Grape, what do you make of Umami like, talking a decent amount about fonti's post about the gun being one of her stronger thoughts (I mean, she was prompted, but still talking about it) and talking about wanting her dead ~jokingly, without also voting her? Because earlier I was thinking like, okay, she'd be a newer mafia, who says she's self-conscious, talking like that about a townie who's on her side - but it's also just kind of a strange disconnect.

It's very like, I just don't wanna process more words about the gun from post 6, haha.
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See, and I know this doesn't mean anything coming from me about me, but if I were mafia and you were town (maybe even if you were a partner, idk) I would have definitely started a wagon or made a big push or something by now just so that I could point to the Wonka game and say that totally isn't like me. I think every game we've played together you've scumread me for not ruffling feathers / treading lightly / not wanting to anger people / etc. etc.
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@M Plus 7, do you have any other gun to head reads from the first 150, or after you're done catching up all the way?

How forced are those reads / are reads that you make early in a game, iyo? They read a little bit overelaborated to me, but I don't know what that stems from.

The thought that strikes me is that tom/fonti/Sloth at least seem to me to be as close as there is to consensus town now (I feel like most people have at least one of them up there?) but MP7 got there 200 posts early. I guess the reasons are pretty typical ones - presence, appearing solvy - that generally transfer to being better regarded by the thread.
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If Cuth was saying that he felt iffy because of the similarities, I don't get the question either, but I don't think that was what he meant? As far as I can tell, his question boiled down to "How do you play as mafia? You seem similar to this recent town game."
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Oh but now I want to guess. Is it like a continuation of the spectator thing, where I didn't engage in the conversation between them and only commented on it afterward?

Mm, I think I like that Waco's making this line of questioning in this way, where he's setting it out straightforwardly but not outright going after her for it. Maybe a personality thing, someone who's played with him could tell me more. There's maybe a similarity to the way he handled the early interaction about Tom's post, where he was just nudging people around in his reads.

What are your strongest reads right now, Waco?
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I was thinking about Waco being sort of opportunistically on the sidelines of the discussion yesterday / moving to a world where I'm convinced that Gemma's town in order to pressure that, but I no longer feel convinced about either of those thoughts.
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Umami, you seem to be equivocal about many things you've brought up, so it's a bit hard for me to tell what you're thinking. What are some things that you feel strongly about?

Should I be interpreting you saying "Could be tom being 50/50 with is read accuracy or could be more sinister. Did this stand out to anyone else?" as like, you not actually being sure about tom's alignment, or you being quite suspicious of tom in comparison to other people?
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fonti, can I ask for your thoughts on: Umami's posts on this page, grapefruit, Waco?

 

@Keldeo I don't actually make much of the initial focus on it. People get stuck on weird stuff regardless of alignment (see Quixote, Don). If I had to hazard a guess it's because Fonti made a strong impression on Umami at some point more than about the strategy or Umami's alignment.

 

I feel good about some aspects of Umami's play. I feel like I need to reread her recent posting to have a read that I feel better about. The equivocation doesn't seem to have an overt agenda (fonti isn't going to go over, tom isn't going to go over) so it feels more natural than engineered to a goal. Unless that goal is to look towny via posting so much and so unselfconsciously, but it's still all kinda scattered and quick and invites questioning like Waco's.

Her touching on random things like what Sloth was "getting at" with his one question feels somewhat like how tom was describing the game he played with her as town - although he's not feeling good about her so maybe that wasn't what he meant.


Umami, I think you've mentioned a couple times people seeming to give undue focus to one person or a few people, but I feel like that's probably more a function of them having stronger reads on those people than any agenda. Like, it doesn't really seem to me that tom was trying to mastermind set up a fonti/Gemma dichotomy in the middle of the day or something like that. Or was your point more that he was pushing his reads strongly early / anchoring - if so, do you think that makes him more likely to be mafia?
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Haha, nice crosspost. That makes sense.

Do you have any particular suspicions right now?
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Hmm, I don't really think mafia Sloth would want to express a suspicion of me in specifically this indirect, wink-wink nudge-nudge way...

My other reads don't feel super solid. My read is cooling on fire in particular.

I sort of want to and sort of don't want to vote for Gemma's slot. I guess I'll see how I feel about it in the morning.

Vote Gemma's slot
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Actually, Grape, I think a better way to express my original question to you doesn't have to do with fonti specifically, but the general feeling that Umami's votes seem a bit disconnected from some of her posts.

If someone has a strong opinion about Umami or my thoughts on Umami, it'd be cool to hear before I get to reviewing her posts.

 

@Miner replaces Gemma.

 

About the early lean on mp7, that was simply because he hadn't been active and and clearly we view this differently but I feel like scum would be more active because scum is much more fun to play. Like, I'm fairly sure we can all agree that playing the villain is much more enjoyable?

About my vote, eh, that was way way after my early leanings?

I'm not trying to accomplish anything by saying Day 1 is a shot in the dark. When I said that it was... Literally day 1. I see know how much more the game has opened up and how people can actually come up with solid observations.

Back then it really felt like we had nothing to go on.

Gonna catch up soon (homeschooling ATM.)

(Also thanks, I really enjoyed writing it.)

 

Catching up after I finish my essay. Probably sometime tonight.

 

I'll see what the word on the street is about it. In due time.
For now I should probably order a copy of Knitting for Assholes.​

Votecount 1.3

Miner (4): tom, fontisian, Seratin, Keldeo
tom (3): Grapefruit21, fire, Miner
The Waco Kid (1): Umami

Abstaining (6): Osieorb18, Cuthalion, M Plus 7, Fluffiness, Sloth, The Waco Kid

With 14 alive, soft lynch is 8 and hard lynch is 11.

Deadline is here; about 34 hours remain.

 

They don't necessarily hide per se, but they do post useless non-suggestions.

I'm pushing Umami for the strength of their read. With respect to my direct suggestion - I'm not advocating for that specific pair to be lynched (see my townreads below), but I'm saying that it makes perfect sense to counter-lynch people who supported the busing of someone who ultimately turned out to be town. Do you not agree?

In any case:

Town reads:

fonti - I think there's a reasonable case to be made that talking about the gun before Day 3 helps the scum, because any discussion: (a) gives them information to maximize the effectiveness of their prior night kills; and (b) potentially wastes our time on theoretical D3 action rather than scum hunting now. It's true that you can get some information on alignment from the discussion, but it seems to me less promising when the discussion centers around the theoretical. Hence, the suggestion to avoid this discussion doesn't seem to be a scum-like thing to say.
tom - Confident early scum reads, as noted by umami (who's arguing against Tom in #366). This speaks to me as town-like behaviour, because I don't think scum will leave themselves so blatantly open to a potential retaliatory counter-bus if a mislynch occurs.

Scum read:
Gemma/Miner as replacement - Going off the strength of fonti's read, who presumably knows her best.

Unvote: Tom
Vote Miner

 

Tbh, me being on tom as soon as I enter the game is great.

 

This came after a tense exchange and it basically boiled down both arguments into an absolute and was done in what seemed to be quite a mocking way.

This came across to me like he was baiting and stirring up trouble.

Thing is, I already had a lean on Gemma and I found Tom's explanation satisfactory. His post was only shit stirring if Gemma and Font are both town.

My leanings after the whole exchange became Scum!Gemma and Town!Font/Tom.

 

This is a little bit my thoughts the opposite direction.
Those bits of umami have a theatrical/narrative bent.
Think it's what made me use the word "agenda" despite not knowing what that agenda is and compare her to me...
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Isnt that one game of experience (of me being town) and i was right?
But yes im aware youre a logical, even-keeled dude i dont THINK thats what im looking at.
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Definitely felt this a bit. Our discussion last night wasnt about me or figuring me out, it was a public relations move.

Which
Again sounds like me as any alignment
Still maintain a <new player> playing like me is >randscum
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Oh hi miner

 

@GeneralHankerchief replaces fontisian

 

Hello!

I'm coming in completely cold. Doesn't look like too many posts, so I'm going to read up now.

 

Interesting

Null person becomes person i know i cant read
Scumread becomes someone i usually can
Townread id rather see nightkilled becomes another awesome player id rather see NKed than have to figure out

(Terr/gemma/fonti, in order)
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I think I'll try to amp up my feminine energy now.

 

Ok, I've caught up. I certainly haven't fully digested everything, but this will serve for now.

With that out of the way, I'm keeping my slot's vote on Miner.

Some of this has to do with Fonti's (aka my slot's) read on her, but I just was not a fan of some of her posts. I've never played with Gemma before, and while I recognize her defense in post 268 about her not fixating on the stuff that probably the majority of players do when reading the game, I just really did not like her early set of posting. They were sporadic, short, were out of the solving flow, and just generally wolfy. Here's a study in contrast that I picked up on:

This type of take is somewhat common, the "I'm cheekily going to comment on someone I don't have a read on yet/historically have not had that good of a read on" variant, but it's the wolfier type IMO, especially when contrasted with this:

Now, I'm not giving tom any credit for making this post because it's 100% in his scum range to say this type of thing, but it at least has a read. It's got a take. It's illustrating a tangible thought process in trying to solve the game, something that was absent from a TON of Gemma's early posts and it just stuck out to me like a sore thumb.

One other Gemma post I wasn't a fan of was her 195:

Just viscerally felt like a word salad to me.

Elephant in the room re: Fonti/Gemma is that I, fonti's replacement, am now voting for Miner, Gemma's replacement, partially off the strength of the interactions between two people who are no longer in the game. I wonder how much of this above section is me justifying to myself that it's beyond simply sheeping Fonti. This is weird. Let's move on.

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Elsewhere, I'm giving a couple of very small townreads to Cuth and Keldeo for minor mindmelds: The first of which was Cuth's post 79 regarding one of Grape's early pushes, which I also liked. Cuth got a small point for having a similar reaction, as did Keldeo later on for agreeing with Cuth about it.

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We have two posts on the "hmm" scale that I noticed. The first one from Unami rates as a "hmmmm":

I don't have any particular thoughts on it pertaining to Unami's alignment right now, but I think in the future this is the sort of post to look back on that's kind of telling. More of a "to be continued" than anything else, really, which is why it doesn't rate particularly highly on the scale.

The second one, though, from Seratin, gets a capslock "HMMMMMMMMMMM" on the scale:

My initial, visceral reaction was to kill this post with fire, largely for Seratin's take on Gemma in the middle of said post. The hedge, to me, seemed like the classic "scum hedge" where wolves do the thing where they try to add uncertainty at the end of the take because they unconsciously believe it makes them seem more uncertain about themselves.

That said, this feeling faded a bit when I got a little better handle on Seratin as a player type, and while I probably don't want him dead yet, the initial feeling is still there.

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There's where I am right now. This post has gone on for too long already and has reintroduced me to the wonders of Xenforo, so at least that's something. Today's my first day of quarantine after I got laid off from my previously "essential" job and I'm already going a bit stir-crazy. Probably going to step away for a bit.

Looking forward to real-timing with you all!

 

The seasons game on MTGS you were town and wrong on me, probably bolstered by the slot I subbed into but it was at least partially the same reasoning.

Hmm, so I think the theatrical/narrative-ness feels genuine from Umami and that’s what makes it towny to me. Are you saying that it’s like, applied scummily (the public relations thing) even if it’s genuine from her? Because she does seem to me to focus on the public relations or perceptions aspect of being a wolf.
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GH, do you have a read on Tom?

wrt Umami, Tom and I seem to have noticed a similar thing in the way she expresses things, like she feels like she has to talk a lot, or her posts are narrated/verbose. I think it makes her town and he (at least it’s some part of his read, I think?) thinks it makes her mafia. Do you agree with the observation? Where do you come down if anywhere?
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Also, GH, what do you mean by “got a handle on Seratin as a player type”?

I don’t particularly think he’s w with Miner at least, based on how he approached his slot earlier. Do you get that impression?

 

Hey i can answer that.

Of course GH doesnt have a read on me
Lol
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@GeneralHankerchief my read on seratins player type is "alignment becomes increasingly obvious"
Ftr

 

Haha, okay. I don’t think I know enough about you guys to make that assumption.

I was gonna call both your slots “thread-spewed” town, but that kind of doesn’t work because of Umami, but I think she is the only person who has made opposite reads on both? It feels like a weird line for mafia to take but I don’t know how self-aware she would be about taking that line.

I’m a little confused since you originally said tom and Gemma were your early mafia thoughts, but then you say here that you were suspicious of Tom since he‘d be “shit-stirring” in a world where both Gemma and fonti were town, so how does your original suspicion of Gemma fit in? Was the second bit just like, a connection that occurred to you later?

 

Re: Read on tom, he's correct. No read yet, not going to insult him by saying I have anything more than a slight lean (town).

Re: Umami, I definitely got that vibe to some extent, but it's a little too early for me to tell at this stage. Enlightening answer, I know. :wowee:

Re: Seratin, this isn't a player archetype you find on MU that much due to that site's very nature, but it's one that I'm familiar with on my homesite: it's the site regular who doesn't really play much mafia but is still friendly with the regular playerbase and will occasionally join games out of the forum spirit + to casually play. It's hard to get back into the groove of reading this type of player since it's been a while since my homesite was particularly active, but the key for me is to toss most "MU-givens" of reading people out the window. You need to approach them in a different way, which is why I grew more hesitant about Seratin's hedge on Gemma as I continued to read - if that were coming from a "mafia regular", so to speak, I'd be all over it more. This could just be Seratin being naturally careful.

As far as associatives, my initial gut instinct upon "HMMMMMMMMMMMM"ing was "oh man this might very well be w/w" but his later posts on Gemma/Miner were pretty in-depth so right now I'm leaning towards your line of thinking on that, Keldeo.

 

It's my understanding that grape said they were throwing out a weak defense to test reactions, in which case grape might have done that sort of test on the suspicion that gemma was more than likely scum, but grape's read that gemma may be scum and my read that grape may be town does not affect my read of gemma. Does that make sense? Also, yeah gemma is evasive and whatever, but reading it back to me it just feels like everyone jumped on her and she just was frustrated/not having fun, which doesn't mean she is necessarily scum. I am not trying to town clear gemma or anything, I'm just saying that we should start looking at other players too and that I think it's premature to say 'she's being evasive, she must be scum.' I mean, in the larger context of the current quarantine, I think a lot of people might not quite be their usual selves because life is so different right now
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No offense taken, I'll cool it with the stream of consciousness