Due to this video (and it's ridiculous assumptions):


I was wondering if you agree that the force is stronger than HP magic. If so, why. If not, why?

Now, we are not talking about if Voldemort is stronger than Vadar, or Harry and Luke, but magic vs the force as a whole.

Personally, I'd say magic is farrrr stronger but that's just me. I know @Paradise disagrees.

and now we wait for @Taure to grace us with his presence to show us exactly why magic is far stronger.

 

HP has a smaller scale but a more powerful mechanism of action.

The Force is a "natural" force of the universe; HP magic breaks the natural rules of the universe. There's not really any natural force I can see breaking through a competently cast Shield Charm unless it is itself magical in nature.

The biggest advantage Force users have is their precognitive abilities, but the way around those is using attacks which cannot be evaded.

 

Here is a a list of examples;

1. Luke Skywalker drags a star destroyer out of orbit, and smashes it into Jakku. A star destroyer for reference is 1,600 meters long,and is capable of going 975 km/hr.

2. The Detonation of the Cron Cluster. Around 3990 BBY Allema Keto causes 10 stars to supernova using the force. This strips Ossus of all life.

3. The Star Forge. Built by the Rakatan Infinite Empire in 30,000 BBY, the star forge was a giant automated factory designed to create the largest and most advanced army to inhabit the universe. It is powered by the force.

4. FTL; short answer basically all hyperspace drives tap into the force to go fast.

5. The World Between Worlds which allows for time travel that goes longer than two weeks.

6. Actual Gods the force users of mortis, or aka the Force Gods are basically immortal, can shapeshift, oh and could probably destroy the very fabric of the universe if they were so inclined.

7. True Resurrection; Darth Plagueis resurrects and kills one of his enemies over and over, because he hated him that much.

8. Sith Alchemy which lead to the creation of any numbers of monstrosities, like I dunno the, Leviathan.

9. Kyber Crystals, which were used primarly in lightsabers which were hot enough to cut durasteel, and just about anything in the universe with like two exceptions. Oh yeah and one giant kyber crystal was the heart of the Death Stars main battery. You know, the one they use to destroy fucking planets.

10. Here are a list of force powers that are fun,

Force Ghost: this is essential an afterlife, we see it a lot in the movies

Force Wormhole: pretty self explanatory but essential allows force users to create an actual wormhole.

Straight up Pyrokinesis

I could actual just go on and on, but there are literal pages of this shit. But suffice to say, the Force is stronger than magic.

 

Yeah, I don't see anyway, based on feats alone, that magic is stronger than the Force.

Battle matchups are a dumb way to measure the strength of a tool though imo. Too many variables.

It's like comparing Naruto to Dragon Ball Z. Naruto is a moon buster. Goku is a planetary/galaxy buster.

 

Is that ever canonically established? I mean, if that were the case, why would wizards ever use magic to throw inanimate objects at each other if the shield charm is unbeatable to anything but a magical attack? I'm pretty sure that avenue of attack is used a few times in the books, and a number of times in the movies, which would make no sense if the basic shield charm truly broke reality in that way.

Actually that was just the Rakatan Hyperdrive. After their Infinite Empire collapsed, former slave species - including humans and Duros - reverse engineered it and came up with technological workarounds for the Force-based components, since they were unable to replicate or control them properly.

Also, magic allows for teleportation. I'm not sure what the theoretical maximum range of apparation or portkeys would be, but quasi-instantaneous travel probably still beats absurdly fast FTL nine times out of ten (in a contest of pure relative speed).

In fairness, it's never established whether or not there are any actual gods in HP's world.

 

They'd still have to cast the spell in time to block the inanimate objects. And if they do, then you could throw a killing curse or something at them. After which, they'll have to block with something physical. Then you can use physical attacks, which they'll either block or not. Essentially, there are responses to every spell. You just have to find a spell that the enemy doesn't know the response to or catch them off guard with one they do know the response to.

 

Hyperdrive > Apparition

the hyperdrive allows trillions of beings to travel a galaxy in a matter of days at the most. A galaxy that spans 120,000 light years.

intercontinental apparitions usually result in spliniching. Sure its instant but still.

In HBP Voldemort has to fly from the Austrian Alps to Malfoy Manor in Wiltshire. A distance liberally measured at about 600 miles.

In fact 'he had to fly over a stormy sea' to get there, only one sea along the way, which would be the Channel. So lets assume he had to set down in Eastbourne, which would be the closest stop along the most direct route. Thats a distance of about 100 miles.

This is fairly conservative, seeing as how his range could actually be greater than that but he couldn't apparate the entire distance of the Channel. Mmkay so in that case the closest point to England from inside the channel is still about 100 miles but the furthest within in the Channel is about 160 miles.

So here we can assume that voldemorts range is anywhere from 100 miles to 160 miles. Lets take the middle and say his range is 130 miles.

Assuming it takes a wizard one second to apperate, and he doesn't need to rest, sleep or eat. That gives him a speed of about 600 miles an hour. It would take a wizard of Voldemorts caliber a million years to traverse a single light year. Teleporting 600 miles an hour, 24 hours a day.

Hyperdrive is far superior.

 

I personally wouldn’t attribute hyper speed travel to this discussion since hyperspeed is tech.

That said there are instances of force teleportation across the galaxy.

 

I'd back Dumbledore against Sidious, but I'd back an organisation of Force users against an organisation of magic users.

 

Sidious would destroy dumbledore.

As would any trained force user against 99% of wizards. The key issue is similar to the one opponents of the flash face.

Force speed is such that any one without enhanced speed/precog/senses is left in the dust. Sidious is notes to move so fast that he is a tiny blip on a security monitor.

Unless Dumbledore starts with spells to enhance his physical abilities he won’t even be able to get his spells off before sidious is force crush/life drain/force storm Dumbledore.

Only chance is if Dumbledore gets prep time, which makes this argument as dumb as Batman v Superman.

Force users are superhuman in a way wizards can’t hope to match. Your best hope is magical creatures.

 

See earlier statement where I said Hyperdrive is only attainable through the force

 

Might as well just frame the question by asking which creator was willing to go to greater lengths to make their world's gimmick be special

 

It's always interesting when a discussion prompts highly confident answers on each side of an argument.


I don't think the "Who would win/which is more powerful" discussion is very interesting, however. I think more interesting is which is more valuable, or which skill transforms the lives of those who have it more from others around them who are missing it.

This is interesting because both HP and Star Wars build off the idea that these 'powers' don't fundamentally change society, or the human condition. In Harry Potter, the press are annoying, politicians are windbags, and racism-equivalent is a huge force - these challenges are expressed differently, and it's all a lot more fun, but the setting doesn't remove the challenges humans face without magic. The same is true, perhaps even more blatantly, in Star Wars - you have planets instead of countries/cities, spaceships instead of cars, and The Clone Wars instead of Iraq.

So of these, which would you rather have? Which changes the lives of the individuals using it more - the Force, or magic?

Magic seems to win this one hands down (which is because its the basis of the setting, whereas the Force is only part of the setting). Magical users live in completely different environments from muggles. Their wands let them travel differently, work differently (transfiguring clothing, brewing potions, managing dragons, hunting curses etc.), and live differently (household charms) from those around them (muggles).

Whereas force-users lives are pretty dang similar to non-force users (unless you live in the Old Republic, in which case it's arguably still similar to the life of a special forces/diplomat). They live in the same apartments and settings (mostly), travel in the same vehicles and so on. The only real difference is in work - but that's both a small part of anyone's life, and also just very diplomacy/combat based - it doesn't lend itself to anything more creative (see wand-maker, spell-maker, and so on). As a force-sensitive, your life is pretty similar to the life of both a non-force-user in the Star Wars universe, and also to any of us today (you're just commuting by speeder instead of car).


So sure, maybe a Jedi would beat a wizard in combat. But that's because the Force was designed as a combat-magic, with the wisdom and insight retrofitted. Whilst magic in Harry Potter is about being magical - about the quirky feel of the world and the eternity of cool things you can do. The dueling element is partially retrofitted, its just not designed for that.

 

I would agree with this if any of that stuff would actually be canon all that stuff is written in Legends comics, books, games etc.

What we actually see in the movies is Obi- wan one of the most powerful Jedi fighting on equal footing with a regular ass human like Jango Fett we never saw his hyper speed or insane reaction time.

The same applies to almost all force users who regulary get defeated surrounded and killed by droids, clones etc. if the Jedi would have the insane feets or even super speed, reaction time like in Legends they never would face any kind of threat from non Force users and Order 66 would be absolutely ridiculous.

The movies show us how Luke one of the most powerful force users ever dies of force exhaustion just by projecting himself ,no Star destroyer force pulls, teleportation or any of that EU nonsense.

So my answer is magic at this point is more powerful than the force it has immortality, time travel, teleport, invisibility, city destroying spells etc.

This could change though if they introduce some of the insane powers of the Legends stuff in the movies.

This is not saying that the HP world is stronger, Star wars has planet destroying weapons but they are technology even if they use force objects as their source.

 

@kira and light Well this is another issue, determining what sources are eligible. I'll give you that based purely on the star wars movies HP Magic seems stronger, but Disney can go jump off a cliff. I'll always consider Legends the definitive star wars lore. It was written by people who loved star wars and approved by Lucas, there were specific people devoted to maintaining the consistency of the lore etc.
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@Quiddity I like your question and shift to which is more value. I complete agree that magic is much more versatile and offers better quality of life changes.

 

This is primarily due to the philosophy of the Jedi, which I imagine given what you are saying is the group you are attributing to.

Essentially, to them the Force is not a toy, even though the earliest acts of the Force that young force sensitives perform is pulling a toy to them using it, this is strongly discouraged by the Jedi.

They, in an effort to remain in touch with the common people they defend, refuse to use the Force for anything outside of meditation and combat, but still devote their lives to seeking a connection to it. Looking at the Jedi as a society of Force users is wrong, they are a group of Monks who use the Force, they may devout their lives to it but to them it is essential a weapon that should only be used in the most absolute of times.

Instead we should look at the Nightsisters of Dathomir as a society and culture of Force users. Their 'magic' is traditionally performed only by the females of Dathomir, and as such are a heavily matriarchal people. They were a tribal-like culture with clans being governed by a Clan Mother, and all females of the species use the magic to some extent, with very few exceptions. Their magic is geared towards commune with the dead and the use of illusions. Interestingly enough they actually had a magical weapon capable of destroying planets, known as the Infinite Gate.

Their entire culture and way of life is decided by the wars between the various clans which can be traced to their differences in philosophies. Some follow the earliest and most traditional teachings were written by an exiled Jedi, essential the Light Side Night Sisters. And then the others which follow the Book of Shadows, which was written by a corrupted Night Sister.

In essence, the Jedi are a society of Force users, but their society is not based on the Force, rather they are peacekeepers and mediators who use the Force as a weapon. The Night Sisters are a society of Force users, who are governed by the Force, they live and die in pursuit of unifying their world under one philosophy.
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Thats from one of the new books under disney here is a link. I wouldn't cite the new sequels, they are so fucking weird about force rules, just chalk that up to Luke suffering the same fate as his mother. He no longer had the will to live in such a shit movie.

 

Sorry to end the discussion and close the whole door on this escapade, but, you’re all thinking of this as force-user vs magic-user. Not force vs. magic. And without doing that it’s horribly complicated by feats and mediums rather than the underlying issue.

I think reducing it down to this leads to some very simple logical induction that Magic is the winner. To quote JK:

 

Not entirely, the philosophy of the Jedi is a result of the nature of the force itself, which depending on how its used, can strongly affect its users moral values and desires.

A wizard who uses magic for selfish reasons is nothing out of ordinary and can use it for selfless reasons whenever he wants, a force user using the force for selfish reasons has a realistic chance of falling to the dark side and it would be considered a miracle for them to return to being their former self.

 

I was referring more to utility. Magic has thousands of utility spells, teleportation, Accio, cleaning spells, transfiguration, and conjuration.

The Force could have similar properties, using it to help with mundane tasks, like watering plants, cleaning, grabbing something off a tall shelf, and all sorts of stuff. Its telekinesis.

And yet the Jedi don't do that. They only use it as a weapon of war.