Actually, losing her wings kept Sulla from flying as well, remember? Not that that necessarily means anything, since half the powers Cat got from her Mantle we things the Fae never showed, but the fact remains.

More to the point...

This isn't really true at all. Like, just to start with--remember that Cat doesn't regenerate, as such; she has a Creationally-Fixed Body, or whatever the fuck, wherein her physical form can't really be changed; if bits an pieces are cut off, her mantle flows in and just remakes it. The fact that the drow can just negate that at will is kind of startling.

But, more to the point, let's actually look at what he did. Acid AOE that overcame Cat's regeneration and ate through most of her body, lasers that were able to blast right through her ice, shackles that negated her ability to change shape, counter-healing, some unknown AOE attack that shattered buildings, etc.

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that pretty much any other Named would have just flat-out died right there? Now, okay, that's making an exception for the Mage Named who could almost certainly magibabble their way out of that and the two oldest heroes on the continent, the Saint and the Pilgrim, would probably be fine--but if the other twenty heroes in the Crusade had fought Urulam, they all would have died, separately or together.

Now, sure, if Cat had a bunch of power's she's never displayed, she might have done better, but let's be fair--if Urulam had any foreknowledge of how her powers worked at all, she'd have died regardless, and she walked into this with a much greater advantage than he had. Namely, she's BFFs with Ivah, the former second in command of an Inner Ring Sigil and has four thousand drow behind her besides. Given the knowledge that each side walked into here, one side did vastly better than the other.

And, again--this is the boss of the weakest Sigil in the weakest City in the weakest Ring in the Everdark and he probably could have soloed most of the Crusade we've seen thus far.

Also, yeah, pretty much. The existence of normal soldiers ceased to matter awhile ago.

 

That is why powerlevels kill stories. At least there is no quantifier quite yet.

„Ahahaha, you can never kill me. For I have 5 sidestories and TWO mainplotlines!!!!!“

- someone about to get killed

 

That is has Masego views it. Cat thinks of it as regeneration and literally calls it that in her head. We've seen plenty through the past bunch of chapters that most of what's holding Cat back is her own self imposed limitations on what her body is. That the draw have essentially a Night-spell to negate a fairly common strong Secret isn't surprising. Cat accepting that it works on her is.

I mean the other 20 Heroes would have or did die to Akua puppeting Cat's body so that's (sadly) not much of a bar. That said I do think they would have done better, especially if they were cautious and treated the three drow standing in the open less as three BDFs and more as three combat mages all prepped to throw down.

Here we'll agree. Cat blew her informational advantage. But again I do believe the Crusade would do better, if only because they'd proceed with caution and be clever. As opposed to running straight at them and trying to fight top tier drow with mid tier drow tricks.

 

I have only one problem with that thought. We didn't see a top tier Drow. We saw a mid tier one that put into perspective just how much of a garbage tier the previous Drow were. Beating the dead horse but this was the boss of the lowest rung sigil in the city. The city which is on the edge of the territory of the actually scary folks.

 

That doesn't describe most of the Heroes we've seen. The Crusade's main 5 (Saint, Pilgrim, Witch, Champion, and the White Knight) are the only ones I'd bet on winning. The Silver Huntress was trained by Ranger, so there's a possible surprise sixth. Beyond that? Caution and cleverness is more the schtick of the villains in this story than the heroes, and the twenty other heroes in the Crusade are lacking in power and cleverness. If one of them somehow scraped a win, it wouldn't be out of their own merits but instead some sort of narrative bullshit empowering them.



Also I agree that while Cat still sucks at using her mantle, Urulan was much stronger than I expected and than it probably should have been. The jump went from Mighty being a light spar to actually kinda life-threatening (though beatable). I figured the Mighty would eventually get to that point, Urulan feels way too early for that. I expected him to demand attention and effort, but for him to still be clearly outclassed.

We can say that Urulan might've been able to kill Cat if it knew her capabilities better, but Cat also would've kicked its ass much harder if she was ready for the acid tricks, regeneration inhibition, etc. In terms of pure power and capability, I think Cat could take Warlock. But if they actually fought? Warlock would win 9 times out of 10, because he's a better fighter than Cat is. Guy's a fucking terror (plus you've got the whole warding specialist vs fae thing).



Just kinda sketching out power levels here... we've got the Dead King on top (1), followed by the Queen of Summer (2), then Ranger (3), Skein and Spellblade (4), Saint Pilgrim and Warlock (5), Champion and White (6), The Lone Swordsman and probably Hedge and the Ashen Priestess (7), and finally the dinky tagalong heroes of the Crusade (8). Just kindof a rough outline.

I'm expecting the Sve to be on par with the Queen, maybe a step down to Ranger. That's the tier of ancient monsters who aren't the ancient monster, and that's where the hype puts her. But where are the Mighty? The ones we've seen thus far are like Tier 8 if not 9. The Stalwart Paladin from the prologue was more of a threat than Berelun (blah blah narrative power). Urulan is the lowest of the tier of real Mighty. He rates a 6, when I think we all expected a 7 or high end 8. Y'know, a natural progression. Hey, these guys are starting to be worth something Cat so quit fucking around. But he punched way above that... so what are the rest of these guys like? Cat can't kill a Tier 5. She's tried. Saint sent her running. Sure, she's gotten a bit better since then (though she still couldn't do shit against the Skein or Spellblade), but are we gonna hit that wall in Lotow? That's ridiculous.

Sure, in theory Cat should be able to beat all of these fuckers. She should be on Tier 2, but she sucks at using her powers so she's punching well below her weight class. And yeah, if she's ever going to beat the Sve this arc has to be Cat learning to stop sucking, but I dunno. Not feeling this.

That said, if hitting the wall in Lotow means all this development happens in Lotow and we skim to Holy Tvarigu... I think we'll all agree to take it.

 

Pretty much just an aftermath chapter; the only thing of real substance was the talk with Akua, which was good in the sense that it makes it clear Cat hasn't been a complete and total idiot.

On the other hand, it feels kind of like last chapter, in that it's almost an overcorrection? I mean, it might have been necessary, in the sense that it kind of did need to be made clear that each and every decision Cat's made regarding Akua wasn't utterly stupid--but it very much felt like we were going down the list checking each and every decision, like the author was tired of people (like me) complaining that each and every decision was stupid. But it just comes off as word from on-high that it's not stupid, rather then the most satisfying 'Have Cat not make stupid decisions.'

As is, I hope/assume Akua's figured out a way around this, because Cat's still making dumb decisions, she's just getting away with them.

Except that doesn't make any sense at all? It's not like Urulam went 'Mhahahaha--but how will you deal with this!? A magic spell that stops regeneration!' and Cat went 'Oh shit, but I regenerate!' Urulam just pointed his magic wand at her silently and she stopped healing.

Stealthy pretty much covered this, but yeah--this wasn't a top-tier drow and that really doesn't describe any of our heroes except the main ones. Stealthy says the main five could do it--the Pilgrim, Saint, Witch, White Knight, and Champion--but I dunno; we've seen all of the Champion's Aspects and all but one of the Knight's, and I don't think either of them could have survived this.

 

Ryuugi has slowly been converting me to the side of 'what the fuck is this' and I don't like it.

This is power creep, no bones about it, and particularly bad power creep at that. We still don’t know what the fuck makes Ranger relevant with a pair of swords - all her abilities seem to do is ramp her up into an unhittable swordsman, and somehow the Dead King basically throws his hands up and whines about not being able to kill her despite having creatures like the Spellblade and Skein on tap.
Unless Perfect and Transcend have some seriously nonsense upper limits, Ranger is still a swordsman at the end of the day - I don’t buy the Summer Queen not being able to hand her entire ass back to her, let alone be wounded.

Cat has the entire Winter mantle. The Winter King was able to basically instagib her with as much power just by basically letting loose. Nobody but Saint/Ranger level fighters should be able to survive even being in her presence, let alone almost kill her.

tl;dr Ranger turned power levels into a dumb meme, and I desperately miss Book 2.

 

I actually dont mind ranger in that sense as we have a hero with almost a similar theme. The Mirror Knight's entire shtick was that with every dawn his body gets stronger in every aspect. Saint even stated that given another year or two eith his ability he would be her level and then go beyond it. This will keep going until he drops dead. Ranger works on a similar concept except instead of a gradual climb she jumps in spurts during combat. Both of their growth paths are timeline based, we just get to see them at different points.

 

I thought that Ranger being half elf is what made her so dominant. The elf ability to negate laws of physics or whatever combined with Learn and centuries of experience probably means she can counter other people's abilities and Aspects, so she reduces fights to a level she can play at.

 

We can talk about power creep and various other problems until we all turn blue in the face but that's not the real talking point.

We got some Cat/Indrani and that's nice.

 

Refuge: 2 for 2 for churning out Named thots.

 

Well, this chapter was...eh. Admittedly cool, as long as you're adamant in not actually thinking about anything that happens. It should be noted, however, that I fucking suck at not thinking about shit, and if you apply any thought at all, this chapter collapses in on itself.

Let's talk about that.

Just to start with, before the talk happens, we get a discussion--basically a boast--that Cat's going to take them all down. Truthfully, it rings hella fucking hollow even before we find out anything about it, because let's be real, Cat's the punk as bitch here. Like, when she says this:

I nearly fucking laughed. I mean, she has reason not to mention the details, but everyone on that list who didn't wreck her utterly is a fucking child compared to the people in this room. But let's put that aside.

The plan Cat comes up with, in the end, is an interesting, cool, even smart one...kind of, but I'll get to that. The plan is that, instead of fighting the Mighty of Great Lotow, Cat opened up a portal beneath them all and threw them into Arcadia, where she intends to leave them for awhile, until and unless they swear pretty much utter obedience to her in a way that's basically a life of slavery.

And right from the start, I'm confused, because Cat opens the plan by doing this:

Which involves cutting through the central pillar of a city with her gates. Like, just to start with--since when can her gates do that? How the fuck has this not come up before? Like, holy shit; you can cut things, and on a major scale, with your gates? Bitch, that should have come up before. Fuck, that should be your main power. Can you cut people in half with that shit?

But leaving aside the fact that we got basically a vague side mention of the biggest fucking power-up Cat has gotten since the mantle, here's the thing:

It's a stupid fucking plan. Like, there's the moral stuff, sure--again, Cat's basically threatening these people with slavery, which is a storyline she should have been warned about a whole fucking bunch. There's the fact that, even if these guys accept, they will hate and work against her, wherever and however they can. There's the fact that, right after talking about giving the drow a good reason to work together, she just gave them an even more immediate reason to do so. And that's all a big deal.

But more importantly, she just put the fucking drow in Arcadia. In fucking Winter, no less! A bunch of shadow-wielding corpse eaters just got thrown into the corpse of a kingdom of endless darkness. But even assuming that's a brilliant idea, there's two things to keep in mind. First, that Cat's gates are not the only way in or out of Arcadia. And second, much more importantly, Arcadia is not empty.

What the fuck happens if any of these guys run into a Fae? Like, pretty much any Fae, really. Urulam, the weakest of these guys, was a harder motherfucker than any Fae fight we got that wasn't the Winter King, the Summer Queen, and maybe Sulla, with the Summer Sun out. There's now seven guys stronger than him together in one place; any Fae these guys run into is going to die. And then we're gonna have to find out what happens if a drow eats a Fae. Because if any of these guys get any skill with gates from that shit, Cat's fucked here.

And that's not even getting into the other obvious issue, which is that Cat's entire argument is essential 'We all need to figure out a way to escape the dwarves', and she then totally put these guys out of the way of the dwarves.

Like, her offer right not is 'swear yourselves into slavery and fight a foe you don't think you can beat', which she's made unnecessary for them, and which is an idea that gets worse and worse the longer these guys are left in Arcadia. Which, by the way, has time that can flow faster than in real world, so a day for her could seriously fuck up everything.

The absolute best outcome here is that they're all stupid and stay right where they are until Cat comes back without ever looking around, at which point she just has to deal with a bunch of enslaved monsters that fucking hate her, which she's been warned against. This plan is downhill from that.

Seriously, this is what I meant last chapter, where we can be told from on high that every decision Cat makes isn't dumb--or she could just stop making stupid plans.

(And again, seriously, how the fuck did we just brush over the biggest powerup she's gotten in Book 4? You can cut through shit with those, bitch?)

 

Damn it @Ryuugi Shi.

I read a chapter, enjoy it a ton and then come straight here when I know I shouldn't. Like, I know you're right but it sucks.

 

Ditto. I'm very good at not thinking about things and going with the flow, however, I rather enjoy Ryuugi's mild rants. I've no clue how he can keep up with all these details though. Like the Sulla/wing thing. I don't even rememberwho that is, bro.

 

So I'm in the middle of these camps; I turn my brain off a bit and just try to enjoy the flow, but Ryuugi has put Sheen fairly decently why this book has not been that enjoyable. These are issues that have plagued the story from the start though, all the way back to the completely unnecessary yet YA novel obligatory Wargames School in book one

 

To be fair, it was actually Sulia, the Princess of High Noon--even I forget her name, though partially because we also have the Proceran capital, which is, what? Salia? But I remember mostly because it happened in the chapter High Noon, where Masego became the Hierophant*, the Woe fought a Fae Princess, and Thief stole the Sun. Remember 'Yoink'? At the time, it was an awesome, extremely memorable moment. Hell, not gonna lie, for a long time, the Fae Wars were my favorite part of the story.

But they, uh...haven't really aged well, in a lot of ways? Or, at least, a reread of certain parts of it makes trends more obvious and plotlines more underwhelming in hindsight. Like, that's the main reason I remember all this stuff; there's parts I really like that I go back to reread, or something I try to remember that I look up. Hell, I've tried writing several fanfics for this series, including a PJO crossover, a CCS crossover, a My Death Flags Show No Sign of Ending crossover (how's that for obscure?), and even helped brainstorm a KH crossover.

It's just that the more I do that, the more I find myself going 'Oh wow...absolutely nothing came of this plotline at all!' or 'Huh, this is...kind of weird in context?' or 'Wait, does the author remember this part?' Like, remember after the Battle of the Camps when the Pilgrim supposedly threw away a chance for political leverage to try to start up a redemption story? And Cat apparently deduced that entire storyline in moments with no real evidence and we got a chapter that was, like, half internal monologue? And then the Pilgrim, one of the strongest heroes with a bunch of powers, was just going to stay in Callow, while the Saint disappeared to parts unknown, supposedly going AWOL in Callow itself? Yeah, nothing really came of that. Like, in the end, while literally all of the Woe were away and there was nothing stopping them, they both just kind of...left. It's weird.

And stuff like that hits the Fae storyline hard, just in context. 'You know, when you think about it...' is the bane of this story in a lot of ways. Like I said before, this most recent chapter was cool, unless you think about it or remember the context or anything like that.

Because this whole 'Ha! I've trapped them in the desolate plains of Winter! An empty, lifeless plane--they'll never escape! They'll have to struggle just to survive!' thing? That, uh, not how that works. Like, in reality, these guys could probably find food and shelter just by by saying they will, to say nothing of tracking down other Fae. And you might say 'Hey, it's not that easy,' but, um...

It's kind of that easy. Does anyone remember our introduction to Arcadia and the Fae and how they interact with stories? Because here's a quick refresher. See, we had a Winter Rider that just one-sidedly wrecked Cat's shit, because he was, you know, a demigod, but she forced him to monologue all his plans and motivations by, uh...just kind of prompting him, too? And then she took all his powers away and utterly wrecked his shit and made him run away in terror by...saying "You'll never get away with this!" Which just completely story-locked him into defeat.

Simply put, the Fae do not just lose to stories--they lose to even just the suggestion of stories. And you might think 'Well, that was just some rider--for the stronger Fae, it's not so easy', but, uh, remember Sulia? Remember what it took to outstory her? Because in case you forgot, it took like, totally feeling like it, man. The Woe took her down with the story of stealing fire from the gods. They did this with no real build up at all whatsoever, no real prep, no previous encounters, no heroic storylines, nothing; the sum-total of their plan was 'Have Thief try to rob Sulla > succeed.' This was the amount of setup needed to take down the Princess of Highest Noon, in Arcadia, in Summer, beneath the Summer Sun itself.

So the whole 'They're trapped in the freezing desolation of Winter! They must give into Cat's demands, or how else will they survive!?' loses a lot of weight, because the answer is...probably just by accident? That's literally how Cat beat her first Fae, after all. If one of these guys goes 'I will have my revenge!', Arcadia will just bend over backwards to keep them alive. If one of them vows to escape, they'll probably manage the same.

And that's just based on book 3; if you go by book 2, it gets even worse. Out of curiosity, I checked--Arcadia comes up in two big ways in Book 2. First, Will goes into Arcadia to train and spends a year being chased by the Wild Hunt, which he survives just fine, stronger than ever, and leaves on his own**. Then, we have Black, who used it to get around fast; Warlock opened a gate on one-side and Black just made a way out on his own, apparently. I thought maybe he used the portal in Refuge, but it was stated otherwise; I guess you can just escape Arcadia if you really want to?

So the answer to the question of 'How are these seven demigods going to get by if left in Winter?' is 'Just fine, probably.' Like, if one of them goes hunting, they'll probably come across Fae to eat soon. But there are no fae near Winter, you say? Shit like time and distance don't matter in Arcadia if you have even the vaguest hint of a story.

And, for the record, these guys have a shit ton going for them right now, because Cat's kind of bent over backwards to make this bad for herself. Like, how many Classic Evil boxes did she check here? Betrayal under a truce, proclamation of subjugation, doomsday weapon, trapping people in an 'inescapable' death trap that she then literally walked away from after taunting them, preparing to turn and conquer their territory while they're kept away by her own mechanization, making statements of victory multiple times, before the plan was complete and after it seemingly succeeded, and probably more I could find if I cared.

Remember when Black said this?

What are you even doing right now, Cat? You have literally used parts of this story to crush Fae before and now you're lining it all up? Even in Creation, even with a normal villain, I'd say they were taking their lives in their hands with this shit, but a fae villain? In Arcadia? In the place that Cat got beaten by Akua for having a bad story?

Like, the narrative is still kind of a joke in most of this story, so she'll probably be fine, but holy shit. And the worst part is? Black recently got killed (???) for trying shit like this against cultures he didn't really understand.

TL;DR: A lot of what Cat's been doing in Book 4 is really weird if you remember much of anything in the previous books.

*One of the things that bugs me in hindsight, by the way? For all the outright ridiculous shit that Masego does, his rise is surprisingly meh:

And boom, godhood. Like, I kind of wish he'd become the Hierophant when Sulia burnt out his eyes so there seemed like more weight to it. For all the shit I give Cat, the scene where she becomes a Fae was honestly awesome, from the King ripping out her heart to her visions afterwards. It felt real, storywise, even if she's drawn about eight different powerups at almost random from it at this point. I wanted something like that for Masego, too. Instead, he just kind of wanders in and goes 'Hey guys, I'm a god now.'

Keep in mind that within ten chapters of this scene, Masego literally burns fire and traps the Summer Sun in minutes before holding it hostage, on top of no-selling the Domains of Fae Dukes, twice.

**On the topic of random plotlines that just got dropped, remember this one? Will had a whole interlude that was both named for and built up his third Aspect--Triumph, with which he was sure he'd win. Remember that Aspect? No?

That's because not only did he never actually use it, we don't even know what it does. Again, we never findout what the main antagonist of Book 2's secret trump card does, even after getting a chapter literally named after it.

 

If I remember correct they subdued a minor lord or something to make them an exit portal. It was later mentioned that the wandering bard had warned the fairies to hide I think to delay them.

Tall, with impossibly clear blue eyes and hair that looked more like flowing darkness than anything materially possible. Those eyes, I noted, were wide and showing white. The Fae looked at us and hesitated, then jerked.

“No,” it called out in a voice that was like velvet made sound, even when taken by terror.

Something dragged it deeper into the snow storm and there was a scream, then a sickening crunch. (book 2 chapter 33)

Black had been vague when I’d asked him how he’d managed the trip, though he’d at least confirmed Warlock had not been the one to open the way through the other realm. Likely they’d summoned and coerced one of the Fae, which I’d had no idea was actually possible until now. (book 2 chapter 36)

“Oh, she hasn’t noticed,” Bard said. “As Fate would have it, the Big Guy would have. If he’d arrived in time to hear Heiress speak the word ‘draw’, anyway. But he was detained in Arcadia when getting there. Couldn’t find someone to open a way out.”

“A fortnight ago,” the dark-haired hero spoke slowly, “you appeared covered in snow.”

“Lovely people, the Fae,” Almorava mused. “Live closer to the Story than anybody else. They know better than to ignore the warning of a mysterious cloaked stranger.” (book 2 Chapter nemeses)

In the end I do not think you can really argue with the story should do this or that, simply because like magic we have no real idea about the rules of how the story works. I mean you argue that she forced the rider of the host in a monologue only by saying that one sentence. You might be right, but at the same time you completely ignore how that fight started. The Fae invaded Marcheford through a portal and trapped Cat, Masego and Hakram in Arcadia. How did that change the story? Could they have forced the monologue without that? Can you create stories like that if you are not named against the fae? How does narrative weight work here? Keep in mind in the previous book Cat drew the sword from the stone as an orphan and the squire, did that give her narrative weight as the future queen of Callow choosen by the story?

The same can be said about the fight against Sulia. From one perspective there was hardly any setup. But from a different point of view, you have the weight of Cat acquiring a Winter fae title and the whole story behind that backed by the winter king. By having played Sulias role in the Wintercourt and therby changing the whole story of the war between summer and winter. By having Callow fight both courts at the same time and changing the story Sulia expected at the battle and then their "duel". We have no actual idea how any of those events shifted the narrative weight to make the victory over sulia possible, so saying Cat could have done the same if she randomly met Sulia without any of that and won who knows? We really don't know that or which previous events changed that story. After all Sulia had to retract her armies from attacking a city in Callow to fight Cat.

So to say that she checkes all those boxes on the evil overlord list and has to lose because of that? Do we actual know that? Is the portal trick actually a doomsday weapon story wise? Cat definitly broke the negotiation in good faith, but what does this mean narratively? Say if a hero broke such negotiations to free slaves or something would that change the narrative? Do the Mighty Drow count as Named for narrativ purposes? If yes wouldn't the dwarves get the villian role with their intention to kill them all and take their land and have to lose because of that? Or are the drow default evil so the dwarves can't get that role? Are the stories in this part of Calernia different with the shattered culture of the drow, since at least the whole story of the orcs changed when the Miezans came? Or are the drow with their horrible murder culture always on the bad side narratively and therefore cannot take advantage of Cats more or less villainos plan? Or could Cat fall into an antihero role here by saving a part of the drow from annihilation?

I am not arguing that Cats plan is good or anything but we honestly know so little about how Arcadia looks right now and the narrative roles of the drow and Cat here that I don't thing you can say this has to happen because of narrative.

 

Been thinking about starting A Practical Guide to Evil. The story sounds interesting enough, but do any of the regulars here mind giving a brief summary of why they think this story is the shit (or just shit, as might be the case)?

And while most of the summary feels kind of overwrought, this line truly is a gem:

In the heart of the conquered lands the most dangerous man alive sat across an orphan girl and offered her a knife

 

We don't think it's shit, we're just disappointed. Lots of wasted potential and shonen like power creep along with some unfortunate YA novel cliches

 

It's actually pretty good character-wise, and it's definitely a fun read. It's only when you start analysing the logic that you start to notice some faults, if you can ignore those then you'll probably like it. No harm in trying it out anyway.