Also later on in that same post he gives reasons for liking sloth
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If you were scum with sloth you just said you could be scum with sloth.

also later when discussing it with Tom you said by that point you’d interacted with him in a way that is not partnery.
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Can I answer this when I’m not on my phone?

 

Yeah, after thinking about it and then voting on sloth. I wasn't really sure if it was not partnery at the time tbh.

Also I may or may not have been aggressively trying to clear myself to tom, might have overstated a few things while egotripping about myself heh.
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What I mean is that that kind of statement isn't really cheeky for me, I could make that as any kind of alignment at that gamestate. More just trying to objectively look at things.

But it's more semantics than anything.

 

No I demand immediate answers.

translated from tired terraine douchery that is "Yes of course"

 

I got through page 12 and then I started skimming, which is the exact opposite of what I want to do since it's coming up on the end of day one. It's late, I'm tired, I'll pick back up on my reread tomorrow.

The quick answer of the shrug lynch comment is that it feels like this is where we've been going all day without any other thoughts, and if I vote Vaimes it will definitely be a shrug for me because I'm leaning town there but I don't feel confident enough or strong enough to be able to pull the lynch off of him or that I have a better lynchee instead. That to me feels like a shrug lynch even though it's obvious that enough people think he's scum. I hope that my kinda lean is wrong since that's where we're headed. I don't know if I explained it very well. I'll try better tomorrow if it's unclear.
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Spoiler

SHHHHHHH - I still suspect Keldeo

 

The Jari/Empoof thing was part of a chain starting at #24, and it felt like Empoof was doing it to feel Jari out. Vaimes did a similar thing to me shortly after he entered. There's a townish motivation (well, a scum-huntish motivation) challenging someone else to be scum, and seeing how they'll react, if it makes them uncomfortable or anything. But a scum claim that stands alone tests how everyone else reacts to you looking scummy, and that has a mostly scummish motivation to me, and while it's called a joke-claim, it's not actually funny (to me, anyway).

Now we get to the part where single-level quoting really, really sucks (and it'll bite Tammy later when she tries to work on the quotes she has collected).

You said you saw more activity, more attempts to get reads, and I thought about why, and had the insight that the scum hunting that scum have to do changes the overall activity level as opposed to a regular game, where they'd be working to impede that. I didn't credit you with having that insight as a whole, but your observation got me halfway there. So my answer was, "You made a good point, because it led me to this insight". It really was a helpful and useful answer to me. (I feel like I've explained this before.)

This was at the point where I had commented on Tammy's use of color in her vote, and felt she had ignored that comment. We straightened that out later, but at the time I was suspicious of her for it, and was taking note of your suspicion, which aligned with mine.

Jari had misread me. I think it's obvious by now that I'm sensitive to that? And the "talking about me, but not to me" didn't help.

Right. Not meeting my challenge, but side-stepping it. The thing I describe later as "not-look-me-in-the-eye-ish", Jarizok had been challenged and done a low-confidence back-down, just like he had backed away from/ignored the votes on himself. It created a pattern.

Ok, that comment feels biased. Jarizok had 3 votes on him at this time, with no reasoning behind them, and nobody was challenging that, not even himself. Now I wasn't sure if that was part of your site culture here, something that "people do", which is why I asked about it, but it sure looked like nobody would bat an eye on a Jarizok push, and that he wouldn't stand up to it much. And D2 events show that my impression was 100% correct. The "out" I am giving myself here is simply the consideration that in a normal mafia game, I would townclear the LHF if they're getting pushed, because why would mafia push one of their own in that situation? But in a multiball, the LHF can be not part of the group pushing them, but still be mafia. That's just correct mechanics. The jury is still out if that's what we saw on D2, but it sure looks like it.
This is also a point of bias: you criticise that I am "giving myself an out", but if I had not mentioned that Jari coukd be scum, you'd have said "mendel clears Jarizok without proper justification". When I'm scummy no matter what I do, it's a sign of bias.

Yes. You saw me exolain to Tammy today that I scumhunt by considering the shape of the discussion. And that shape was how other people were pushing Jarizok, and how acceptable it was, and that assigns a role to Jarizok which he seemed to habitually accept, like the kind of player who is used to getting lynched early.
I'm not sure what was "lukewarm" about the reactions, I felt there was NO reaction to the votes on Jari at all. "Lukewarm" implies there was one, did I overlook that?

I disagree. People will usually not answer "no" to a question put generally like this, if you want an answer, address people directly. Jari asking me this directly would ensure an answer from me, and then if I failed to remember, a correction would be forthcoming because of the "someone is wrong on the internet" factor (there's an xkcd comic that goes with that). Just having that conversation ensures that others can get involved, but directing the question at no-one will more likely avoid it, and in this case where nobody knows me, would be almost certain.

On what? This is early D1, I have nothing to press, he'd likely just avoid again, and it'd just be awkward. My aim is to get a feel for the players, at this point I had kinda sorted Jarizok and moved on. This isn't the first LHF I've encountered, you need to let them find their feet and see how they develop themselves as they get familiar with the game, and being antagonistic impedes this process instead of helping it along.
Also, bias again: you criticized me earlier for being "much more chalkenging" to Jarizok than to others, and here you scumread me for being not challenging enough. It's another lose/lose for me.

Me picking a quote and showing I am thinking about it is more transparent that me not doing that. You're picking a single item here to support your point, instead of considering the whole body of evidence: how transparent is my play as a whole? How invested am I in showing and exokaining my reads and thought processes? Compare that to what Sloth was doing, if you want to be fair.

It's not about holding the SHOT, it's about doing a KILL. You cut the context from your quote, because the line before that is important. "The thing is this: because of the BPVs, each scum team can kill exactly one of two players on day 1. If those players are widely scumread, the town watcher is likely to look there. So if mafia want to use their kill, ..." So, yes, obviously mafia can hit a BPV at random, but if they want to KILL, they have exactly two choices, so they have to a) find a scum, b) shoot it, and c) not get watched doing it, because that would be bad. Which means if they want to KILL, aka hit a scum, instead of just SHOOT anywhere and likely hit a town, they must keep their scum read townread, and that means the true scum hunting process must be kept secret, and the outward scum hunting should be obscured or faked. That is the distinction I was making here.

I get why you don't think it matters, we have already discussed thus, and town-hunting or establishing a town core versus a POE are not part of your approach to playing mafia, but that's how I play. I expect players with MU experience can back me up here?

It matters to Jari beccause common wisdom has it that scum are concerned with how they look, and town, being honest and open, are not, because they can just be themselves. (It's a misconception,. For another example, some town players have a strong motivation not to get nightkilled as Power Roles, and thus want to appear to be potential mislynches while not actually getting lynched, which involves carefully managing how scumread they are.)

I don't understand what you're saying by "suddenly neither thing it matters and don't discuss it", could you explain?

This was on Friday, I spent my time and energy pushing Sloth in that phase, I believe? My next line that you cut from the quote is literally "If you had given me a post to look at, I would have, but I'm on the tablet and pressed for time.", and there you have your explanation. I don't have the time or the motivation to focus on Jarizok at that point, he's still not really involved himself much, I could be "pressing" fluffi, Cerber, Cobalt, or Asta, but why when I have a strong scum read I want to get lynched? Why didn't anybody else press Jarizok, why is it only scummy if I don't do it? Yes, bias again.

First, a LHF designation is not a town read. For a LHF to get cleared, they have to have material, and it has to be looked at, and hold up to scrutiny. In the paragraph that you cut the quote from, I am doing exactly that, and in fact in that complete post, I am looking at ALL of my LHF group.

For the first half of D2, Vaimes wasn't even here. Remember how we decided to hunt for Sloth's partner? And then look at my #449 and #475. I think the vote on you was incidental to a convincing case made on you by someone else? and followed by an unvote because you don't have Sloth partner equity? The real push on Jarizok happened while I was not in the thread for RL reasons (choir rehearsal -- the concert went very well). And I do remember "nudging" Jarizok on him changing his read on me, but I don't think he ever replied to that, and it got lost.

I already clarified that that's not the idea I actually laid out. And at this point, I don't know what actually happened, and I'm pretty sure that that was my answer when you asked me about it. How do you know, except by bias?

 

It ended, so I’m dumping more meta.

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums...n-mafia-game-over-europe-will-crumble?page=38

Fresh off the boat town game. 2/3 of the scumteam pushed me. We lost after we couldn’t find the last scum because lolgambits.

 

I had a dream that Vaimes flipped 3rd party. It was inside a sea of feverish dreams like playing Teamfight Tactics with living animals that could somehow fuse. The pigeon plus wiener dog combo shook me awake.

If you guys are wondering how I'm doing, great thanks.
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Tammy if you think Vaimes is just town walk me through who you think it is. Maybe you know his meta better than me.

Keldeo being gone makes Empoof an unhappy penguin.

The main issue for me is that if we did decide to not lynch Vaimes today I want to be incredibly sure about it. If we miss on not Vaimes and Vaimes is actually town our loss chances are extremely high.
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Sorry, I should rephrase. I know you're not sure on a lynchee person that's not Vaimes, who are the people that you're looking at when it comes to Sloth's partner and who have you ruled out?

 

I expect that Sloth would have stadhed his buddy in the biggest group on his reads list.

I'm staring at this in wonder. Every read has a different kind of approach.

Fluffi is special as Sloth adresses him, and I recall that he later asked Terraine about her case on fluff, and hesitated to vote fluff at EoD for self-preservation. Since Cobalt's only second-half-of-the-week post also asked about a fluffi case, this felt like he was setting up fluffi-Terraine wagons for the day's lynch. That would clear both of them.

The Keldeo read is notable because one of the longest and thoughtfullest posts of the game is dismissed as having "no substance", and because he is sheeping Terraine on him despite scumreading her. Overall, I feel that this is too sloppily crafted to be the partner read.

The Cobalt read is four times as long as it needs to be, "Cobalt is lurking, and #157 proves he knows it" would suffice. Sloth rates this as scummy, yet sees Cobalt as more towny than Tammy, for whom he has no negative comments at all, despite her many posts. Cobalt should not be placed between Keldeo and Tammy!

Tammy is being pegged as not scum with fluff or terraine, the two players I think he sets up for thunderdoming. If one of these flips scum, he wants Tammy out if the line of fire. If I didn't know Tammy, I'd find this suspicious; as it is, I wonder why Sloth rated her zero, below Cerber, Tom, and me. Sometimes mafia will agonize over small scumslippy details that nobody else sees, and that can make a scum appear worse to their partner than they actually appear to the thread, and if Tammy is Sloth's partner, he might have thought this was a good place for her. A simpler explanation is that Sloth planned to damage Tammy's town core pisition in order to take an un-watched shot at her later.

The Empoof read is the longest, it has two references, and much hedginess: the "alarm bells" are offset by "observational bias", which remains unexamined. Notably, Empoof votes Keldeo in #165 and not fluff. Also, #100 isn't actually alarming if you dont take it out of context.

My gut feeling is that it's always Cobalt here; possibly Tammy if we can't find Sloth's partner anyway, but I'd turn to CerberAsta tunnelvision(tm) again first.

Posts mentioned by Sloth

Spoiler: Keldep #176

 

I'm gonna kill my other half if he doesn't stop unplugging my computer :/
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Friendly PSA people - We're not just in yesterday land. You can also hunt for Jarizok's partner. (I know some of you have, but come on.)
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Empoof - Not quoting to reply cuz I have a bunch of quotes saved up to look at/comment on and I need to let my computer charge up.

Anyway can we talk about why you think Keldeo is clear of being team Sloth because he's my biggest suspect right now I think. A good chunk of this will be explained later when I can sit down with my computer in a comfortable place, but this is where I'm at. I think the things that Tom pointed out with you are equally if not more suspicious in the Keldeo region.

I've taken careful consideration of Tom's thoughts on your end of the Sloth partnership possibility, especially in light of him dying apparently to both scum teams, and like I *see* what he's saying with a couple things, but there are those little things you said about Sloth, but like I feel like in your posts you're expressing the same tides of uncertainty that I was. It didn't feel put upon. I think the only time your tone with Sloth felt put upon was when you responded to him with "you scum bro." I thought that could be an annoyed response to a partner that was distancing really really badly. I realize your scum range is large and maybe you can fake that type of uncertainty, but it doesn't feel that way so hats off if it was.

I've also taken into consideration fluffy, and eh possible yeah, but I'm not sure it actually feels right. I think Vames made a case. I'll have to look at it. I'm kind of at would Fluffy really kill Tom last night?

I do think Vaimes is gonna flip town, but I'm not confident enough in my Keldeo scum read to light the pitch forks. And just if I'm wrong about Vaimes and I'm wrong about Keldeo I've completely fucked us over. But I would like to talk about Keldeo.

As for Jarizok's partner, man unless Jarizok's partner was willing to do a little bussing day one and two, which I guess he could have advised his partner to do since he gets lynched so often, but I'm lost on anyone but Mendel. It lines up soooo perfectly, but man how many times do things line up so perfectly and turn out wrong. Plus I feel bad suspecting him.
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dammit
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all my saved quotes are gone
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I just spent like two hours reading up to page 21 happily collecting quotes to talk about...and they're gone.

Please hold while I shoot myself and read again

 

<3

 

My cat Waffles. A player at another site named him for me after my play style, and personality. :/

But isn't he cute!

(I'm late to the pet posting party)

 

Vaimes likes the post with a whole entire cat.

 

Oh also, so I've literally had like 2-3 hours of sleep all week, so I'm stupid tired and decided since today is my Friday and this was a hell week I deserve vodka. So my brain is functioning on like three brain cells. If I make no sense, sorry just tell me it makes no sense and I will do better.

Right now, I'm just going to go through my keldeo concerns instead of all the things I had collected so that I can make a contained post and then I'll go back and try to pull up my other thoughts. And I literally, like literally right before I realized all my quotes were gone, was just telling nacho how very much I liked that this site stored all your multi-quotes and your posts as you were writing so you didn't lose anything if you went to another page. I'll stop whining.

 

Moderator Note:

Day ends in like, 24 hours or something. Timer at SoD post. Official vote count will pop up in a few hours when at computer again properly.

 

This is the vote count just before the next Keldeo post for reference. He's right now voting Tom but doesn't quite think he's mafia. In his previous post, which i think I quoted last night and need to go back to, he did spend some times discussing and going back and forth on Sloth. But when he voted Tom, he said he didn't see what Tom saw about Sloth's read on Empoof being nou, which I think is kinda weird because Sloth was deflecting and that was textbook deflection, so it read weird.

In the last post I just mentioned, he does come down on relatively negative feels about Sloth and has him as ehh? Anyway this vote is important because...

Like ten minutes later - okay no time stamps so I don't know the time - but really right after he starts investigating Cerber and moves his vote from Sloth to cerber, which feels problematic to me for a couple reasons. He makes this case, then says he doesn't want to lynch someone on their first day, and doesn't like his wagon partner. So why even bother casing and voting him in the first place if you don't like lynching someone day one in their first game. And then why even bother with the wagon partner thing? If he had a problem with the wagon partner, fluffy who was one of the top wagons he had to choose from above, why wasn't that a consideration for a vote?

This unvote comes after I say I don't want to lynch someone on their first day of their first game. So, why not go back to Sloth? If he liked him the best of the top wagons? There's nothing in that previous post where he talked about Cerber and made the case on him. He didn't make positive views about Sloth there, so why not go back to Sloth?

Now far be it from me to get on someone for their voting practices; I'm definitely not saying that you have to vote someone when you've unvoted or you have to have a vote in play at all times, but I don't get any indication that in the intermediary time between voting Tom and voting Sloth that his suspicions on tom had changed. He specifically came in and voted Sloth because it was the preferred of the top wagons at the time. So then why, after making the case on cerber and getting flack for it, move back onto Sloth because it was the favorite of the top wagons?

This whole thing right here feels to me like distancing. Hearing out people's concerns on your partner, voting, immediately switching. And I find this suspicious.

What I've cut off here, for space, is Keldeo asking Sloth general reads requests and etc. But here is where he starts to put out townie feels for Sloth (and to be fair I did this too and so did empoof and tom, so I'm not saying the going back and forth is scummy, it's that the feel of it feels different.)

We start to see some more defense of Sloth and then he's maybe town.

Then he puts the hammer on Sloth. Sloth had come in and voted fluffy, which put the wagons at 5-4 and Keldeo hammered Sloth but what other choice did he have?

Maybe I'm confirmation biasing because I'd had suspicions on Keldeo early, and I kinda feel like I shouldn't have suspicions on him because he feels relatively townie in the way he presents his thoughts and his tone. And if it'd just been some wavering I'd probably not think much about it because hey hi was right there too, but the pop in with the vote and then immediately moving it to moving towards thinking Sloth was town and kinda defending him in areas just feels like how people feel they need to distance. And he really didn't have a choice during the hammer ceremony, so I'm just like eh why are people clearing him?

And maybe I am a fool and it is Vaimes, but like I think that Vaimes is a lot like me when caught in a corner as scum and would figure eh why waste my time fighting an inevitability when I could sleep whereas I think as town he'd fight. And this doesn't mean you can't muster the will to fight, I once got guilted as a serial killer and fought for 50 pages before they lycnhed me, so every now and then I know you can get a spurt of will to rise to the challenge so really well-played if this is one of those moments.
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So I came into today still thinking that Terraine could possibly be Sloth's partner, but I've cooled on that. And I don't think the fact that he vote parked her all day really means anything like in a vacuum, especially when he didn't actually try to get her lynched. I get the argument against it I really do, but like I've played a lot of multiball and seen scum do weird af things, like bus your only partner day one and get cross killed that night giving you instaloss? Yep, seen it. So how I would treat a partner and how other people would isn't necessarily the same thing. BUT I did like the bait post, I missed that before. There's just a bunch of little things that feel less likely for them to be paired,

though Terraine, if you thought he was baiting you why did you have him in your town reads?

Mendel did't feel like a bus. Mostly with the conciliatory way that Sloth interacts with him in return.

Cerber - Eh he just feels new. I do think that day two he felt a little more sure and that's tough to do when losing your partner. I might be projecting, my first game ever was scum in multiball. My partner lynched scum on the other team and got night killed, and I felt so lost the next day. He didn't feel that way. And yeah, I agree with Tom I think that the cerber read felt a bit pockety. (Would be funny if Terraine and Sloth were partnered and they went good cop bad cop on their friend though. Oh wait maybe if Terraine was scum she'd be a bit more lenient to new!cerber early on?)

Vaimes - There's literally nothing between cobalt/sloth. I thought sloth had cobalt too high in his nulls for what he'd put out when one of the few things he said about cobalt looked like a legit lurker scum read.

need to look back at fluffy and Vaime's case.

 

Wouldn’t it figure if Sloth’s partner turned out to be one of the two people I decided were towny enough not to warrant suspicion. :v

 

And for Jarizok:

Cerber - Scum read Jarizok on day one and voted him. Ended day one with his vote there.

Cobalt/Vaimes - Sat on Jarizok literally all day. One of the few pop in reads he had was making his Jarizok vote a semi-real vote but not sure.

Empoof - Suspected Jarizok early day one and wanted to lynch him at the end of day one. This is what prompted Tom's suspicion of empoof/Sloth team. Would be a sick early gonna bus not really to look like not partnered though feels unlikely based on their interactions.

fluff - suspected jarizok early day one especially when I started talking to him about Jarizok and his lack of posts/thoughts. He had his vote their and was willing to lynch him day one.

Keldeo - Pushed the fuck out of Jarizok day two. Sure bussing possible but it didn't feel? like a bus

Terraine - Jarizok claimed she was Sloth's partner and sat on her all day. Much like Sloth day one he didn't really do much to try to get her lynched. Not impossible to be partnered, but eh.

Mendel - Defended Jarizok as LHF along with other lurkers, but still this is a really favorite way to push away suspicion on your partner. Both days when Jarizok was a potential lynch, he pushed in the opposite direction. There are so many little ways he looks like Jarizok's partner but I'm worried it lines up too perfectly. Mendel's behavior overall doesn't quite fit the scum profile in multiball, but not everyone does. I'm just sitting here like gods he looks so perfectly like his partner, but does it fall in our lap this easily? IDK
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I'm probably wrong on everything really.

 

Thanks Tammy, I'll read over this a little later tonight.

On skim just noting that Keldeo was also pushing on Jarizok day 1 from what I remember. I had basically ruled Keldeo out from Sloth's partner by reading his posts. iirc there was some early "hmming" that didn't feel partnery. I mostly just believe his process, though maybe I should reread his Jarizok process to see if he really believed that he was Sloth's partner.

That and I have a handful of sick townie things that I think Keldeo has done like when he went meta investigating on Jarizok and then pushed back about it being a townie thing to do.
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@Vaimes why did you feel like you didn't have to answer any of the questions I gave you when you were trying to work with me?
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For reference.

 

Sorry, they sounded a tad rhetorical. Realistically, if I say “I think CA is town and fluff is scum, here’s why” and you respond with “are you sure?” then...I don’t really know what to do with that.

I do still believe that Sloth was whiteknighting CA, but I’m still going to read CA’s posts to be sure. If the mod confirmed there was one scum between then, I would lunch fluff any day of the week.

I do believe in my fluff case. Maybe it’s not fantastic, but I thought I made a good point, and I thought that fluff’s reaction to it was awful if he’s a villager. I personally didn’t care about his response much - I just did that to get him to take a more verbose stance on something. And I thought there should at least be some existing explanation for why he lunched Sloth, once I’m dead.
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I don’t have my computer tonight, so that’ll make it easier for me to sit back a bit.
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As for fluff voting Sloth over Jarizok, I don’t think it’s a strong reason. Cross-vote, hope one of you emerges cleared of being the other’s partner, profit. Seems like a viable strategy to me, and apparently scum bussing in a multi ball is somehow not uncommon.
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Well, I say “strategy” like it was planned. Probably just a sinking situation that they tried to capitalize on. Theories for days.
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I don’t really know how fluff feels about his ability to win endgames as scum. He tends to fly under the radar, and doesn’t get lunched on DLP as much as you’d expect. Feel like if he distanced from Sloth and managed to catch a different scum, he could basically cruise through the game because he never gets Nightkilled.

More theories.
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Dumbtell alert: I don’t know if Watchers have to watch and kill the same person, or if they can split their targets.

Hypothetically, it opens up a world where fluff watched someone get shot by Jarizok, but Jarizok didn’t see fluff because he watched elsewhere.

But the obvious hole in that theory is “why would the Watcher do both actions when there’s a Goon?” Eh.
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Adding one more thing to my fluff case: [redacted] actually, it’s a little too early to bring this up. I hope I remember this before deadline, or if someone cares enough to remind me later.

I’m doing a bad job of not posting, sorry.

 

I’m tired. I could force myself to read vaimes fluffy case, but like I’m tired. I have read some of fluffs response which was more passionate than what I thought fluff had in him. I think.

Empoof - yeah I saw keldeo go after jari day one, it’s the day two which is so memorable. So irs literally everyone in the game except terraine and Mendel who didn’t go after jari day one and two. So did someone bus or is it one of those two?

Respondto keldeo stuff lAter I’m literally in that place where I’ve got so little sleep that my head feels like it’s thrumping,
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I’m tired. I could force myself to read vaimes fluffy case, but like I’m tired. I have read some of fluffs response which was more passionate than what I thought fluff had in him. I think.

Empoof - yeah I saw keldeo go after jari day one, it’s the day two which is so memorable. So irs literally everyone in the game except terraine and Mendel who didn’t go after jari day one and two. So did someone bus or is it one of those two?

Respondto keldeo stuff lAter I’m literally in that place where I’ve got so little sleep that my head feels like it’s thrumping,
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I’m tired. I could force myself to read vaimes fluffy case, but like I’m tired. I have read some of fluffs response which was more passionate than what I thought fluff had in him. I think.

Empoof - yeah I saw keldeo go after jari day one, it’s the day two which is so memorable. So irs literally everyone in the game except terraine and Mendel who didn’t go after jari day one and two. So did someone bus or is it one of those two?

Respondto keldeo stuff lAter I’m literally in that place where I’ve got so little sleep that my head feels like it’s thrumping,
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Apparently I’m tired y’all!