Wow. Someone's a little grumpy. Need an after-school snack there kiddo?

1)Everyone knows it's fictional; thus why it's called "fan fiction".

2)I believe both myself and Inferno's reference to magical potatoes was more in jest and an attempt to play devil's advocate than anything. Take a breath chief.

3)This entire website is dedicated to fan fiction for the HP universe. We discuss completely inane things and aspects of the canon universe for enjoyment, and in the case of recreational authors, inspiration. If you didn't realize that then perhaps it is you that needs to back off a bit.

4)I'm fairly sure that neither side of this discussion ever once thought that in the long run the topic ever meant a damn thing other than something to discuss. Do you freak out on people that discuss movies and the aspects of those movies they do or don't agree with?

Edit: Yeah, no more double-posting from me. Sorry about that.

Edit2: Yeah, bucky you need to relax a bit. There is no "win" to be had, and no one in their right mind ever thought Rowling would read any of this. It was never the point. However, you're just a little too uptight to understand. Try taking a deep breath and maybe checking your blood surgar level.

 

I repeat:

You can't win; stop arguing.

If you were discussing a fanfic: I'd tell you to shut up.
If you were discussing the cannon: I'd tell you to shut up.

The only person who determines what is right or wrong it the author. You think Rowling's going to read this?

Fat chance, "kiddo".

EDIT: Fact is fact. Fiction is fiction. You can't compare the two. The moment you say: "If magic existed" you're screwed because logic ceases to be logic.

EDIT2: Can you not read the sig? If I wanted to be calm, I would be. I can be as uptight as I want, Thank-you-very-much.

 

Kender, since you are doing a remarkably good impression of a child, you aren't in any place to call others kids, or kiddo, which basically amounts flame baiting as its deliberately demeening and insulting.

I don't object to doing this debate, even though its been done about 5 times, not including this one, since I've been here at DLP. You could go through the old threads to find them rather than create a new one if you wished. Or if you really think you have something new to argue that could potentially change minds, go ahead and post it, just don't get upset when someone who has read all the stuff, or heard it discussed on IRC or whatever, tells you to STFU.

And, as an aside, how is magic, note the word magic just a different form of energy manipulation?

Mysterious or supernatural forces. Not enegry manipulation like happens in sci fi films. Ergo, magic is something totally different. My opinion, its the direct opposite of energy, whatever that may be. It cancels out electricity, therefore its the opposite. Acid neutralises alkali, magic neutralises energy.

 

While I quite agree with the "the only person who's right is JKR," you have to admit that the discussion is quite interesting, although that topic has been discussed way too many times for its own good. And the frequency of America suddenly sounding like a "magical paradise" in fanfiction is, IMO, enough of a reason for starting a discussion on a HP fanfiction forum.

But that's not what prompted me to post. Rowling is a crap writer? So following your own logic, you spend a good amount of your time online, discussing about a world created by a crap author, writing/reading fictions based on books written by a crap author, and generally just wasting time on series you find crappy, since they've been written by a crap author.

My God, you fail so badly that I'm actually amazed.

Now I can already hear the answers -- I didn't say the books were crap! She can't write, but her world is an interesting one! Her characters are good but she went totally wrong with them! Etc. etc.

Do you really believe that? Do you really think that she created this world and those characters we're all happily wasting time on, in a fit of goddamn sleepwalking? Do you really believe that a crappy author would have been able to invent a parallel world, close enough to the real one so that we can relate, but different enough so that she can give in to her imagination -- and anyone who claims she has no imagination is either incredibly arrogant, or completely cretinous -- and characters so captivating that thousands of people want to write fiction about them?

The fact that she can't write romance; or that she created one lousy character, or that she wrote one book that you felt wasn't quite up to her usual standard, doesn't mean she's a crap author. She was the one to come up with the HP world and its characters, for God's sake! This website wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for her. So yeah, you can say you were disappointed when reading HBP. But do have the decency to show the woman a little respect, without her there would be no Harry fucking Potter to begin with.

 

Not that I disagree with you, Mordecai, but I'm a fan of Arthur C. Clark's phrase: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

That being said, the reverse can be applied: Magic *may* just be advanced technology that no-one has figured out yet.
Oh, in this case I highly doubt that to be true, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of magic being a form of energy.
Yes, magic overrides electricity, but so does electromagnetics.
Now I think of it, my favourite usage of 'technology as magic', would be 'The Day After Tomorrow' by Robert Heinlein. The main characters appear to be magic users, but are merely using spectra of energy not previously discovered (Electrogravetic, gravetomagnetic/magnetogravetic and one involving all three spectra)
Couldn't that be the case here? I don't think it is, personally, I'd be much happier just assuming that it is *magic*, but I'm not discounting alternatives.

 

For starters, I am going to say Dango, back the fuck off, seeing the words magical potatoes and having a hissy fit over it, and then having the gall to post a picture of a baby crying, which has been recycled thoroughly on this forum, pictures are good for laughs once, get a new one.

As to the opening post, I have to disagree with you, While Americans may be "innovative" how much is there to innovate with magic? Better wands? Please this is done in fanfic ad nausea, Britain may be stuck in there roots, but they are also steeped in magical tradition, and have had innovators like Dumbledore and Flamel, there are thousands of magical textbooks.

EDIT: Tinn beat me to it, and when Tinn and I agree on something, and it's that you're a douchebag, you need to stop posting.

 

I'm here for fanfiction -- Not the works of J.K.Rowling.

Did I mention how much respect I have for JK? I did not.

Lastly, you might be want to see just how few of these pointless arguments I have taken part in before suggesting that I do so often.

Edit: Yeh, that pic was pretty lame; my bad.

Edit: Darius: okay, re-worded since you obviously misinterpreted that.

 

It's your choice to take part in them, no one forces you to post anywhere.

 

In my beautiful country, we call that "assraping flies". You're here for fanfiction based on the works of JKR, and that's all I was saying. Try again.

Yeah, because calling her a crap author is so respectful. It's not insulting at all, either.

I suggested that you spent time on a Harry Potter forum, so potentially took part in discussions about the HP world -- since it's what HP forums are about. I saw quite a few of your posts, which means that you post often enough; and this board is still, last time I checked, a Harry Potter forum. Point proven.

 

You're saying fanfiction is written by JK?
Your fanfiction is written by YOU.

I'm going to ignore the sarcasm there and say: "Yes, I entirely agree with you".

The header of this site says: "There is only fanfiction and those too weak to read it". And whatever Raven's intention for making this site was, that does not affect my reasons for joining, which was for fanfiction.

 

What the...

Either you're completely retarded or you're pretending to be. I'm saying fanfiction based on JKR's works! Based as in, inspired from! When the fuck did I say JKR was writing fanfiction?!

And I'm going to shake my head at you and redefine "insult" for your benefit. When you tell someone they are not doing their job right, it can be seen as constructive criticism. As soon as you include some word evoking excrement in various versions of increasing vulgarity, that's an insult.

So basically, you're bitching because I said "Harry Potter forum" instead of "Harry Potter fanfiction forum"? After I've mentioned half a dozen times the writing/reading of fanfiction based on JKR's books?

Loser.

And yes, in case you're wondering, that, for example, was an insult.

 

Right, I have severe issues with the concept that magical America is some sort of Eden and that magical Britain is some sort of stagnant and useless place. Granted some of it is simply pride for my country but there are some points I am going to attempt to stick up.

First of all, people seem to be claiming that muggle problems such as war and other such events will influence the magical world. There is pretty much no evidence for this at all, if the magical worlds are so insular (which they obviously are otherwise the muggles would find out about them) why would what happens in the muggle world affect anyone apart from the muggleborns or halfbloods to some degree? The chances of it affecting the magical governments are reasonably small based off of what we have seen of how self contained each world is.

That said, if it did affect the magical world those countries involved would have most likely actually improved their magical skills and technology. After all, some of the greatest improvements to technology has been from wars where an arms race between the two opposing groups has inspired newer and better things. What is to say the same thing hasn't happened in the magical world in response?

Finally can I point out to those that seem to claim that America (magical and muggle) is some sort of mystical land of freedom - it's really not, places like the bible belt and various other conflicting groups would likely have caused the magical world in America to have become just as remote and paranoid as the British one.

I suppose the biggest issue I have with the concept is that it's become cliché. Most of the stories that have Harry running away from the evil repressive Britain have him finding some sort of paradise in America and it's pissed me off so much I just have trouble stomaching the idea now.

Apologies if the post is rambling and convoluted, it's been a long night.

 

Rain, midear, nothing wrong with having pride in your country. What is it that you think makes American's portray America as Eden, as you so cleverly put it? Pride is what. They want to portray their country as better than any other, possibly in an attempt to make for short falls IRL, or for other reasons. I don't know. But it all stems from pride.

 

Mordecai it is time for you to get acquainted with a few facts of life:

1) America owns you. Don't believe me? 22-25% of the worlds wealth is located right here.

2) America owns your energy. Don't believe me? We use 1/4 of the worlds energy and we don't even have an aggressive energy policy, we buy oil at prices the EU couldn't even fathom buying it at -- that's why our gas still costs less then Europes did 15 years ago (and that's with taxes added in on the American cost).

3) America IS better then you. The average Environmental footprint in the world? Slightly less then 4.5 acres. The average Environmental footprint in America? 12.5 acres.

4) America doesn't need to give a fuck about the International community. If any other country pulled 1/100th of the shit we've pulled they'd be invaded faster then the pussy of that girl Kobe raped. They'd be owned harder then Ron and Nicole were by OJ. Well, you get the point.

5) Despite all of the shit we have going on in our country we still have a better (as in more equitable) court system then any other country in the world. Read through the 194 constitutions in the world and see our influence. We were talking about freedom of speech while you all were suppressing Queen Mab and [/i]The Mask of Anarchy[/i].

And it's number 5 that's the most important, because Magical Britain is stuck nearly 200 years in the past, it follows that if America is also stuck at a similar interval in the past, our rights would be better then yours (provided you're not a Native American on the muggle end of things, then you're pretty fucked, depending on tribal affiliation).

As for Pride. Mordecai, you're my boy and everything, but your post is a classic case of the pot (that would be you) calling the kettle (that would be American authors) black. We've got a lot to be proud of and minus the retarded leader (who, by the way, still hasn't managed to top Hugo Chavez or Ahmadinejad in the race for "dumbest motherfucker holding executive office in a country).

 

I edited my previous post, as I feel my response to Gio's is more important.

You do realize the things you're bragging about, are mostly bad things, that don't reflect well on your country, and to an observer (such as myself) that really owns fuels someone such as Mordecai's argument.

 

Darius: Indeed I do, however these (what observers would call excesses) are what makes our country paradise compared to the rest of this shit-hole called Earth. You are aware of the brain drain phenomena, correct? Intelligent foreigners come to the US at a rate greater then anywhere else in the world and have for most of the past century. This is merely the magical application of that theory of mass movement.

As for the things I mentioned: yes, they suck for the rest of the world, but America is not the rest of the world. We are merely discussing standards of living in America compared to other countries

Therefore your complaint is irrelevent.

Also I noticed you avoided the last (and as I said) most important bullet point.

And one last thing.

America has the highest GDP in the world. If the state of California was considered a country it would have the 6th highest GDP in the world (and the US minus that would still remain on top. So if you want to look at things that way, our economy is big enough to control 2 seats on the G8.

 

I'm sure I'm going to (once again) post this waaaay behind, because this is such an interesting topic and I'm sure several of my fellow members have beaten me to the chase.

I strongly agree with Kender on everything he's said, and some of what Mord and to a lesser extent inferno have countered with.

But I'm here to address one issue for Mordecai's' arguments that I disagree with.

I can accept that Britain holds heritage in high esteem, but I'd like to remind you that its not the only culture to do so.

 

Umm Syao: I see it as a standard of living/brain drain debate.

 

This is one thing that I hate Bush for. He's fucking reduced visa applications and made it 10 times harder to immigrate into America, at a time when the world is far more competitive than ever. Nowadays, the one advantage the U.S. has over the rest of the world is steadily being eroded, while Bush turns a blind eye and the Republicans complain about illegal immigration. Illegal immigration isn't the problem. The growing number of smart foreigners who decide not to go to the U.S. is.

The Republicans are right. Immigration needs to be reformed. It needs to be made easier to go into the U.S. if you're smart. Add a 0 to the number of H-1B visas (those for people with education above a Bachelor's degree) that the U.S. sends (right now it sends 65,000 Bachelor's Degree ones and 20,000 for people with an education above that per year.) And stop reuniting families. Instead, focus on getting smart people into the U.S. In 2006, 803,335 immigrants came from reunited families while only 159,081 came from employment-based preferences. (source: http://www.dhs.gov/ximgtn/statistics/)

I think that Muggle society is better than wizarding society. Let's look at the Internet. Sure, wizards manage without it. But Muggle have an advantage over wizards in this aspect. Look at my statistics for immigration. I found everything I needed in 5 minutes and several clicks. But if you're a wizard, you don't have the Internet. You have get out of your house, Apparate to Ministry, ask for information, and perhaps get what you want after an hour.

Or you can look at prices for wizarding cauldrons. A wizard has to go to each shop individually to check them out and ask his friends how good they are. But with the Internet, you can just got to a site comparing cauldrons, check the reviews it has, and make you decision in 10 minutes, compared with an hour without it.

Let's look at suppressed information. The Internet lets you get information the government wants to keep secret, especially if it comes from the outside world. A wizard without the Internet might be fine with his current dictatorship, but a Muggle with the Internet will know that the outside world is better by Googling.

The Internet makes things so much easier, and wizards have nothing like it. It's like the saying, "You never know what you don't have until somebody tells you." -Belerdorhan

There are a lot of problems with the Magical British Empire concept. The first one is that wizarding events don't follow political ones. But let's say they do. Then you have to follow the political event of the revolution. Or you follow the political event of the British being exhausted after WWII giving autonomy/independence to the colonies. You can't make something true and false whenever you feel like it, which is what you do with Colonial America.

The second one is that there's no reason for wizards to colonize the U.S. Aekiel states that the U.S. had gold, but problem here is that this gold still existed after independence, indicating that the wizards didn't find any. But let's say the wizards found gold. Then Spain would've conquered the U.S., not Britain.

Basically, what the neo-colonists are saying is that, "America is a colony of Britain, despite the fact that wizarding events don't follow political events, for no good reason because if there was a good reason Spain would've conquered America instead, and there was no revolution because wizarding events don't follow political events even though I just said that that fact was false a second ago."

But I'd agree with Mordecai that there's no reason for America to be at the top of the magical world and that magic is primarily traditional. Otherwise how could you have all that cool/cliche family magic?