EoD1

Wisp (12): Gemma, The Waco Kid, Cuthalion, Rubicon, Dels, Cobalt, Fluffiness, Sloth, fontisian, Ampharos, Wisp, tom
Waco (2): Vaimes, TerRaine

Abstaining (1): AkinaPuppy

 

Also, how are you still townreading Amy for some selfmeta from Para? Did you not read about the tmi thing I pointed out? Do you not care about any of Amy's content, when there's way more of it then anything Para posted?

 

I'm at a spot where I think if you're town here we're either looking at a world where Cuth is scum, or I'm wrong on Dels and he's scum, or even I guess it's possible they're both scum. I don't think I'm getting snowed by any of Gemma/Vaimes/Sloth and I feel good about Rubicon being town, the game just doesn't really piece itself together properly without one of those worlds existing here or you being scum.

So, talk about Dels & Cuth please? Or talk to me/sell me on other worlds you think can exist?
I'll take words on the Jarizok slot too, because is someone I was very much considering moving to as well.

 

I feel like you should be townreading me from this, and this issues you have with my play have obvious answers.

Wisp played very differently this game. He was easy to read in team mafia because of how he bit back at me. Here, he did a weird song and dance about townreading me for scumreading him that didn't fit with how he's treated me previously at all. He was weird as hell, and even when he started feeling kind of town, every single voice I normally rely on to help me with these things wanted to kill him. What am I supposed to do there, Reg? I'm not certain he's town, I don't have any better places to go, I'm not even sure of my townreads, and I have multiple people making it clear that if we don't flip Wisp that Day they're going to struggle to read him or anything around him until he's dead. Am I supposed to go to bat for him when I'm not sure he's town, and when he'll probably just get yeeted the next Day even if he is? Are you forgetting that I die N1 all the time, and I can't ask people to not kill someone so I can read them the next Day when I may not even be around to do that? Am I supposed to care about keeping him alive when he's not even caring enough to try to townhunt and scumhunt until it was too late?

Fuck, man.

For the other part, iirc Rubicon pointed out that the kill was done to dodge the Joat stuff. That wasn't something I had put a lot of though into, but it makes as much sense as scum being happy with the game-state, so I'm not going to use that to define my reads. Further, I had you replacing in to go over those reads again and look for holes them, which means that I can count on your catch-up and Gemma's interaction with it to find my blind-spots without having to tinfoil myself into oblivion. I think that the theory about scum shooting Akina to avoid you replacing in was ridiculous, since I at least had no idea if you would even be replacing in (it's not like the replacement list is always an accurate representation of people's time commitments and interest) and the idea of killing the slot who's being replaced instead of waiting for you to replace in and /then/ shooting you is pretty stupid, because the scumteam is then likely to end up in this exact situation.

Further, I think scum!Amy would have been fine with the game-state, she literally only had me and tom remotely interested in scumreading her, and likely expected that putting a bit of effort in Today would resolve that.

 

Look Reg, the short of it is that I don't really think the reasoning people have been putting forward about fonti's treatment of Wisp all day 2, that you're putting forward in the bulk of this post, has made a lot of sense. It's full of like, this expectation of her to somehow rise above the action of the thread, and I think the way you're meta reading her is bad. I don't entirely understand why people are heaping this burden on her this game, I haven't seen people treat her this way before. Frankly, none of any of that reasoning does anything for me. Maybe that's my bad, and I should be more receptive to everyone telling me that her EoD was wolfy for her, but that just doesn't feel reasonable to me.

As far as her play today, sure, I can't fault you for thinking all of the things you're thinking. I'm thinking them too, to an extent. I don't think she's been very villagery today, outside her interaction with me around the time you subbed in. There are things she's not doing that she could be doing if she were town, and that ideally she would be doing, to make our lives easier. Yes, I am very concerned that she isn't doing those things, and I appreciate that there's a reasonable world where she as a wolf is displaying a disconnect in her mindset. I can't argue against you about any of that. I think where I disagree is the translation of that logic into a scumread. I don't think she can't be playing this way as town.

On an emotional level, I recongize the fonti I know and love, and I think she's been for the most part very genuine. When I look at what she has put into thread, rather than what she hasn't, I don't really have many concerns. I see her doing things to solve the game in her own way. I don't see her being a snake. I don't see her trying to manipulate people and get them to do what she wants. Does this make me stupid and blind? Maybe. The last time she wolfed against me it was almost insultingly easy to catch her, but she's had several games of practice since then and it's possible she improved her game a lot and became capable of faking the things she wasn't before re: tone, emotionality, and presence, which I guess are the main ways I read her. It's possible. Does that mean I should distrust my read on her? I don't think so. If she's a wolf this game, I'll recalibrate, but until then I see a bunch of things that remind me of her as town, and while I recognize that there's a very logical case for her being a wolf that revolves around her lack of solving today, it doesn't do it for me when I consider that what the logic doesn't account for is the world where she's just being more back of the room this game for reasons that maybe have nothing to do with the game. That she's doing her own thing and maybe it's actually incorrect to try to hold her to a preconceived notion of her play and what she should be doing rather than just looking at what she has put into thread and judging her from that.

 

OK.

I don't really get what Cuth is doing. It's weird, but I don't know if it's scum!weird, I feel like scum!him understands the need to be present in the thread and real time things, and the lack of that could be because of a genuine interest in resorting early posts? I don't know.

I can look at Dels and Jari tonight.

I would appreciate it if you could look at Sloth again. Maybe after I've gone over his posts again to try to sell myself on him being town. I don't think the badness of his push on me is necessarily scummy, but it feels opportunistic, like he's being very selective in what he's choosing to talk about. I also feel like him not assessing anything about Amy beyond his initial reaction to Para despite both me and Tom pushing that and town!Sloth generally respecting my pushes enough to consider them is very weird.

 

For @fontisian only I guess

Spoiler

Like remove those 4 names (Gemma/Vaimes/Sloth/Rubicon) and myself and you're left with 3 scum in the below FYPOV;

Ampharos (r. Paratroopa)
Cobalt
Cuthalion
Dels
TerRaine
The Waco Kid
Tom

If you somehow remove Cuth & Dels you're left with;

Ampharos (r. Paratroopa)
Cobalt
TerRaine
The Waco Kid
Tom

And I just don't think you find a scum team in there? TerRaine & Waco are clearly unaligned, Amy & Town are probably not together.

So that leaves like Amy/Cobalt/TerRaine, or Cobalt/TerRaine/Tom, Amy/Cobalt/Waco, or Cobalt/Waco/Tom? And I don't think the night kill comes from any of those players really. Rubicon might have mentioned that scum are doing it to JOAT dodge but JOAT's just not that 'great' in this setup, a doc save doesn't add a mslynch, just changes F3 to F4, two doc saves are needed for anything to really happen and that's unlikely to occur. Night kill choice doesn't change the trackers action, nor does MD. So that just doesn't mean anything.

So it comes down to, I'm wrong on one of those 4 reads.
I don't think I am.

Or that one of you/Cuth/Dels is scum, so if you're town I need you to take a deep look at them

 

Bless.

I guess I have to actually go back and get my own votals then so I can look at when Wisp and Cobalt were competing.

 

Yeah okay, this is fair, the point about possibly dying and seeing the slot get mslynched anyway makes sense.

I think Amy with one or two partners in decent positions would definitely have thought this and made that night kill, no disagreement there, I think Amy with two partners that aren't the strongest or in the town core or anything definitely wouldn't have left everyone that was looking side eyed at them (Which was more than just Tom/You, was Gemma and possibly someone else?) alive and tried to fight their way into the town core is just very unlikely. Guess it's important that you realise I'm not fighting/pushing Amy!Town or anything, more just there's players that Really Really should be getting attention and looked into that aren't Amy as well.

 

That's fair.

I'm looking at your other post. I think my issue is I don't get the choice to shoot Akina, because it's a terrible shot under every theory presented, so trying to figure out who would make that shot without having an idea of the logic of it just isn't working for me. Like, would an Amy/Waco/Cobalt team make that shot? Maybe if they lost their minds, but I think every scumteam would have had have been out of their minds to do that anyway.

I've accepted that Cuth might be mafia. I don't see how me helping push there when you're already on it and Cuth is barely here would do anything. I'll get to Dels and Cobalt when I can. I have never had anything productive come out of pushing Waco for information, so I going to just let him do his thing and see what he does with it. Same thing with tom and Jari really.

 

Thanks for post Gemma, I will read it after lunch.

Yeah I'm trying to give Cuth some space to do Something Proper, before talking more there I guess.

Thanks, definitely need you to look at those two.

I will look over Sloths post again, but I kind of think Scum!Sloth is less likely to be the first person to vote you there. I don't really agree with his reasoning behind his scum read on you, in that the meta-ish comments and stuff, is Very Much You, and not really done in the way he's said, but I think it sort of meshes with how I think he reads the game/games based on the TM chat and how he played the D1 as town. Think the only bit that I'm ehhh on his the lack of thoughts on Amy as a player individually, definitely not ideal but there's enough there that I'm looking at his thoughts on that I'm vibing with that I don't really mind it too much on initial read.

 

I don't want to be here.

Unvote: Cobalt

I don't think Cobalt is a wolf. I can see the argument for "underwhelming" but I've generally been nodding my head along with everything he's been posting all day, particularly the stuff about tom and Fonti.

 

Town
Regfan
Vaimes
fonti

Maybe town
Waco
tom
Sloth
Dels

Null
Rubicon

Wolfy-ish
Cobalt
Ampharos
Cuth

Gamestate/sanity wolf
Jarizok

 

I think there's a few reasons that the shot could have happened for, and some of them I don't think are 'bad reasons'. I think it's possible that the scum team was just in a very good position and didn't want anyone to come in with fresh thoughts and possibly really flip the status quo. I think they could have been scared of Newcomb or myself replacing in, because we're more sort of leaderish dominant and could take thread control from them, or be able to get a lynch through on them. Could also be because they're scared either of us are players that read them well (But I think that would have pointed to Vaimes or Gemma and I don't think either is mafia). Could be because all of the town players had bad reads and were generally suspected.

I think you're coming at this from a bit more of a "Scum should have shot and hunted for a PR read", and in most setups I'd agree with you, in this one it's a little less important for some reasons I don't really want to go into right now.

 

Think I'm willing to put some faith in Gemma thinking I'm wrong on Fonti and aren't confident enough to overrule that, I will probably complain a bit to her postgame if Fontis scum and somehow endgames but for today I'm probably not lynching Fonti.

Definitely want to look and focus more in the Jarizok/Cuth/Amy/Cobalt grouping, and in that I'm probably more likely to want Jarizok/Cuth > Amy > Cobalt?

Unvote, Vote: Jarizok

 

I like everything Reg has been doing, but the person who I am melding with the most atm is Sloth. Sloth's post where he narrowed down his vote choices today to "Fonti/Tom/Jari" is basically exactly what I was thinking before entering the thread. I don't really think Jari is scummy in any way, I just think it's the most likely spot for someone I townread early to be, like, "yeah they had good posts but none of it was clearing and they can actually just be a wolf, oops"

I did look back at Cuth's day 1, I hadn't realized how almost all of his content was centered around Wisp. I liked it back then, but I can't really fight against him being lowered. It's hard because like you said he's stuck in a catch up mode now. His reads list was okay. His catch up thoughts are fine? Idk. He can be a wolf, but it's not somewhere I have a strong desire to throw out my earlier read and vote today.

Amy is a similar spot. She never responded to my question but we're nearing second half of day so I will say it, I had some major flashbacks to a previous game where I was a wolf with her and she got suspicion near the end of the day for similar reasons and basically omgus'd her voter (tom, in this case) in the same way. The thing I feel is different here is she had a legit reason for it. I didn't like tom's case on Amy being "oh she's acting confident but also not really confident?" I actually forgot Reg that you spec'd the last game, but this sort of "putting on an act of confidence, while not actually being it" is totally in Amy's wheelhouse right now, as you saw. I also just don't have a major problem with any of the stuff she's done. It'd be hypocritical of me to have a problem with her voting Wisp after I basically convinced her to. (though she got there on her own)

Her catch up reads are better than Cuth's, there's more effort put in to taking decisive stances, which I think is a townie thing for her. Persona or not, I think she's into, like... showing off the intelligence of her "stick to basics" reads, like just being like "Boom, Dels is happy to be here, so he's town". I think even with last game (I don't think she'd be super discouraged by it) she's been feeling a lot more into her ability to sort a game spec chat style, recently, and I think she's having fun doing it.

I wasn't really expecting to write this post but now that I have I feel the conclusion I've come to is "Cuth maybe wolf maybe town" but I think I'm townreading Amy.

 

Complain away. I woke up today and said fuck it I'm townreading fonti. I have no regrets.

 

Interesting same-time, Reg. Do you agree with my reasons for thinking Amy more likely town than Cuth?

And oh my god Gemma I just realized, I want to be clear

"I don't want to be here" meant I don't want be on the Cobalt wagon. Not that I don't want to be here.

 

There is no here here.