M+7

Im not exactly talking about mirroring @Sloth , but in the same way the carson daly analogy doesn't exactly apply...

Ok backtracking a little

The Carson Daly thing was initially about an mtgs player named cantripmancer.
As town, hes a strongwilled force to be reckoned with. Believing things strongly and persuading others by osmosis.
And as scum, his posts sound the same but its hollow. Hes the beige Carson Daly charicature of himself and takes on characteristics of who hes interacting with.
Ive caught him on this three times. Twice on day 1.
Hes... working on it...

Obviously this doesnt quite apply. I wasn't... really talking about interactions. Yes the GH one but that wasnt mirroring or carson it was a specific dynamic. Regardless of M7s alignment, that was him looking to earn a townread from GH. I think i buy he would do that as town, but motivation there as scum is fairly obvious...

I think the bigger thing here is purpose of reads.
M+7 is framing reads for his townreads to read about themselves.
Not to convince others not to lynch them. But, presumably, to make sure they townread him back.

Now i assume hes not completely lying here about self meta. He plays some level of a support role as town.
Perhaps building a towncore, which it is from that perspective profitable to be a part of.
Cant build a towncore if you get mislynched, etc.
This would be a completely different approach than im used to for "town pocketing"
Which i do quite a lot of! Right now i know whatever conclusion i come to on this m+7 will be all but forced to townread me forever regardless of both our alignments...

But of course if hes aware enough of this to make an "ah yes ive been told this before" as town, he would be equally aware as a wolf

Its very possibly <full on NAI for him>
I did notice that m+7 didnt mention how this applies to his wolf game. Which is likely a point towards that theory.

The remaining possibility is that hes covering, and this is in fact a scumtell for m+7.
Id like @M Plus 7 to throw me a link to a similar big readslist hes made as town, preferably in that champs game with gh. And maybe a scumgame where he got really townread...
Im not sure how long ill take to look at those. This requires a fair amount of context. But might as well have them.



If he is a wolf, not sure hed bother with this towards buddies. I would almost definitely clear keldeo if he flipped wolf. (Other, weaker clears would be me and gh. Which isnt very useful)

Its <possible> you could also find buddies in his townreads that dont contain this, especially the ones that might be packaged for more mass consumption. But i definitely dont have that sort of meta knowledge here...

 

Hey. Hey @tom
Why does M7 try so hard to earn a townread from GH only to shoot him N1?

 

For the nightkill analysis, not generally into it.
Theres a narrative that m+7 got his townread from gh and offed him before it could change.

But honestly i think he was the most likely kill either way. Most townread in the game imo. Along with maybe me for some reason. Though slightly less so day 2 thankfully...
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I mean see above.
I dont care about this at all.

I also dont buy m+7 already saying this, with an added "but i like playing with him so much why would i do that"

Which i refuse to believe tbh. Im going to assume m+7 as scum, along with his team, would try to make the kills that led to winning this game.
Think that was gh n1.
Might be me n2 that would be exciting.

 

OK I think I'm misunderstanding something here, because I don't feel like anything I've done this entire game could be described as ingratiating. Also, you mention in your original post that I'm "not playing to get townread but also not filtering what I say", which I don't follow as being particularly AI, since a player who isn't concerned about being townread likely does not filter what they say in the first place.
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So your theory is that M7 believed he was in a strong enough position EOD1 that he could kill off potentially his best defender (and universally townread defender)? Because I don't think we're looking as closely at M7 as we are now if GH was still alive.

 

you are, because hes not saying that afaict
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My theory is that most scumteams would rather gh dead than alive, including the ones with m+7.

 

Can someone else take a look at this because this is like news to me that anyone else was considering fire d1 and I want to be sure that I didn't miss anything.

But if I'm right, then I really don't buy this post.
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Explain.

 

It wasn't "gross reasons" (I never used those words?), it was the fact that I didn't think Umami's waffling on scumreads looked genuine.

At that point, my read of miner was slightly >rand scum, but he had this weird mix of giving up and still posting and critiquing reads that made me very hesitant to vote him.

 

Sloth, about Rhand: Uh, not really organized thoughts, he hasn't posted a ton. I think it's... maybe bold for a mafia to go after you, because I still perceive your thread position as somewhat good. I think that improves my read of him on the "believe that he believes it" scale. I would compare to the one game that we have played together, where he was mafia and I was town, but I don't remember what his biggest pushes were there - I think he pushed me when I was very easy to push? I would like to hear more about his big town core that he had after his catchup.

Sorry, I'm not saying that you've been ingratiating. Does that make sense, or should I reexplain what I'm saying?

My point in wording the original post that way was: you /said/ you weren't playing to get townread, which doesn't necessarily mean you were, but like I thought from your other posts, you were. You also said that playing "for town" is within your range, i.e. you could have chosen to do so, but you didn't. I find that to be ~towny from your position.

In a vacuum attacking my reasons that you're town would also be towny, but you've made it clear that you don't care about dying no matter your alignment, so that's probably not actually a good read.

Also Miner, this'd be the better quote to pull about my fire suspicion being fake. I liked your assessment of his last post, and when I was shuffling around the playerlist, I never really pulled fire up for this... I didn't talk about him at EOD since I didn't think he was ever going over with the wagons being what they were, and without GH's vote.
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Could you elaborate on both of these? Was the second one just in comparison to the counterwagon Umami, or?

 

Tonereads and familiarity are the simple answers. The biggest reasoning yesterday for me was reads from individual posts, just as it was with Rhand. But Rhand's post I can trust a bit more; I have more certainty in its authenticity due to experience with Rhand. And he brings up some good points, particularly about follow-through. Rhand doesn't really put on an act as scum. He just plays the game in another way. And I don't see that here. So I find myself with a hard townread on Rhand. It helps that his thoughts on Miner are similar to my own; mine were that Miner feels pure, particularly in comparison to how Gemma had felt before replacement. And Rhand, in his own way, feels pure as well.

 

Didn't love the Gemma slot, there were a few things I liked from Miner, but not enough to overcome the initial dislike. Hence slightly >rand scum.
The second one was in that I didn't particularly want to vote Miner in general, and in comparison to Umami I was much more confident in her being scum, so I would have felt very uncomfortable voting miner over her.

 

Fluff - alright. I think you already talked about why you weren't liking Gemma, right? Can I ask what you think is your most controversial / hot take on the game rn, and what you make of tom's thoughts on MP7?

I don't have your level of experience with Rhand, could you tell me more about what you mean and how it applies to his behavior this game?

What do you make of Sloth's response to Rhand's points about follow-through? And, to me, "mind meld" implies a prior read on Sloth that agrees with Rhand's read, but were you just saying you agreed with Rhand's points?

 

No worries, you are totally fine, I was admittedly feeling turbulent even before I entered the thread -- which I just couldn't shake for some reason, and so I suppose it was a bad time for me to be in here as well, but I just felt like I owed it to myself and you all to actually try to stay current and figure all this shit out. I am feeling at least mildly better now.

Your point regarding my entrance to Day 2 is absolutely fair, I haven't done any solving to speak of this phase, and so I understand why you'd find that problematic.

And thanks, good to know. I'll file that in the MCU drawer in my brain.
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That's okay, my bad for misunderstanding that. I mean, everyone really, but if I had to prioritize, then I would say anyone that I would immediately GTH into my POE at a minimum.

You know what? I should just do that now, absolutely off the top of my head, even though I want to do some digging to solidify my reads.]

GTH reads:

Would likely not lynch today -- unless something notable happens:
Cuthalion
Keldeo
Miner
tom

Would maybe not lynch today -- needs further investigation:
fire / Rhand
Grape
Sloth
Waco

Would consider lynching today by default -- POE:
Fluff
Osieorb
Seratin
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To add to that post re: you answering my question, thanks for expanding. I actually was having trouble reading you early in this game and I feel like I'm more likely to tinfoil you as well for similar reasons. I'm keeping the townread there though because at the same time I feel like you're playing on a similar level to me if that makes sense, and I have no substantive reason for the tinfoil at this time.
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Thanks for breaking this down.

(1) You know, I understand the logic, but I really think it just depends on the person. As town I desperately want to be townread by players I am townreading because my main objective is to form a towncore, although as scum the reason I would want to be townread similarly is perhaps more evident.

(2) Mafia is a team game, so the natural question that comes to my mind is -- why would anyone not play like that? I realize everyone has their own unique styles, but being aware of all of my fellow players' game states is actually one of my strengths as either alignment, so it would be like... why would I not use that data when trying to figure out and work with my fellow teammates? Does that make sense?

(3) I intended nothing of the sort, but it is possible I did not make that as clear as I should have, even though I find it strange someone would interpret it that way considering I made that ALL CAPS post. I didn't say I want you dead because of Sloth, lol. If you really just go back and read through my EOD, I'm pretty sure I only mention your post once when I was doing that initial digging, but then I proceed to make various posts about why I suspected Umami independently, unless I'm misremembering. I frankly took full responsibility for my vote and large responsibility for Umami's lynch, which frankly is partly why I've felt so bummed out since that day ended. I was feeling pretty sure she would flip scum.

(4) I'm not sure what I can say to that.

And similarly off-topic: I appreciate it, thank you so much. This really is a fun place to play. I feel badfor having a meltdown myself.
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I'm not really good at scum reading, which is why I generally prefer to solve via POE, but this is a good question and one I will ponder as I start digging.
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I don't like being harsh in general, so maybe a game where you're supposed to figure out who's lying to your face is not a natural game for me, lol. And I'm pretty sure I'd be friendly regardless of alignment, or I'd try to be. Sometimes I get all up in people's faces, but if I push it too far, I don't feel good about it. Thread atmosphere is one of the most important parts of the game to me, and I believe strongly that towns in general perform better when the thread is not hostile to working together (with of course re-evaluation always being on the table).

Your comment about not pushing hard enough is fair, I don't think I even disagree with that. Sometimes I don't think to push things harder. Often it's because people's explanations make sense to me, I store that data, and then I return to it later when I re-evaluate.

What do you mean by the bolded/underlined part exactly?
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Aaaaaaaand I'm guessing I'm the only one here.

 

I remember when you first made that read about Cantripmancer tom. I was not convinced and I was wrong.

Anyway I've been unable to focus all day. There are too many words. I'll try to plug in this evening.

 

Sup boo. Im thinking about sloth/rhand/osi rn.
No conclusions
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It keeps working on him too.
Crazy stuff.

 

This is just near upside down to my reads (such as they are). Do you have any active scum reads?

 

I think you wouldn't act disengaged and sad as a wolf who was engaged, meaning if you were a wolf here you'd be playing on the fact that you feel a bit out of touch/unmotivated with the game saying things like "i'm normally town's cheerleader but i'm having a hard time cheerleading myself" as a wolf. Which I don't think you'd feel good about doing.
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I think it's unfair to say he doesn't have any active scum reads-- a majority of his reads on players are below rhand villager.

 

I dont think this is a thing. Hes clearly self aware enough to make that post as either alignment, and theres nothing dirty there in any way.

 

Working through the tom post right now, and seeing if I can find game(s) to link by the way.

Also Cuth, I would love to answer those questions about EOD, let me go back and look in a bit here.

 

He specifically said they were PoE by default. Which implies it is less about them and more about his town reads.

 

I'm not going on a basis of self-awareness-- I'm fully confident in his ability to conceive of and do such a thing, but I'm going on a basis of how I think he approaches the game. There are many people I would never make that read about.