What if, when all the old Muggle Empires were collapsing, the magical ones remained.

Its just an idea that popped into my head, rather than have Harry escape the super US where everything is fair, magically have most of still part Britain, with the appropriate parts belonging to France and so forth.

This is in no way meant to be the plot of a fic, or a challenge, but just an idea, for a way to break away from the norm.

So really, in the eyes of magical Europe, only they exist, the rest of the world, apart from the Asian countries, are all provincial colonies.

Possibly, to use it more as an important plot line, you could have a lot of tension between all the big empires, Britain and France mainly, as they tended to have a lot of colonies in the same regions and countries as far as I remember. Perhaps the other empires are leaning very heavily on Britain to deal with Voldemort, possibly there is conflict over areas of land, money, random raids over borders, etc, that are heading towards an major wizarding war.

Let me know what you think please.

 

I like it. I've been thinking along the same lines. In PR I mentioned Commonwealth several times. I didn't mean that purely Geographic, but as an actual political coalition.

If I ever write anything in US, I certainly won't have super/fair/democratic Ministry of Magic under their president, but most likely, a series of enclaves without much contact with the muggle society (imagine colonists arriving to a new, empty land; they certainly won't live next door to muggles if they don't have to).

 

Wait...

What magical colonies? How did magical Europe suddenly conquer the rest of the magical world?

Now, I know that the Muggles were able to do it because of superior technology and an enlightened world-view. But the magical European world is backwards, and it definately didn't have an Industrial Revolution that made it leap ahead nor a machine gun.

Moreover, if you truly want to write a fic with a magical empire, you're going to have to put some white man's burden and racism in there to make it realistic. After all, if magical Europe's conquered the world, make them think that all Europeans have better magic. Hell, you could make that a true statement in your story (it'd be interesting, but I wouldn't read it). One nice view would be to have a lot of conflict where Harry tries to create an independence movement for the colonies.

Let's twist the idea a bit. Why isn't magical Europe a colony of magical India or China or France? Make Harry the head of an independence movement.

 

The advantage of magical Europe - wand. Wand is taken from European folklore, not African or Asian or whatever. Without wands, those people probably had to rely on potions, rituals and such. It's not hard to imagine Europeans flying on their brooms all over the world and blasting away natives with their structured spells - the same way European muggles did with their rifles.

 

*randomly inserts himself into the conversation: That makes sense, I mean how many rituals or sacrificial magics/spells are really used in JKR's realm, not to many, one reason is that they take to long or have to many requirements. The only time I've ever seen some big ritual used is as a prerequiset(sp?) to the actual fighting. I can actually see a whole bunch of the natives trying to stoke the ritual fires only for the much more practical European witches and wizards to appraperate(sp?) in and demolish their settlement.

 

Firstly Bele, what is Magical Europe backwards? What gives you that idea? As I've said before, magic is not something that can have a revolution or evolution or whatever, its something that is made up of the knowledge passed down through time. Where would have the better magical culture I wonder...the country with a history traceable back thousands of years, well into B.C. or the country that has a history traceable for 200 years. Hmmm, difficult question that.

And why would Magical Europe have conquered the magical areas of the teratories under Muggle control? Hmmm, perhaps they piggybacked on the muggle invasion. It wouldn't take too long IMO to over take the magical population of a country if you rule the muggle portion, or at least have complete freedom to move around. This would be the case for European wizards, but not for the native wizards.

And really, "Why isn't magical Europe a colony of magical India or China or France?"

Hmmm, lets ponder why the latter is the case? Maybe because its in Europe? Would that make sense?

As for the other countries, no specific reason, apart from the fact that the culture would have been influenced by the conquerers. What we know of the canon universe indicates no real amounts of chinese or indian culture.

 

If Magical America were still a part of the British Magical Empire, I doubt we'd have gotten along by now without hearing about it. Keeping in mind that Ireland is still a part of the Magical United Kingdom and that we know about that.

I doubt that Magical Europe maintains any sort of colonies--the primary reason for maintaining colonies from the 'muggle' standpoint (that is, reality) was for economic gains. There would be no real reason for Magical Europe to want to 'colonize' Magical India, or Magical Africa, or Magical America (north and south), because there would be nothing to be gained, aside from formalizing a magical government in a foreign land.

 

On the other hand, ethnocentrism played a large part. The Purebloods of old could have viewed the other peoples of the world in the same light, and decided to spread their own "correct" way of living, thinking, magic, etc.

 

Your idea makes sense, Mordecai. As we've seen previously, much of the Wizarding World is run by the wealthy, and I highly doubt that Wizards turned a blind eye while the Muggle world created vast empires that encircled the globe. Most of you are using the United States as an example of why there couldn't be any present-day magical colonies, but this in itself is a fallacy. The United States (as grand a country as it is - mark the sarcasm, please) was born of revolutionaries and rebels, something that is somewhat unique in the history of Colonialism.

Infact, many colonies are still present today (I believe Madagascar is one?) and most have only gained independance in the last 30 to 40 years.

I think, this may be the stupidest post I've ever read.

Firstly, Europe (Britain, France, Holland, Spain & Portugal etc...) DID conquer the world. It was once said that the Sun never set on the British Empire because their holdings spanned the entire globe. There is nothing to suggest that the Magical world had no part in this, why else would there be a Magical Academy at SALEM (part of one of the 13 Colonies right?).

The Magical European world is NOT backwards. They don't need the technology that Muggles use and still have the same or better quality of life (and they do use good Muggle ideas, the Knight Bus for example). And the Industrial Revolution was NOT a catalyst for colonialism, but for EMIGRATION. Most of the colonies were already established by the time Europe was mechanised.

There is no racism that we can see in the Magical world, even Draco Malfoy - the Pureblooded bigot is friends with Blaise Zabini (WHO IS BLACK). Cedric Diggory was dating CHO CHANG, and PARVATI PATIL is one of the most desireable girls at Hogwarts. There is no basis for racism in the magical world (other than the Blood Purity problem), as we can assume each culture has it's own way to practise magic, or that the Wand (since 382 BC) had made it's way around the world (without the barriers of Land or Sea - Wizards do have Apparition and Portkeys) LONG before the Muggles discovered America.

And lastly, Magical Europe CANNOT have been colonised by India or China, as we can clearly see the Roman/Greek influences on their culture (Latin-based spells, names... their LANGUAGE). I'll give you one life-line on this though; if you can point ANYWHERE in Harry Potter (Books, or Movies) where Minerva McGonagall (hmm, Minerva... an oddly Roman name) wears a Sari or Shalwar Kameez... I'll agree with you. Until then, put some logical thought into your responses.

 

Orson Scott Card has something like this in his Alvin Maker series.

(Yeah I know... Card is a hack, yadda yadda yadda... Whatever.)

Still one of the ideas he wove into his tales was the speculation that due to Cromwell and the rampant religious persecution that went on in Europe those who had "talents" or magic left for the "New World" where such things were if not accepted, somewhat easier to hide. Something worth digging into for a Harry Potter fic might be the idea that many of the Purebloods are weaker than they could be in England because all the infighting and hiding from religious authorities whittled away at the bloodlines, whereas in the colonies and other parts of the world witches and wizards still in hiding have increased in numbers and power....

Or maybe not, meh. @@'

--bornagainpenguin (who swears he had a point here somewhere...)

 

Actually, according to wikipedia, the idea of a wand came from Egypt. And they also thought (in Europe) that Egypt had more magical expertise; this would mean that the Middle East would dominate the world, going by your reasoning. Moreover, Rowling gives far too little information about the magic of other cultures for you to know that a wand is a machine gun, although it's an admittingly plausible idea for you to write out the challenge.

In addition, since wands were invented thousands of years ago (according to this article and my memory of the length Ollivander's shop has been around), then magical Europe would've conquered the world long ago. Yet the myths of magic definately don't hint that all of the world was under the control of Europe in the time Christ.

Even if I'm wrong, it would stand to reason that Rome is the magical capital of the world, and that all European magical nations are under its sway. Colonial empires don't exist. The world is just under one government.

The fact that they're 100 years behind muggle technology. Going on this, there's no reason magicians in Europe have conquered the rest of the world. Rowling gives far too little information to assume this; you can assume the opposite. And there's no reason why they'd want to - as DarkSov pointed out. Remember, in magical Europe, nationalism and a lust for gold - the two things that caused colonism - don't exist.

Oh, you mean China and India and Egypt and Iran and Iraq, countries that have centuries more history than Europe?

You assume that the magical world and muggle world are connected. They aren't. Remember that more than a century after the telephone was invented, wizards still have no clue what it is. A wizard in Britain doesn't care at all about what his muggle counterparts in Britain are doing, and this applies to colonies. I'd think that the wizarding and muggle worlds are so widely separated that there's very little influence each one has on the other.

Let's say France was able to conquer Britain in the Napoleonic Wars. Just because the muggle population was conquered wouldn't mean the wizarding population was conquered. Wizarding Britain would have life go on just like before, after Napoleon took over Britain. Hell, most likely they wouldn't even notice a difference.

But, if you ignore the chasm between the wizarding and muggle worlds and give the two governments a close relationship - which can be readily done, since Rowling doesn't give much information - you'll have a good structure for a colonial empire. BUT you must give wizards a great incentive for them to go around the world creating a magical empire. As I previously said in this post - and Darksov also said - the muggle incentives simply don't work for the wizarding world. AND you must make wands machine guns - after jumping over the logical pitfalls of this.

My mistake. I should've said magical Britain.

True. I'd agree that Europe isn't under the rule of a foreign continent.

Strangely enough, wizards have turned a blind eye to muggle technology like TVs and the Internet. If you think that all muggle social systems are beneath you, of course you're going to ignore muggle political systems. And canon supports that fact that the wizarding elite thinks muggle social systems beneath them with their obvious racism against Muggle-borns.

Actually, let's use the U.S. as an example. Why in the world would a magical government give a shit about colonizing the U.S.? Why in the world would a magician like to move there to colonize the place? The answer is that he wouldn't. As you yourself said, Avitus, there was no Industrial Revolution in magical Europe to encourage wizarding emigration out of Europe.

Name one bigger than an island. There are none. And no, Madagascar is not a colony (think before typing, the answer to your question is just one search away).

Let me give you a short history lesson. Colonies came about because they were thought economically viable and necessary for national greatness. They weren't. Then they were all abandoned.

This is the entire point of the argument. Just because muggles have conquered something doesn't mean wizards have. Great job restating what the question being debated is. Look to all the text around you for why this isn't true.

You, my friend, need to separate fanon from canon. Salem is not a magical school. There's no canon evidence for that. The reason that Salem exists is most likely as a testament to muggle stupidity (after all, wizards do like to prove muggles weird). It doesn't prove that there were actually witches there or that the U.S. was a wizarding colony. For all we know, it may be little more than a small musuem that sells T-shirts.

Hey, did you know that there's a Canadian embassy in the U.S.!? That must mean that the U.S. is a colony of Canada!

You just contradicted yourself here. First you said that they don't need the technology muggles use. Then you said that, no, there are good muggle ideas that wizards use - such as with the Knight Bus. Please reread what you type before posting it.

Anyways, you've just proven that the wizarding world is backwards - all Muggle devices that they use were invented a century beforehand. Proof: communication devices. Muggles now-a-days have cell-phones. With cell phones, it's phenomenally easier to communicate - it's just a button away. If the wizarding world wasn't so backwards, it'd have adapted cell-phones before the muggles did.

Avitus, emigration is colonism. Look at all the colonies in the world. Every single one had emigration from the homeland to control and profit from the colony. Also see what I said about the U.S. And yes, most of the colonies were already established by the Industrial Revolution. Except for 90% of Africa. And Asia. And the Middle-East. Oops, there goes most of the colonies.

Besides, those colonies were established because Europe had the advantage of military superiority. There's no proof that the wizarding world has military superiority over other magical cultures - after all, it's main weapon - the wand - has been spread out throughout the world, as you stated.

The racism comes from pure logic. Human nature always thinks that those different from you are inferior. That's how racism comes about. That's how the blood purity issue comes about. That's how religious wars come about. That's why women and men are treated differently even now.

Now, when this innate thinking is reinforced by the fact that those different from you actually are inferior because you've conquered them, racism comes about.

Where's the evidence? History - everybody in the world has been racist since the beginning of time. There's no reason to think wizards are different. Hell, I'm racist. When I see a person, skin color automatically plays a role in how I judge them. Nobody in the world isn't racist.

Let's go to your examples. Let's say that there are magical empires. There's no canon evidence that Draco Malfoy is a friend of Blaise Zabini - once again you've confused fanon and canon. This opinion of Patil only comes from Harry's POV, which is undoubtedly biased. And the Diggory-Chang dating can be a Romeo-Juliet type of story where Diggory's family doesn't approve because of racism.

But there's another, far overarching explanation for all this behavior. This is that there's no racism because they're no colonies. The Europeans respect those of different ethnicities because they've proved that they deserve respect; they've defended themselves from being colonized.

Of course, right now there's no basis. But you've gotten off-track from the topic. I was saying that Mordecai's idea gives the basis for racism. If we accept the idea that there obviously isn't any racism in the magical world, obviously colonial empires don't exist.

Also you've just proven that European wizards aren't able to conquer other wizards, since they all have the same technology. Once again, you completely contradict yourself while posting.

And the basis for racism would, of course, be race and human nature. What else do you think it would be?

 

Hmm, I wonder if this is at all stemmed from your rant in the A Second Chance at Life thread.

Before I get started on this i want to put the first thing I saw in the thread that is a flat out lie.

So Salem is a magical school in canon not just fanon and this supports the idea that yes there is magical society outside of Europe.


OK at the root of it I love the idea it's something I think could make for either a very interesting background to a story maybe ever the base of a plot. The idea that it would be Britain and Europe ruling the world though is where I don't really agree, especially since you yourself mentioned magical empires outlasting their non-magical counterparts. All of that is also assuming like Belerdorhan said that magical and muggle governments are so deeply connected that magical government rule would expand when the muggle ones do.

Now my knowledge of history may be a little rust but according to your own ideas your mighty British empire would never exist, you'd still be under Roman rule as would most of Europe .

Now the wand has been around like the others said for thousands of years, Ollivander's shop has been around since 382 BC and my guess is that they didn't invent the wand. Even if they did I doubt the family opened the shop the day the first wand was complete. That is also probably not the location of the original wand shop the original may not even be in Europe, I'm willing to bet that there was one in Alexandria(founded some 50 years after Ollivander's and the center of knowledge in the ancient world) at one point.

So with that I'm thinking the wand isn't Europe's secret weapon against the world.

OK that's not exactly all I have to say but it's 4:40 am and I'm tired as hell I'll come back tomorrow and finish (if I remember what I was thinking).

 

Don't really agree with you about that the Wizarding world has turned a blind side to the muggles. If they had there wouldn't be things like the Knight Bus and wizarding wireless. Anyway, who is to say that those things came from the muggle world in the first place. It can also be that those things originated in the wizarding world and then customized to the muggle world.

Not only that, the wizarding world don't need allot of the things the muggles have. Why do they need a telephone when they can floo call or use a mirror to talk to eachother?

Who is to say that the wizarding world need something like a TV. If they want they can probably charm something to be like a TV. But wizards might not like that sort of entertainment.

Allot of people say simply because of the fact that the wizarding world don't have electricity they are backwards. So far I have yet to see a point for them to have it. Light can be created with charms, alarms for the house = wards and wizarding wireless don't seem to need it.

Anyway, I just don't see the wizarding world as being way behind the muggle world.

 

And yet, they have no need for such technologies. They have this wonderful thing called magic. Furthermore, we know that Wizards MUST have come to Britain along with the Romans (hence the Latin-based magical practises and social systems). So it would'nt be that much of an incongruity for Wizards to accompany Muggles to the New World.

Like I've said before, Money. The New World was full of incredible new plants and animals that Europeans had never before encountered. Vast mineral resources were to be found here as well, now why wouldn't an enterprising young Potion's Master NOT want to journey to the New World (yes, there IS a reason they called it that, other than the fact that they didn't know it was there) finding new reagents and potions to SELL back in Europe? There were and still are VAST gold deposits across South America, WHY wouldn't the Goblins want in on that? You think far too simply on this issue.

Guyana, South America gained Independance from Great Britain in 1966. The Former British Guiana was Britain's major holding in South America, a source rich in gold and bauxite, with climate perfectly suited to grow rice and sugarcane. And yes, I do think before typing, and no I will not go research before I post, I prefer to use the knowledge I have AT HAND, if you notice I said "I believe Madagascar is one?" please note that it was firstly in parenthesis, and secondly not STATED as fact.

I don't need your history lesson, I know quite enough about Colonialism as it is. They were economically viable and worked on the system that they produced Primary and Secondary Industry, which was then shipped to the European powers for sale. This is what the Sugar trade was, this is how much of 17th and 18th century fine furniture was made. The spice trade was and still is dependant upon this system. So no, they weren't TOTALLY abandoned - though they were left to govern themselves when they had no good idea how to, and many are still in great debt.

I am quite cabable of reading the prior posts, and just in case you hadn't noticed, am also skilled at creating intelligent and logical responses to said posts. I'll go back to my previous argument WHY would there be latin-based spellwork in Britain if the Magical world did not follow the Muggle? We should be seeing Harry performing old druidic and celtic rituals otherwise. We don't. WHY would Padma and Parvati Patil be at Hogwarts when they could be in India? Well, perhaps their family was one of the magical families to EMIGRATE to Britain after India gained INDEPENDANCE. So as we can see, it is viable to think that where Muggles go, Wizards follow (or vice-versa).

You, my friend, need to re-read Goblet of Fire.

That, was another stupid comment. I won't even bother giving it a proper response.

No, I did not contradict myself. Wizards do not NEED telephones, or television, or electric lamps, or computers, or the Internet. They are however, quite able to take a useful invention (like the bus) and alter it to suit their needs. Please pay attention to the LANGUAGE used, that's what we call reading.

And I also assume that Wizards would dot the country with cellular towers, so that they could create their phone networks? Muggle devices don't always work around magic. That is a fact. And I have not proven they're backwards, they have no need for a cellphone. Wizards have Floo-calls, and I would assume some sort of spell for the same purpose. Owls are incredibly fast as we've seen when the Ministry sends an Improper Use of Magic letter. Apparition also solves the distance problem, why waste Floo Powder when you could just apparate to Grandma's house?

Yes they had emigration from their home countries to control profit, but I don't think you would find any British men working in a Sugar Cane field, or picking cotton. No, that's what they had SLAVES for. And after Slavery was abolished, they brought in what were called "Indentured Labourers" who worked for a time, and were set free once their contracts were up - many of these labourers did not return to their home countries and represent much of the population of the Commonwealth. Again, your fixation on the Industrial Revolution is unfounded. There were no incredible machines or factories across the landscape of Africa or Asia. Although perhaps there is a point in your argument (although you would never have noticed it), that after the Industrial Revolution a great need for raw products was needed, to fuel these Industrial factories.

They were not established BECAUSE of Military Superiority, that merely facilitated HOLDING the colonies.

I won't argue with you on the origins or sociology of racism, that could turn into quite a heated debate - one which I have NO desire to be part of. Although I will state this, Racism, as you've said comes from a feeling of superiority. This is evident in the Blood Purity aspect of Harry Potter, Purebloods are "superior" to Muggleborns, due to their lineage - NOT due to their ability to wield magic. An African wizard is just as able to use magic as an Irish Wizard - there is no argument in superiority here (ignoring the blood issue), and therefore (according to your arguments) no basis for racism in the Magical world.

Did Draco and Blaise not share a compartment on the Hogwarts Express in HBP? I assumed that they were friends at least. And all my arguments are derived from canon. The opinion of Patil may be from Harry's perspective - but as we see it, all of this world is. And as for Diggory/Chang.. no, it cannot be a Romeo & Juliet type of romance, her relationship with Harry after Cedric's death denies that. Juliet killed herself so she could be with Romeo.

Again, my arguments for Racism in the Magical World have already been stated, using your arguments as proof. Racism in the Magical world cannot exist because there is no superiority issue. That does not mean however, that there aren't Wizarding colonies; the social structure of Wizarding society allows for them - with the RICH (Malfoys, Fudges, etc..) being the "overseers" and the poor as labourers. This of course, cannot be on such a grand scale as the Muggle colonies - Wizards aren't that numerous.

 

Apparently not... Seems like people just want to bitch about non-existant racism and the history of a made up world before suspending their disbelief and reading a story.

Oh well, their loss. If anyone does take this challenge up i'll read it. It may sate my lust for a world-wide British Empire once again . Preferably ruled by me...

Just a small point in case for the idea, would Voldemort automatically gain the colonies if he conquered magical Britain? Or would he have to start another uprising there? I imagine it would be automatic, since the purebloods would be the ones in charge and the labourers would be the poorer echelons of society.

Just a random thought - imagine Ron working a field of sugar cane, perfectly happy because he doesn't have to use a single brain cell in his head . I don't like Ron .

Aekiel

 

A little ironic considering you're also a member of this community/fandom

Could create and interesting idea, Voldemort taking over Britain, and Harry/OOTP flee to a safehouse in one of the colonies...rather than 12 Grimmauld... I've been thinking about using this idea for quite some time now, not really sure how I'd incorporate it into Soul's Struggle though.

And on the random thought... you need more than a few brain cells to work in a cane-field... Ron would easily cut off his own leg, or get a snake/small rodent bite.

 

I like the concept. However it is likely too big, it certainly could not be addressed in one story.

Perhaps glimpses of that world could be done through a series of vignettes. This would require developing some form of unified understanding of the magical world. I also suspect it would require extensive research into magic in other cultures.

 

Way to necro there little buddy. Please read the rules (they are right there beneath the "LO" in the banner at the top) and the stickies. Here's a hint, if the last post was more than three weeks ago it's considered thread necromancy. However, unlike what our name may suggest, we do not encourage practicing Black Magic on dead discussions.

 

I say we all blame JKR for not providing us enough information on the rest of the wizarding world that inevitably led to the argument in this thread.