorrent. Joffrey desperately wanted his father's approval, and the only way he had ever been taught is through cruelty.
It was always said that the whole reason Joffrey acted out (killing kittens, paying goons to kill a cripple) was because of the delusion that that sort of strength could impress his dad. He hears Robert saying something about cripples are better off dead, and suddenly Joffrey is paying a catspaw with a dagger for no other reason.

With that upbringing, It's not surprising that Joffrey ended up as sadistic. Hell, the surprising bit is that Myrcella and Tommen somehow managed to become decent and well-adjusted children despite all the odds stacked against them.

Joffrey really, really desperately needed a friend, even if he would never realise himself. Just because he's a shit, doesnt mean he doesn't deserve sympathy.

If you're in a position to help in asoiaf, why not start with the one that needs it the most?
One good friend, any one that could offer Joffrey a moral compass he'd listen to, then maybe that's all it would take.

If you do that, then Joffrey doesn't grow up a shit, and then Joffrey doesn't start the war of five kings. Ned Stark didn't get executed, the catspaw doesn't get paid to kill Bran. That's a whole lot of suffering that could have been avoided, if only Joffrey had had a normal childhood.


I think Cersei is in the same boat, to be honest. She grew up with Tywin as an example - constantly told the importance of utter strength and control, yet at the same time being shunned for her twin. Add on to that an abusive, bitter marriage with the man who killed her crush, and I would say that absolutely anybody would become just as much of a bitch as she is with the same circumstances.

That's the best part of the Lannisters to my mind; they aren't clear cut villains, a lot of them (like Westeros in general) are victims of circumstances.

 

The average smallfolk in the Riverlands?

I swear, this is like the shit "Just because you did bad things doesn't make you a bad person" that some people spout when that is literally the definition of it.

That's another load of horseshit. Everyone's a fucking victim of circumstance in ASOIAF. So what? They still make their choices and consequences are to be expected. Granted, what I am suggesting here is a bit of preemptive culling for Joffrey, but Cersei has more than earned her fate. The whole 'abloo bloo, Tywin was a horrible dad' doesn't really fly when the majority of people are terrible parent figures in ASOIAF.

 

Joffrey is just as evil as Tom Riddle at the same age. He deserves to get offed.

And...you're nuts if you think Cersei gets a pass because Tywin was a bastard.

 

Young Tyrion had it worse than Young Cersei, and he didn't go around pushing people into wells.

 

And I would agree. I would happily justify their deserved deaths... except in the specific case when time travel and self inserts into the Lannister family are valid alternatives.
Isn't it better to help fix a damaged person and make the world a better place, rather than just killing that person because of damage which is still preventable?
It's difficult to help a population, but it's fairly easy to help a person.

Really, I'd consider a good 'SI into early canon' fic as one which deals with all of these issues. I would say that one few ways a SI can become more than wish fulfillment is when it's used to explore the characters instead.

 

I'm not saying I would kill the little shit if I was his big sister... But if he drowned in the tub, I wouldn't consider it a great loss.

And if Cersei tripped and fell to her death down a long flight of stone steps, well, that'd just be a civil service, wouldn't it? And I love Cersei.

 

Actually, Cersei is the queen Westeros deserves. I'd do everything in my power to see her on the throne.

 

Tyrion did a lot of fucked up shit.