I pretty sure when you are branded a Arch-heretic of the church that won't be withdrawn ever no matter what. It was explicitly stated that Cordelia has no control over the church and all promises, pacts or negotiations with a heretic are unbinding and unlawful. So no she actually can't ask for that. And remember the trust issue between Cat and Cordelia, thats not resolved. So why should Cordelia trust Cat now enough to use the fairy gates or allow here into Procer? What Cat could have warned Cordelia about, would have been maybe the invasion plans or the deal between Malicia and the Dead King, but what exactly does she know there?

And remember the lines about Cordelia having to step down if she made a deal with Cat within one month? Since then Cat was declared an Arch-Heretic and Cordelias support has declined. So I really do not see a strong negotiation position for Cat here. Also if she helps Procer now she would most likely have to fight a civil war in Callow.

And damn I would really like to read Fatalism II now.

 

Given that Cordelia is just now learning that her messages have been compromised, it seems unlikely that the Augur already knew.

I still think the Augur has a limited uses per day gimmick. Her living area didn't exactly seem like Birdemic. And if she only has a few uses per day and must look for specific threats, she'd probably spend them on a couple important things each day, for fear that slipping up could have grave consequences--what are Black, Malicia, and Cat doing? Free Cities? Is Klaus, Cordelia, or herself under threat of assassination? Chain of Hunger and the Dead King? What are the other princes up to? If she's currently having to maintain some sort of threat matrix on the strategic and personal levels then it makes sense that tactical details are going to slip through the cracks.

 

Given: The Augurs predictions are always true.

1) Augur tells Cordelia where Black's going to be. Cordelia scries the relevant commanders letting them know
2) Black intercepts the message and finds out where the Procerans are moving
3) Black proceeds to go in a different direction and uses his Aspects of Lead and probably Conquer to boost his army in outmaneuvering the Procerans

Ergo, Augur's prediction in this scenario would be wrong, which violates our given. The Augur therefore could not give the predictions necessary.

I'm pretty sure this idea was talked about back in the last round of headscratching over the Augur re: the Vales and other things, where she can't predict things until they're already in motion/unchangeable. We just didn't remember that Praes can intercept scrying. This whole concept is a very straightforward application of the first limitation we learn: the Augur is unable to predict spontaneous action. It's from her first appearance no less.

Scrying is just a specific (though very powerful) mechanism for using the paradox and Augur's limitations as a shield. There are limits to its applications, but they apply here since her warnings have to be scried to be of any use given their time-sensitive nature. Therefore she's been severely curtailed as a threat until Cordelia works around this.

 

So you don't place any value in seeing characters experiencing defeat first hand or actually seeing the final part of a storyline? Got it.

Also, what? Malicia very specifically mindfucks anyone she thinks might be a threat to her who isn't a powerful Named, because she has huge, huge control issues. The idea of her own military be anything but loyal to her concerned her so much that she mindfucked every soldier in a leadership position in all of Praes.

Also also, you seem to forget what Speaking can do.

Ignoring the part where the Beast was beating the shit out of the Champion for literally every word of the fight that we saw. Like, we don't get to see the Champion with an edge for even a moment or even get an implication of things turning south. She just got explained to death off-screen.

Ah yes, Cat must have used her amazing diplomacy skills on him. Would have been nice to see that--see the issue?

As is, yeah, given what Malicia said, by all accounts she did do it all herself.

Please, this story obeys so many tropes it's not even funny, worthless as that statement is. And 'letting the main character solver their problems' is a trope for a reason--because it's good storytelling.

Whether pulling something out of your ass is an ass-pull or not depends on context, and Masego absolutely goes into ass-pull territory, because consider this: Masego copied the Demon of Order--and learned how to selectively alter the laws of physics. THis is on top of being able to copy other demons. Masego copied Black's Destroy in Liesse, despite not even being in the City at the time or in any way able to see it. He can now copy fucking Aspects. Masego copied the Summer Sun--he can now literally drop it on people at will.

And given his ability to do all of that shit--explain this. How does Masego not solve every problem?

Masego's powers are an ass-pull because they resolve shit or don't depending solely on the author's needs at the moment.

Similarly, Cat's powers resolve problems or don't as the mood takes her.

Their abilities are supposed to be accurate--that's the entire reason for Black's Practical Evil and why he even chose Cat as the Squire. And you're trying to imply this army held for three hours against guys who can gesture at nothing and cut it?

None of the fighters knew that.

Uh-huh.

Please, tell me more.

I remember that. I also remember that being, oh, something like seven goddamn power-ups ago. Archer trounced them when Cat was an incomplete Squire 1.0, before she came back and got Take, Break, and Fall, before the Winter Mantle, the unlocked Winter Mantle, the true Winter Mantle, and the Winter Mantle, Winter Boogaloo. Before Masego was the Heirophant. Before the Woe were big dogs, simply put.

You think Archer could beat Cat in a fight now? Please. And Cat ran for her life from the Saint.

Even your assumptions don't work, because Pilgrim did that and then shattered Cat's portal and then healed a thousand people from the brink of death.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha--wait, are you serious? No. Not at all. Like, what so ever--Archer's not even a pale shadow of Ranger, because Ranger's what she is for two reasons:

1) She's an elf and as they grow older, they can literally selectively chose what laws of physics they want to obey, which allows Ranger to do stuff like literally will people dead.

2) Her Aspects are Learn, Perfect, and Transcend. She learns any moves used on her immediately, masters them immediately to perfection, and then gets even better than that at them. Archer doesn't have anything comparable to that.

His plan to get caught and use the narrative weight of that to let Cat escape the Crucible, without which she gets nowhere?

Sometimes is a long, long way from not at all.

Rozala didn't know anything about anything regarding the Named or any of her enemies, though? Also, how would she get accurate information on this?

Black has literally mentioned Sabah's death all of twice since then and we didn't even get a chance to see the Calamities react after her death.

All of her problems are thankfully really obvious, though? Seriously, 'What's Black doing?'

That was not what was said at all--Cordelia has plenty of control over the Church, particularly the Proceran Church, she just couldn't stop a combined motion by them, the Ashuran Speakers, and the Levantine Lanterns; it's not that she has no control of the Church, it's that two other nation's Churches got involved. If literally millions of people will die otherwise, things will obviously change.

And that's the thing here--the answer those those questions is because things have changed.With the Dead King on the march, Cat effectively has Cordelia's metaphorical balls in a vice. Her main forces are in the south, Black is in her territories, the Saint of Swords and Grey Pilgrim are absent and the army from the Northern campaign, which is the closest one to the Dead King's forces, got fucked up and has only about half it's rookie heroes left. For Klaus and his armies to reach the Dead King, it would take literal months and in that time the Dead King will sweep aside everything in his path, notably including most of the Principalities that support Cordelia.

Why would she listen to Cat now when she brushed aside the talk of the Vales? Because with the Vales, Cordelia's armies could go trough one way or another, it'd just take awhile. In this case, if everything Cordelia has and then some isn't up north yesterday, Procer is going to be on fire.

Most of those things would reveal everything she needs to know, though?

Except this is ridiculously, overly circular? Like, we know that the Augur can see shit that's happened after the fact--when someone spontaneously took one of Cordelia's envoys, it wasn't that Augur didn't know it happened at all, she just didn't know before hand--when it happened, she immediately told Cordelia. In this case, Augur could 100% just see that the messages are being intercepted after they were the first time.

And no, not at all, because in this case, the action of scrying would be the decided upon action.

Like, seriously, if scrying shut down the Augur, Cordelia would be dead by now. Don't be silly.

 

Ryugi, I do have some of the same issues you mention with the story recently. With this latest interlude chapter, I legitimately thought I missed an update and was scrolling down trying to find it.

Just want to address one topic you've mentioned as being inconsistent: Malicia's underlings being able to betray her when our knowledge from her interlude tells us they shouldn't be able to. I had a personal theory on this that was only reinforced after the latest interlude. She probably could have stopped them from even being able to think of betraying her, but instead chose to allow it.

Had she forced them to stay loyal through mind-fuckery, what benefits would she have gotten? Cat probably would have broken the shields eventually and the outcome would have been the same. Even if Cat hadn't been able to break through, that puppet being killed had no real effect on her plans as long as she still had Athel in place. If she did force them to stay loyal, that potentially tips off Cat about one of her most powerful layers of control which ensures she stays in her position.

Now though, since Malicia didn't use her ability to ensure loyalty Cat will continue to underestimate her. As far as Cat knows now, she was entirely successful for most of her plans and her main goal only failed because of some unknown criteria the Dead King had. When it came down to it, she's convinced that she was able to turn some of Malicia's own most loyal on her because of her understanding of power and the Wasteland mindset. Why not try it again in the future? Malicia could easily use this to feed Cat false info through a 'turned' agent. She's likely overconfident enough to think she could do the same again and kill Malicia if she had to, while we the reader know just how out of her depth she would be.

It was all just another move in Trump's Malicia's 4-D chess game which gave her a long-term psychological tool over Cat at the cost of the lives of a few flunkies.

 

I didn't forget at all what it can do, but that doesn't mean it was the most effective move. We know simulacrums only have a portion of their power and Malicia was powering three. Did she have the energy to also command her troops and then also deal with whatever else she had to in that fight? Probably not.

We see Sabah handle most of the fight, but then she releases the Beast. Once the Beast comes out she lets over more and more control. It's implied in the story that by the end of the fight she has given up control and let the monster do its thing. That's when Champion gets the advantage. One small detail that suddenly slotted her into a losing narrative.

You have this strange way of discounting basically everything that Cat does. She either hasn't done it right or is saved by Malicia/Black/Some sudden power infusion. Is it so hard to believe that Cat, with some hard mentoring by Malicia, could come up with and execute an idea.

I'd say this story subverts as many tropes as it obeys. That's the entire point of the story. There's more than one way to tell a good story.

Masego is a classic Glass Cannon. His entire name is about looking at miracles, or things on that level, and dissecting them. It's literally his shtick to see something insanely powerful and then copy it. He doesn't solve every problem because dropping a miracle isn't always the best solution and he can only go for so long. We saw it with this fight. He put work in on the Skein then had to sit back for the rest of the action. Even that pushed him to his limit and gave him an entirely new aspect. As for him being able to resolve tons of things, again I go back to him being Warlocks son and apprentice. He's supposed to be overly competent in pretty much all things. Shit he spends every moment the Woe aren't drawing his attention reading a book.

Cat's problems resolve things when she finally decides to stop holding back. That's been a common theme for her the entire story. She holds herself back because she's afraid of giving into evil or to winter or whatever other devil is on her shoulder. That's part of her character. If Akua were in her position she'd have none of those issues and we would know way more about the mantle and it's abilities. But she's not so we get to discover abilities as Cat needs them, along with finding out about ones she's been working on off screen that have gotten mentions. Like the whistle artefact. There are more artefacts by the way so when another gets pulled out don't just say it's bullshit.

I'm implying that the Legion war doctrine has contengies for dealing with Heroes. Especially B-team heroes who aren't on the level of Saint and Pilgrim. Or are you implying that every scrub on the other side was on that level. Because if they were then the actual army wouldn't really be needed because super team would cut through everything.

No, you pretty much did it for me. The section you quoted describes a mentor figure who happens to pull bullshit moves, especially at critical moments. Thank you for proving me right.

 

Possible, though at that point, I'd have liked at least a brief mention of it in her internal monologue; instead, she mentions how close she came to defeat because that body was killed and her second body was found. It's also important to remember that since Malicia doesn't need to actually speak to Speak to people, thanks to Rule, and that since she can put long-term contingencies in people's minds, she could have easily done it without Cat realizing, or at least gotten more out of the betrayal--getting someone to have Cat swear that oatht to give them refuge in Callow, for example.

Doesn't actually matter at all:

Malicia doesn't mindfuck people as they betray her. She mindfucks them long before they can. And we know how the villains use that ability:

(One of these continenginces was, again, to kill herself. On of the orders was to kill all her allies. Note, this had been done to twenty other officers at the same time.)

Which we saw absolutely nothing even implying between the two characters themselves.

Do you honestly thing that Cat was the one that came up with that idea? Because if you do, don't be ridiculous, but more to the point, we're explicitly told she didn't:

Every time something happens lately, I complain Cat either hasn't done it right or was saved by Malicia/Black/Some sudden power infusion, because that's been what's happened.

Not following a specific trope is not the same as subverting one, and doing either of those things is not necessarily the same as telling a good story.

And if every problem they faced was the Skein, you might have a point. This is not the case; Masego's reality-fuckery is more than enough most of the time.

Actually, the whistle was the only Aspect Cat had taken, so I would 100% call bullshit if she starts pulling out a bunch more without explanation. And Cat discovering new uses of her power when pressed is fine in moderation, which as not been what happened, as she seems to pull out something new every major fight.

There contingency is fucking dying. Terribilis literally made laws against fighting heroes like that. And no, I'm considering them comparable to Will, which makes them way too hard for that army.

Also, the Heroes could literally Speak to the goons and cause their ranks to fall apart, so literally any of them able to do that would have shattered Legion doctrine regardless.

But notably, not resolve all the kid's problems himself.

1) Saint made Cat run for her life as she is now, so I don't know what that matters.

2) We're explicitly told of a number of people in Refuge she can't beat and when she talks of Ranger, she mentioned never leaving so much as a scratch on her.

3) Ranger's mom explicitly trained her since she was a young girl to fight full-blooded Elves.

4) Ranger's explicity power is to surpass her limits.

No, Archer should have one-sidedly died in that fight based on everything we've seen.

Cat literally only got there in time because of it and it was also the trick that allowed Black to somehow fucking leave to catch Akua's dad off-screen, which is all that let Cat escape being Akua's bitch.

I sure as hell never said that--my complaint is that she never seems to predict anything lately.

She has plenty of reasons to want to, sure, but check her POVs--she explicitly doesn't know jack shit about Named. Meanwhile, we've actually seen the Augur.

They...kind of haven't? Like, if you mean the end of Book 3, what he did there was less about being angry and aggressive and more about being sick of compromising--destroying the big weapon was something he'd have wanted to begin with, he just refused to be talked down from it, which fucking Cat even admitted was the right move in hindsight.

Also, are you kidding? Since Sabah died, Black's pulled shit out of his ass to narrative-houdini people twice.

Uhhhhhhh:

1) We've seen the Augur's individual predictions and that's not remotely how they work.

2) We've seen the Augur get a clear idea on not only past event but people's intentions, so don't be silly.

3) Who know's what she missed would have some fucking weight if, oh, Cordelia wasn't literally clueless about the actions of the Free Cities, Cat, Black, and Malicia, meaning literally all of her enemies. How the fuck does that work?

Who cares? Even if redemption was off the table, she could extort the shit out of them.

Not being able to react to everything is fine. The issue is that the Augur has shown herself unable to react to anything. Over the last three or four months that we know of, the Augur's failed to predict the actions of literally anyone Procer was fighting; that's not limited ability, that's lack of ability. If she foresaw Black's actions but it caused her to miss what Cat was doing until it was too late, I'd actually be fine with that, because there'd be an explanation. As is, the Augur's doing jack-shit, right after we got the absurdity of prediction Names hammered in.

Cordelia very rarely asks about specific things? Augur just finds them and tells her. And again, while spontaneous events can keep the Augur from predicting something, she's very clearly shown that she can see what they did after the fact, as well as how and why.

What's more, this view is outright silly and wrong, but I'd still accept it over what we got, because then something was keeping the Augur busy, if there'd been a careful passage of orders or something that just got intercepted. As is, the Augur has apparently done nothing regarding Black, Cat, Malicia, the Free Cities, or anything else with her sole warning being of danger to the north and the south, which, wow. Thanks, Agnes.

 

So, do you just like hate fun or...?

 

No, and it escapes me how criticizing flaws in a work could be considered that besides. Then again, I can't say I remember ever thinking of DLP as a place to avoid criticism, either, so maybe I just missed that memo. I like things in this story, like the world, the lore, etc. I dislike a whole lot about how it's being carried out lately, in ways that can primarily be boiled down to bullet points in a Writing 101 class, like 'Show, don't Tell', 'Remember plot point that you introduced,' 'Explain the things that resolve your story,' and so on. On that note, to everyone who decried the complaint of us not seeing the Dead King drop the bomb about working with Malicia because we'd get it later, well, got some news.

Cat doesn't even mention it. Like, it turns out that after completely skipping the part where the Dead King dropped the bomb on Cat, we proceeded to also skip any kind of reaction on the matter from Cat. The sum-total of her reaction on the matter is saying:

That's literally all we fucking got. Man, that was a worthwhile arc.

Anyway, they've since moved on to try to negotiate with the Drow, though I wonder what they have to offer or how much more beneficial that would be now then when they dismissed the idea before. Meanwhile, Callow's on fire still and basically all the non-Named, non-Legion characters in Cat's inner circle died off-screen. I should probably be more upset about Ratface, Kendell, and probably a bunch of other people we knew dying off-screen, but in all honesty, they haven't mattered in awhile now. If I'm being honest, I'm more annoyed that after the end of the Battle of the Camps where we got some convoluted narrative shenanigans that resulted in the Crusaders softballing things because the Grey Pilgrim had some kind of redemption story going that we all thought was bullshit at the time, it...was revealed to indeed be utter bullshit which amounted to nothing, and he left, also off-screen.

Having said that, it was good to see that Malicia could, indeed, just casually fuck over all of Callow at will like we thought. On the other hand, despite having basically it's entire leadership dead and all it's borders on fire after multiple major incidents, and the Kingdom supposedly running out of money and having no real trade network on top of the guy in charge of all their budget magic dead, while anti-Praesi sentiment was on such a rise that Praesi legionnaire on leave got killed by Callowans, Juniper says that she can put together an army to shake the continent, which...I mean, at least the people have a reason to enroll this time? But I'm not sure how the mechanics of that sorts out, especially when their current plan to deal with the refuges involves having all the farmers in Summerholm and such stop farming for months. Like, that seems like a terrible idea no matter how you cut it, especially when their southern farms got recently bombed.

Also, the Matrons are active and the Warlock was calling his son back to Praes. Not really sure how either would shake out, but we know Cat needs new sources of goblinfire and Masego resolves half the issues in this story, so it's hard to believe both won't work out, despite the tremendous, reaching implications that should likely follow either.

 

She can put long term contengencies, but that doesn't mean that she will. Sometimes people just get taken off guard. She wasn't expecting her mages to be in that kind of position, and probably thought that the Sentinels would handle it if it didn't. Don't just throw off the power drain either. Black took a serious hit to his power just running one simulacrum. Malicia was running three of them, that's no small effort.

Other than the section ending with "SABAH WATCHED." If that isn't a clear distinction of the Beast being in control then I don't know what is.

Terms may have been offered by Malicia, but that doesn't mean Cat sat in the corner with a coloring book. She had her own input for the plan, and is the reason they were even in position to pull it off. Or did Malicia speak the commands into Cat so she'd do it by herself.

Then why are you still reading it? That is a legitimate question by the way.

Most of the time. There have been situations where he's not there or gets overwhelmed. Most of the people they go against aren't that strong though. Masego is a machine gun while everyone else is still using muskets. He comes from the most magically advanced country on the continent and was taught by the most powerful mage of that nation. Not to mention he makes a study of finding and breaking down the impossible. So much so that his Name entirely revolves around that. He should be the one who steps up to the plate when shit goes sideways like that. It's not like it came out of nowhere anyway. He has done this the entire story. It would actually be against the grain if he looked at some oblong threat and said "Nope outside my wheel house entirely, we're fucked guys lol"

We have no idea if it is the only one she took, and it's implied she made more. Something like a dozen heroes attacked Callow before the prologue to this book. When she fights Saint the first time she literally says "You will make very useful artefacts." Does that sound like something that she one and doned after Akua? Hell no. She's got some more tricks up her sleeve.

Except it's a different Legion than under Terribilis. They've gone through a complete change in doctrine and engagement, denying that is just dumb. Will is also much stronger than most of those B-listers. You seem to forget that there are tiers to how powerful names are. Most of these guys are local names who haven't even been around that long. Most of them probably don't even have all three aspects. That makes them weaker overall. Not even factoring in how bunching them together like this weakens their overall narrative power.

You literally complained that he did in the same post. So is he known for solving her problems, especially ones too big for her, or does he not?

1.) Because Archer didn't run and didn't die. So either Erratic has fucked up her own story and has no idea what she's doing, or Archer is actually a badass. Thank god we have you here to tell it straight.

2.) That just means there are more hard fuckers, and that Ranger is a god. Ranger would probably destroy Saint. We've never heard of them tangoing so Saint is most likely beneath her notice.

3.) That she did. Doesn't make her a full elf though. Just means that she knows some tricks and has a name that gives her theirs too.

4.) Yet she didn't. It's almost like we've never gotten to see her go full out. And the one time she has you call bullshit, because HURR DURR Cat couldn't do it.


[/QUOTE]
Cat literally only got there in time because of it and it was also the trick that allowed Black to somehow fucking leave to catch Akua's dad off-screen, which is all that let Cat escape being Akua's bitch.
[/QUOTE]

So you're saying it worked? That it bought time and allowed Black to enact the later part of the strategy? Glad we're starting to agree on things, even if your attitude leaves much to be desired.

You seem to think that Augur is a catch all. Not even replying to the defense I laid out. Augur can see all the shit she wants, it's worth nothing if they can't respond to it. If she tells Cordelia that it's gonna rain, but she doesn't have an umbrella, what's the point? She tells her all sorts of shit probably. Doesn't mean she has infinite resources to devote to everything. Augur is like having a fact check while they plan. Without a plan though there's no fact check. Just shit spewed out.

No one knows jack shit about names. As readers we know a ton, but there aren't that many experts. That doesn't discount observations that characters make. If it does then we might as well throw out all that we haven't seen Augur do personally, which is less than you imply.

So you're saying that he's become more uncompromising and and aggressive? Losing some of the things that have worked for him in the past. Like pulling reckless moves that before Sabah he wouldn't have considered? Definitely no change then. Glad things are business as usual. I'm going to tell you that was sarcasm, by the way. I know things that don't fit your narrative are hard to miss.

We've seen her make a few individual predictions. Ones that are very story focused and probably qualify as handed down by gods. We also know she makes tons of useless predictions like weather patterns. Augur also isn't getting their intentions so much as seeing what they will do. I know Malicia intends to kill this guy, because we saw it happening if we don't stop it, is different than I know Malicia intends to do X,Y, and Z cause future seer stuff. She knew the courier was grabbed because she probably saw as it happened. If she saw intentions then all of the couriers would have had extra protection. Instead they got jacked. I've already argued that Augur isn't omnipotent and can't see everyone doing everything. So your third point is just more bitching and moaning that best girl waifu Augur isn't a god.

Cat obviously did. She has no reason to trust that any agreements will be honored anyway. Her goal was to unleash the Dead King and give them a warning. Mission Accomplished, fly the banners over the carriers.

What is there for her to foresee with Black? His goal is to cause chaos. Even with those loose terms they still know a bit. They just don't have the ability to react to it. They know exactly where Black is headed next. There just isn't an army there to stop him and the one following him is too slow. How can the Augur change that? Is she gonna open up some fucking seer portals and move pieces into place faster than light? She gonna go there herself and fuck up his army? Or actually I got it. Augur is going to perfectly see their plan and send them the information. Hoping that there is a way they can counter it. Just ya know, they won't because they can't. Knowing doesn't mean you can respond. Like I said her telling them they're gonna have a lake dropped on them won't help much. Put some rain jackets on guys cause you're gonna have a lake dropped on you. Twice by the way. The generals hear that shit and probably just think to avoid lakes.

Augur has literally had a conversation with Cordelia about her asking specific things. She tells her that she answers questions because she wants to truly help or some bullshit. That's actual proof that Cordelia asks and she gets the answers. As for seeing things after they happen, how does that help? Hey guys the Black Queen dropped that lake I mentioned by opening up a portal. So ya know, just stop that in the future.

I'm so glad you have this advanced view into Procer where you know all of the background moves. We know that their scrying was hacked, so whatever orders she has or hasn't given were useless anyway. We know Malicia knows about Augur, and has been actively finding ways to fuck her. We don't know how effective her warnings are yet. Again this just goes back to you thinking that Augur she be a catch all god who sees literally anything. She can't. That literally ends the argument. You want proof that she has limits? Read the fucking story. It lays it out perfectly. But you don't care because it doesn't fit whatever narrative it is you have going.

@Seratin my vote is yes.

 

First off, Malicia doesn't trust anyone but Black. That is her defining character trait; her lack of trust and need for control.

Second of all, these are all Praesi guards, meaning she could have mindfucked them before that was an issue.

Third, Black's power wasn't really drained so much as he had to be meditating to control the body--and while Malicia had three potential bodies ready, she only controlled one at a time or maybe two, depending on how good the autopilot on Athal was.

Except where the beast was in control or not doesn't have anything to do with what I'm say--everything we saw of the beast was him kicking Champion's ass.

Sure would be nice if you had any evidence for this at all whatsoever.

Because I like aspects of this story, even if I think recent events have been lackluster.

Um, no? Well, yes, in the sense that 'Magically resolving problems with no real explanation' has always been something he did, but that's not an excuse and it's gotten worse over time.

Then I will absolutely call bullshit on it if she resolves problems by taking a bunch of aspects off screen.

Will was only a match for Squire 1.0 while using Swing and he himself said he only beat her because he was more experienced with a sword. The Loneswordsman is a B-List Name in most cases, because he is a local Named. Also, it was stated they had their aspects. Also also, even when they were playing their Name 100% straight like the Pilgrim explicitly did, it amounted to nothing.

The Pilgrim does not resolve all his kids problems--he shows up to save them and turn the tide. Black, meanwhile, flat-out is the only reason Cat won against Akua and she was literally just a tool in the whole thing.

Hah, okay then--explain to me how the hell you can even imagine Archer dealing with the Saint cutting reality.

The Saint has flat-out stated she's met the Ranger before and is personally familiar with her fighting style?

The Ranger nearly killed Cat by just thinking really hard about it and was stated to be the most dangerous person on the continent, so...what are you trying to say?

Huh? We've seen her go all out multiple times. Hell, random example--Cat, Hackram, and Archer teamed up against Sulia in melee and got the shit beaten out of them.

Except it worked because of '???' which is kind of shitty when it's the reason the book got resolved.

Except you're completely missing my point which is that we just saw Cordelia's view point and she hadn't been notified of literally any threat at all.

First of all, Rozalia's statement flat-out stated it was just rumors.

Second of all, what we've seen the Augur do is predict future and past events, understand the specific intentions behind them, know where forces are all across the country and outside it, and even foresee stuff she couldn't have been constantly looking for, like the elves--which is really kind of all I'm asking for here.

Except every decision he's made sense then has worked out and been considered to be in the right?

1) We've literally never actually seen her make a weather prediction.

2) We've seen her make individual prediction on specific people in and out of the country several times now, none of which were implied to be handed down--why, for example, would the gods have passed on the fact that two elves had left the Golden Bloom when the only person she could tell was Cordelia and when they were also sending the Bard to deal with it?

3) No, we were flat-out told she was trying to read the intentions of the elves.

4) If she can see spontaneous actions as they happen...that makes my point for me?

5) As you've apparently missed a dozen times now, I'm not arguing for her to be god, I'm arguing for her to do something.

Then Cat's dumb, see this chapter.

Cordelia got told literally nothing about what Black was doing at all, though? And was taken by surprise multiple times? And they currently have a whole bunch of armies on standby and a dozen heroes? And, even baring that, the idea that Black wouldn't get very far was Klaus' reason not to split up his own army to pursue?

You've been reading this story, right?

(Also, when Cat broke out the lake, she was promptly bitch-slapped, so you obviously can respond to it. The Witch of the Woods made mockery of shit like that.)

No? Like, every time we see them, they're having tea together and Augur just passes on what she sees. At most, Cordy will ask for clarification. Cordelia probably could ask her, too, and most likely does, but we never see it--and we just got a chapter where the Augur called her up.

Also, if you can't see any use in immediately knowing what an enemy has done after they do it, you have a shitty imagination.

Are you kidding me!? We just got a POV from Cordelia and she didn't know what literally anyone was doing! Not even 'she thought she knew but they surprised her,' she just flat-out didn't know! I don't care if Augur catches everything, but she caught literally nothing.

That's nice.

 

Yes Procer situation is pretty bad, but how does that change the way they view Cat? Cat is still an Arch-Heretic and all oaths and promises to her unbinding. To make matters worse the curch of Callow, which also fell under the heresy accusation, has in turn declared the other churches as heretics. So there will mostlikely be a war of faith between them. So all the reasons they didn't want to use Cats portals against Praes are still there. Why should they trust Cat not to leave their armies stranded in nowhere or murder it and laugh when the dead king kills them all? How could you even convince them to work with Cat at all? For them she is EVIL and the enemy. And even worse they literally can no longer negotiate with her since all their promises, oaths and treaties are by their own law not binding. So how could there ever be a deal between them with that as a starting point? I really cannot see a way for Cat to get anything working here. And according to them she killed like 30k of them already and the only reason some lived at all was the Pilgrim shattering her portal. Also they already broke the last deal with her and that one actually twice. Also she is the student of the man who right now is burning his way through Procer.

Maybe but you forgot Black is also the reason she got bound in the first place. First by letting here cross the Threefold reflection with a cheat, which put the story against her and then proposing to her to take the fight into Arcadia, where Black knew she would lose. So stating that without Black Cat would have lost isn't really sure. Since it would have gone way different in my opinion.

Remember this?
Arrogance. Your doom comes.

“Might be,” she said. “But not today, and not through this weak an instrument. Fuck off, you bottom feeders. This one’s been claimed fair and square.”

I assumed from that, that she had a couple of those aspect trinkets somewhere. Why else would she have said claimed?

 

You apparently missed the unstoppable doomsday army that just got unleashed. Callow is faltering over the initial attacks of a single Crusade--the Dead King has massacred six without them ever coming close. The last one involved an Angel mindfucking the entire population of Salia into a fanatical army of half a million people on the low end and all of them died--which, remember, means the Dead King now has an army that size in store, on top of a low ball of fifty Revanants, counting only what we've seen on-screen.

Nothing else matters in Procer now. Their grudges and claims against Cat and Callow are as dust in the wind because the only thing at present that can stop the Dead King is his own unwillingness to fall into narrative traps, and he's apparently on the road of 'eat the baby.' Cat is a nuisance compared to the things the Dead King can field; if he sent out a fifth of the forces he obtained in the last Crusade, the Spellblade, and the Skein, I'd say without a shadow of a doubt that he had both the largest army on the continent and the strongest.

The thing you seem to be missing right now is that, even if we assume that they're unwilling to rely on her for their military because we're in some bizarre world where what they want still matters--if Cat doesn't use her gates, eight principalities are going to get wiped off the map and the capital of their country is going to share a border with the Kingdom of the Dead. The closest military force they have is the one Cat recently broke over her knee, with several nobody heroes and a Saint and Pilgrim that already left, and neither of those things can hold the Dead King back for more than an afternoon unless he wants them to.

And you don't seem to have grasped Procer's current condition so let me summarize it: Either they find a way to teleport about a hundred thousand soldiers to, and a sizable fraction of a million on the low-end civilians away from, their Northern most border or half of Procer ceases to exist as a country. Those are the only options they have.

Any concern that falls short of that issue doesn't matter in comparison. If the Church decided that hating Cat was more important than the survival of eight Principalities, Procer would have a new religion by tomorrow.

Sure, but there's a reason Black did it that way and drawing Akua to Arcadia--where she lost--had been Cat's plan from the start because winning in the real world was so unlikely. And if Black didn't get her through the Reflection, the odds of her getting there to begin with are poor.

You misunderstand my complaint. It's possible that Cat's been building up a stock of Aspects from the heroes she's been killing off-screen, who had a bunch of unknown Aspect and capabilities. But if, say, Cat was about to be killed by the Drow High Priestess--as a random example--and there was no way out for her, but she suddenly revealed that she'd stolen the Aspect Escape from someone we never saw? I would 100% call bullshit on it, because that's resolving a major plot issue with what's basically a hand-wave.

 

Man, all the cool stuff happened off screen while we had a wheel spinning book. I'm just disappointed

 

I didn't miss the doomsday army at all or that they have new pressing problems. The thing is for Cat to be of any help against their likely end, they have to at least trust her not to backstab them and they have no reason to believe she wouldn't. Yes her portals could massivly help them relocate their troops, but on the same hand, Cat can use those portals to leave them stranded in Arcadia or get them all killed. The last time she used her fairy powers ten thousands died, she raised their corpes and forced them in a peace treaty, a treaty they broke by declaring her Arch-Heretic. Yes the invasion of the dead king is their new top priority, but why would they ever believe that Cat actually wants to help them? She is the EVIL villian that swam to the top upon a sea of corpses, the carrion lords choosen successor.

Yes the northern principates of Proccer will likely fall before they can react. But if Cat destroyes their armies all of Proccer might fall or even worse. Why would they ever believe something different when the dead kings invasion is such a boon for Cat and Callow?

Your whole argument is based on the fact that without those portals their fucked. But you completly miss my argument here. Cat can make all those problems alot worse and over the last few months they gave her every reason to do so. So any deal or treaty they make is incredible risky for them. And again all those are unbinding and unlawful anyway because of the conclave they had.

Also their religion is handed down to them by GODS so I highly doubt they could change that at will. Since at least all of the power of their heroes, which they now desperatly need comes from them. And I am not arguing that Cat couldn't or wouldn't help them if they gave her a good deal. But to ever accept help from her they would need to believe that to and I can't see any reason why they should. Not when she is obviously profiting from the invasion of the dead.

And it is not about hating Cat, if they believe she is an enemy, it would never occur to them to ask for her help and Cat has a pretty bad reputation. As far as I know she is the first person to reach the title of Arch-Heretic who is not a dread empress/emperor, except maybe the dead king. They call their heroes the blessed and villians the damned. So the opinion of the curch is most likely a major influence.

So why should someone they call a damned help them in their mind?

 

Quite frankly, you don't seem to grasp that in the face of the Dead King invading, pretty much none of that matters. Like, even assuming she strands all the people she takes in Arcadia, for the most part that just means that they will be killed by Fae instead of the Dead King, which is at least better in the sense that they probably won't be raised as an undead army thrown at the rest of Procer. In practice, Cat can be bound by oaths, the Pilgrim can tell when she lies, the Augur can at least possibly see what she might do, and they have ways to at least way the option--none of which actually matters because, again, Cat's the only game in town here.

They have two options. They can somehow move their people and/or armies across the continent in days instead of months or they let half the country die. However risky Cat may be as an option has no effect at all on the fact that the alternative is letting half the country die. You propose that Cat's hard to trust, because yeah, she really is--but the alternative is half the country dying.

Am I hammering that in enough here? No? Repeat after me, then--they work with Cat or half the country dies. Even if they limited the travel through portals to just escaping civilians, Cat can name her fucking price here, because they have no other choice. Heck, even stranding the armies in Arcadia would be better than doing nothing, because at least there's hope for heroic intervention letting them escape somewhere useful. As is, they're worthless.

Um, no--as was stated repeatedly, the Gods Above did not write the Book of All Things, there are a bunch of different versions of the book, and, perhaps most importantly, there have been at least three wars between the Church and State in Procer alone. The heroes do not follow the Church--unless there's a Church Named we haven't scene, which is entirely possible--they answer to the Gods Above, and, for that matter, having formerly villainous team mates is a common enough trope in setting that the Pilgrim apparently tried to use it against Cat, if in a convoluted, nonsensical, and ultimately pointless way.

Again, this doesn't matter. If eight Princes are told that the only way to save their entire Principalities and the Church tells them and every other Prince to 'lol, just let 'em die, bro', then the entire leadership of the Church is gonna come down with cases of poisoning and/or gross impalement. For that matter, keep in mind that being told that Malicia was the one filling their coffers didn't stop anyone during the Civil War from relying on her Bank.

Saying Cat has Procer by the balls in this context is a gross, absurd understatement, and I seriously don't understand how you fail to see that. Again, one more time, say it with me--they work with Cat or half the country dies. They, and anyone else with a brain, would rightly worry about that, but the fact remains that they work with Cat or half the country dies. They might rightly be concerned that Cat might betray them and want to take precautions, but they work with Cat or half the country dies. The Church might not approve, but they work with Cat or half the country dies. Basically, what I'm getting at here is that any statement you make that starts with 'But they--' does not actually matter unless it addresses the key issue that they work with Cat or half the country dies.

TL;DR: They work with Cat or half the country dies.

 

Drain is the wrong word to use, more like limited. They don't have access to 100% of their power while using simulacrums. Having tied a chunk of Black's power into that body. Having three of them set and ready to use takes some power. As for Malicia not being prepared, it happens. She mind fucks the Legions because they are an essential piece of her strategy. The mages she had with her in Keter were there for a specific purpose of stopping Cat, she wasn't too worried about them betraying her. If anything the contingencies in place were to make sure they never attacked her, not for them running away.

If you look at the fight Sabah slowly starts to give away control. When she initially pulls the beast out it's still her in control. The longer beast is out though, the more in control it gets. At the end of the fight Sabah was no longer in control. Beast may have been winning with a human mind, but once it went animal it was game over.

Only the chapters where Cat engages the summer army and forces the Queen to appear in a position of weakness to give the terms. I know you like to get selective about parts of the story that make you angry though.

Parts have been lackluster, and parts have been amazing. You just tend to think most of the amazing parts are stupid because they contradict your head canon.

You mean he's gotten better at it as he's gotten his own power-ups?

Why though? Sometimes information doesn't need to be handed to you on platter. Little clues building up to a reveal can also work. At this point we know there are artefacts and that Cat saves them for truly desperate times. It's not coming out of left field totally unexpected.

Will was more than a match for Squire 1.0. He was a match for Akua as Heiress too. He also had a strong narrative backing him that gave him an extra boost. Remember how much more effective he was without having a party? He leaned into his role and got a boost. The heroes on the crusade don't have that narrative advantage. Black points it out in his interludes this book. They don't have a true unifying theme and that dulls their powers. There are situations where they could gain that theme but Cat and Black are careful to avoid that. If you think Pilgrim amounted to nothing then you are more ignorant than I thought.

You're right. He just brings them back to life to give it another college try. Black just likes his apprentice a little more alive, it helps learn the lesson better I'd say.

No idea, but she did. You're ignoring the fact that this fight happened and she survived it without a major injury. She got lots of little ones, but she still did it.

She may be familiar with it, but I doubt Ranger was seriously trying to kill her if she's still alive.

That she's still not a full blooded elf. I don't see why that's a controversial topic. We know she is a half-elf. Just because she has training to kill elfs and has the most OP aspects ever doesn't make her a full elf. It just means she's just as dangerous or possibly, probably, more.

Sulia is the strongest combatant of the Fae who represent the entire aspect of war. I'd love to see a Sulia vs. Saint fight because it probably goes Sulia's way.

You mean it worked because it shook Akua enough for Cat to break her hold and strike.

She just knows there is a major threat. It's almost like Augur isn't all seeing and there are limitations to what she can do. That's stupid though, because as you've told us many times she is the all seeing god. It's just Erratic fucking up her own universe again. You should really take this story over. It'll be a million times better, even if it won't be finished.

We've also seen multiple people make reference to the fact that Augur just sees random shit all the time. Augur understands intentions of the past because it's pretty easy to guess intentions based on looking at the past combined with present knowledge. We know they did X and it led to Y, probably because of Z. She can know wheres forces are, but again THAT DOES NOT MEAN CORDELIA CAN RESPOND TO THEM. I know for a fact that there is a bird outside my window chirping every morning. I have the time down, I have the location down, and I can think of why he's doing it. Mostly because he's a cunt who hates sleep. Does that mean that with my advanced future knowledge I can do anything from my bed? Does that stop the bird from moving if I go outside to try and stop it? No, he'll fly to a higher branch and I'm shit out of luck. Kinda like Black moving all around Procer, or whatever is happening in the Free Cities. This situation applies to every other thing they may want to look at but have no practical application for that knowledge.

Almost like he's a master strategist.

1.) But multiple people have alluded to that and other meaningless predictions she's made.

2.) Because she sees useless random shit all the time. The fuck were they gonna do with the knowledge that two elves are going to Callow. Other than a god speed and good luck.

3.) Trying to, but again so what. Actionable intelligence versus intelligence.

4.) Then that means she can also respond to them in time right? Hey Klaus I just saw them light munitions to drop a mountain on your people, hurry and pull them back. Oh whats that? It's too late and that didn't help at all? Oh well at least I watched as it happened.

5.) As you;ve apparently missed that is sarcasm. If you read in between the sarcasm you'll see I'm arguing that they have no way to act on most of her intelligence. Not all intelligence is actionable, most of it is downright useless. Especially when they have compromised communications and no real way to shuffle around their forces. Black and Malicia have been preparing specific counters against Augur just for this reason. The Dead King has probably dealt with dozens of seers and has a few on the payroll. Hierarch might just be able to no sell Seers looking into him. We don't know, but it's not like Procer has the forces to deal with the Free Cities at the moment anyway.

Just because it's mission accomplished doesn't mean it was a good mission. I also don't care if she left Procer in the cold. They would do the same to her.

Because Black planned around Augur, by not having a plan. They theorized that Augur could only see intended actions. Thus Black's plan was to just go for whatever opportunity he saw. Augur could have told them that, but it doesn't change that Black still has multiple weak targets to choose from. Them reinforcing one just fucks another target. The chaos is what's letting them be taken by surprise though. Notice that they also know where he's going now, but they can't catch up. The armies on standby aren't exactly on standby though. Klaus' army is staying at the pass because he refuses to chase. The ex-callow invasion force is still traveling. Remember they had to leave Callow, go back through the pass, and then travel all the way to the south of the country. The foreign reinforcements also don't want to defend Procer, because they didn't sign up for that. The local forces are scrubs and getting their shit rocked by one of the strongest forces on the continent. Klaus just fucked up in thinking that anyway left would be able to deal with Black. Especially with no heroic support.

I have, that's why I've been calling you on your bullshit.

And they did respond, without the need for Augur to hand hold them. She wouldn't have made much of a difference then and your argument for her not helping isn't valid.

[/QUOTE]
No? Like, every time we see them, they're having tea together and Augur just passes on what she sees. At most, Cordy will ask for clarification. Cordelia probably could ask her, too, and most likely does, but we never see it--and we just got a chapter where the Augur called her up.

Also, if you can't see any use in immediately knowing what an enemy has done after they do it, you have a shitty imagination.
[/QUOTE]

You're right, we don't see most of their interactions. They aren't the main characters so we shouldn't. I see plenty of use in knowing what the enemy has done after they've done it. That doesn't mean it can be leveraged effectively though, as Cordelia has proven. Again, actionable intelligence.

ARE YOU IGNORING THE FACT THAT THEY SPECIFICALLY PLAN AROUND AUGUR OR DOES IT JUST NOT COMPREHEND FOR YOU.

Thanks.

 

This was never stated or even implied; Malicia had at least one running for literal years as an agent.

Her giving away control is not the point; the Beast was kicking Champions ass just fine and there was never even a hint of anything otherwise until we were told she was dead.

Except even that was only possible because Winter went along with it?

No, I just think that a lot of the parts are lackluster, because they fall apart for story reasons you ignore. 'Contradicting itself' is a flaw in a story.

So, in your eyes, resolving problems with unexplained means becomes better the more you do it? What?

Because half the story is already based on unexplained and unimplied solutions to problems and that's bad writing to begin with?

Um...no? Cat as a Squire fought him evenly in Book to and flat-out bounced him around in the fight he was fated to win. In point of fact, he did better in a fight with Cat when he was working with a group against the narrative, somehow. And Pilgrim absolutely amounted to nothing in that first fight--literally nothing he threw at Cat even touched her until he was off screen.

Yes, and when they came back they...continued to amount to nothing?

And you're saying that makes sense? Something happening in a story without any logical way to support it is not a good thing, you realize.

The Ranger actually leaves a lot of people she fights alive, though? She hunts the worthy, but doesn't always kill them--and also, now your pulling out made up stuff.

Then what's your point? Ranger can cut in half a sky filled with Summer fire by drawing her sword; how doesn't matter.

Cat with all of Winter's power was utterly manhandled by the Saint; Archer, Hakram, and Cat while she was weaker than that got Sulia on her knees and forced her to pull out the sun. So...no?

Yes...? Which would not have been possible otherwise?

You keep saying I said this. You realize that doesn't mean I actually did, right? And knowing there's a threat when Procer's risking war on four fronts is less a prediction and more observation, is the issue. Like, dude--literally all I've asked her is that the Augur know something about the threats their facing. I didn't even demand which threat. Just at least one of them.

I'm not sure what my ability to finish stories has to do with the quality of this one, either.

...No? The only one who says that is Rozalia, who calls it out as a rumor. Similarly, when she talked about the intentions of the elves, she was looking at what they were planning to do; nothing had happened yet.

And now you're putting words in my mouth--because I never even mentioned whether Cordelia could respond to them or resolve them all. My issue is that the person right next to a precog is ignorant of everything.

Then what you said doesn't matter at all...?

You mean one person, who said it was a rumor. Compare what Black and Cat had from a written, detailed report.

Except that was considered important information? And still keeps Cordelia, you know, informed?

Literally all I'm asking for is that the person who knows the precog be decently informed, so...?

I'd still accept this, is the thing, even ignoring the fact that there are ways to help with it. All I want here is that Cordelia be informed, because otherwise why does she have a precog there? I'd say the same thing if Scribe's spy network abruptly stopped working.

And I'm not asking for that? Whether they can use the intelligence or not is a completely different matter--my complaint is that the Augur has given them no intelligence.

Also, Black and Malicia's counters were to use spontaneous actions when possible, so...?

Procer being assholes or not has nothing to do with this, though? I haven't even suggested Cat save them out of the goodness of her heart--I said extort them for all they're worth. Catch up, please.

Huh? Except in all these cases, Black has had prolonged, detailed, pre-defined plans?

This is unconvincing since you seem to forget a lot.

You see no benefit to a forewarning in this case? At all?

Man, no wonder you're complaining about her not being useful--you have no understanding of the value of information.

And again, if Cordelia had the intelligence but could not act upon it, I'd be okay with that. The issue is that she knew nothing.

Please stop making things up--in every case we've seen, there were loads of plans involved and they didn't even mention planning around her, to say nothing of the fact that their actions fell within her purview.

 

So why is Cat going to the Drow, who are always described as a disorganized, backwards force every time they come up in the story. Cat doesn't need them to fight Procer, the Dead King is already doing that. I assume she means to use them to fight Malicia, but given how terrible Callow is doing internally, wouldn't she see better payoff by fixing her own problems before inviting a new unknown into the mix?

She could return, find allies in the goblins, restore her army and administration, try to sway Black's legion that's stuck in Callow, plot against Malicia's defense against Ashur and her support among the high lords, etc. I just don't understand why the Drow are so important. They might be an interesting piece of world building, but they shouldn't be Cat's priority right now. Even the mercenary dregs in Mercantis might be more use to Cat than the Drow if used properly and without trust.

I mean even if the Drow ally with Cat, how do they travel? Going through the Golden Bloom antagonizes the OP elves. Underground is controlled by the dwarves. Using Cat's portals means she has to wait for them to muster their army, which only prolongs her absence and Callow's near anarchy.

 

I bought the whole Champion beating The Captain; the narrative cues were all there. I just hate it being off screen