I've not read any of the books, so I'm curious if there is any reason that you think Corlys Velaryon couldn't have been black? Is he described in a book at any point?

 

House Velaryon are Valyrians and so have the same silver hair and purple eye colourings as the Targaryens. It's not completely impossible that Corlys had a Summer Islander for a mother, given House Velaryon's reputation for seafaring. Corlys did have two to four children though and all of them had the standard Valyrian traits.

 

Based on the picture I posted above, he has silver hair and what might be purple eyes.

 

The only real problem with the casting would be his "grandchildren". Corlys' son Laenor was gay and it was widely thought that none of Rhaenyra's children were his. If Laenor's black and those kids aren't it'll be even less deniable.

 

Seems like a weird thing to get wound up about then, if the only potential issue with his casting is that the character's grandchildren may or may not have a different appearance.

 

I think it's more that such a thing would have been quite remarkable in universe, and therefore would have been remarked on a lot. It's not about racism or anything, it's just that in most medieval settings (including irl Medieval Europe which Westeros is loosely based on) if someone had features noticeably different from the norm in their area, it was a big deal.

Hell, there's all kinds of stuff in the Norse sagas that mention how ridiculously swarthy the Irish were to Norse eyes, and if the comparatively miniscule differences between Irish and Norse appearance was enough to arouse repeated commentary, I can only imagine how big of a deal it would have been if some Viking explorer and war chief turned out to be black.

So really it's just a matter of in-universe consistency. Every other character that's introduced that is even part Summer Islander has their appearance remarked on near constantly, because the vast majority of Westerosi have nearly zero contact with foreigners of any kind, much less ones so exotic to their eyes. I imagine it would certainly have been worth mentioning that one of the most famous Westerosi nobles in their recent history looked so radically different from the norm for them. If anything, it probably would have become an important part of the mythos surrounding him.

 

Rhaenyra is also the heir to the Iron Throne. The bastardry of her children being that obvious could complicate the war of succession between her and her half-brother that forms the basis of the plot.

 

Their appearance makes it even more obvious that they are illegitimate.

People are looking for in-universe reasons to justify the choice even though it is obvious that it was done to fufill the diversity quota.

 

More or less, yeah. There's nothing wrong with diversity in entertainment media, but it has to take a back seat to storytelling if you want your show/comic/movie/whatever to stand on its own artistic merits. Now, if there's no real implications for the story one way or the other (or if you are producing an original work rather than an adaptation), then sure cast however you like. A good example of this would have been casting a black girl as Hermione in the Harry Potter movies. As far as I can remember, it wouldn't have contradicted anything, and it would have had zero implications that could indirectly contradict anything down the line.

But in this case the logical in-universe implications of the casting choice actively endanger the internal consistency of the plot, which breaks immersion and reduces the enjoyment felt by pretty much any fan who values internal consistency in the setting and coherent plotlines. Basically it was a dumb casting decision from a storytelling perspective. There are tons of other characters they could have done this with where it wouldn't have caused any issues, but instead they picked a character whose bloodline (and its legitimacy) is a central factor in a lot of the intrigue and conflict of the story.

 

Having not read the book this is based on, I don't know the genealogical issues at hand.

However you're all forgetting a very key point - the story may not be identical to the book, so you might all be wailing and knashing about nothing.

Rather than complaining about a black person being cast because you think it contradicts the book (even though from what was said in a previous post the character is never described in the book), why not wait and see whether it actually causes a problem in the show.

If it causes a plot hole or inconsistency in the show, I'll absolutely criticise them for bad writing and/or bad casting.

But complaining about it right now and calling it diversity quota which endangers the plot just makes you look ridiculous.

 

I mean, nobody is "wailing or gnashing" about anything. There are just people saying it's a suspect choice because largely the image of the Velaryons is white, whether right or wrong.

People have commented that it's an odd choice when it didn't need to be done but nobody is going insane over it. It really seems like you're just looking for a high horse to climb up on here.

 

Does it? I mean, since they've made no secret of the fact that it is an adaptation of a particular work, why is it unreasonable to assume and expect that it will adhere to at least the broad strokes of the source material? If they can re-work the plot to make it a non-issue, then great. That brings up its own issues though, because how much reworking can they do before it's no longer an adaptation and becomes something closer to an original work (and therefore, to fans expecting a particular story, a piece of false advertising)?

On the other hand, if they keep the original plot, I don't see many ways for them to fix things. This casting choice forces them into a corner, writing wise. Either they have to rewrite a significant part of the story entirely (and possibly whole sections of the lore, depending on exactly what "fix" they come up with), or they have to accept and ignore a comically large plot hole.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity in entertainment. But when they do it in such a bafflingly clumsy, messy, forced way that causes easily foreseeable problems with their product, it just smells like blatant studio pandering.

 

I misspelled a word? Oh my god, however will the world survive...

People are declaring it diversity quota casting and haven't provided a single explanation for why it couldn't be the case that this character, who @Hansar indicated wasn't ever established as white, could be played by a black actor. The only thing people are saying is about the characters grandchildren needing to not appear illegitimate. Ok, do we know the casting of any of the grandchildren? If not, the complaint is bullshit.

My guess would be that their attitude will be similar to the attitude taken during the filming of GoT - which is to say that the fans of the books don't matter, and the only thing they care about is making a tv show that gets high viewership. They didn't hesitate even for a moment to deviate from the books for GoT, why would they hesitate for this show when the background material has an even lower readership that the main series?

 

You're literally making more of a deal about this than anyone just so you can be on your soapbox.

Yes some people would have preferred a race of typically white people to be white but apart from a minor "Huh, odd choice" nobody here is on a crusade about it.

We get it, you love diversity and you're a big brain human. Just let the people who think it's an inconsistent casting option be without going on a nazi hunt.

 

Yes, god forbid that if someone posts something, someone else dares to reply to it on a discussion forum.

 

Okay, so I was going to get irritated with you, but then I remembered that you haven't read the book, and looking back, no one actually fully explained the plot point this throws into confusion.

Spoiler: Spoilers for anyone who hasn't read the books and doesn't want to know

So basically the problem is that Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen (who is very, very white) winds up married to Laenor Velaryon, the son of Corlis (the character in question, whose family, the Velaryons, are also canonically well established as being very white, seeing as how they're from an almost pure Valyrian bloodline, and Valyrians are about the whitest goddamn people in this universe), but Rhaenyra has an affair with another man (also established as a very white, standard Westerosi Andal).

Her husband Laenor is actually super flamboyantly gay (like, dangerously so in a culture as homophobic as Westeros) and doesn't really care that the wife he's got no interest in is sleeping around, but it causes political problems because Rhaenyra was named the heir of her father King Viserys I. Most of the nobles don't like this because she's a woman, and the Hightowers in particular want to disenfranchise her because the King's second wife (and mother of his younger children, including several boys) is a Hightower herself.

The inevitable succession crisis happens when Viserys dies and civil war breaks out. At some point, the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children (who iirc, are in fact illegitimate) becomes a semi-major issue in determining the loyalties of some noble houses and helps to turn support away from Rhaenyra, who eventually loses the war.

The issue is that everyone else involved is white, which means that if Rhaenyra is pumping out little blond babies while married to a black man, it's going to be painfully obvious that they are bastards, making the whole fairly important political issue of which noble believes in their bastardry or not a little ridiculous.

Now that I think about it, maybe they can clear this up by casting another black guy in the role of the guy she was cheating with. That would contradict the descriptions and illustrations given in the book, but is ultimately less problematic then just handwaving the whole thing.

It just seems like a careless change to make when themes of succession, heredity, and inheritance are very literally the core issues the whole plot revolves around.

Maybe that'll clear things up for you a bit.

EDIT:

No, the problem is your tone, which has been consistently more belligerent than anyone else's in this particular discussion. Maybe that's not the way you intended it, but it's definitely the way you come across.

 

That certainly clears up where you're coming from, but I still think that criticising casting because an actors race might cause a problem depending on how its portrayed in the show is ridiculous until you've actually seen the show. GoT departed happily from lots of pieces of the books, there's no reason to think that the show runners of this show won't give the exact same number of fucks about the books and the expectations of the fans of the books - which is to say precisely zero fucks.

If the guy being black ends up making something in the show not make sense, then I'll be criticising the casting decision as well. But until we see the show, we don't know whether it'll make sense or not. You pointed out an extremely easy way they could make it work, and depending on what else they're planning on changing there's plenty of other things that could change to help it all work out.

Potentially there's even plot reason for him to be black, they could very easily include something around his heritage and a connection to the summer isles in the plot. Especially if they're trying to set up potential subsequent shows.

 

@Mordecai

You just don't know the lore. The Velaryons, like Corlys, were the second choice for Targaryens to marry, after their own family members.

Their Valyrian blood made them so powerful.

Westeros isn't earth. Only one small island is actually inhabited by black-skinned people.

 

That's probably fair, but after the travesty that was GoT Season 8, I just don't have enough trust in the competence of HBO's people to give them that benefit of the doubt. I don't really believe that they've thought it through. Maybe they have and I'm completely off-base, but I would be thoroughly unsurprised if they suddenly ran into the plot point they've put into question and just flailed around aimlessly for a while, looking for a last-minute fix after they realize there's a problem halfway through the show.

 

Othalan does a good job of summarising the immediate issues with the casting of Corlys and the events of the Dance, but I wanted to add that beyond those immediate concerns it just flat out doesn’t make sense from what we know of the Targaryens.

Repeatedly in Game of Thrones/ASOIAF, we’re told that the Targaryens highly value retaining their unique genetic traits (to the point of dangerously incestuous intermarriage) of blond hair, purple eyes and extremely pale skin. Sometimes they’ll marry to great houses for political reasons, but otherwise they’re all about the eugenics.

The reason they’ve intermarried with the Velaryons so many times is because of how similar they are genetically. It makes no sense for Viserys to betroth his heir to someone who will likely result in losing the “classic Targaryen” appearance we’ve repeatedly been told they value extremely highly. Nor does it make sense for the Velaryons, who have gained a lot from being chosen throughout the years for royal marriages due to their close genetic match, to allow their mainline to diverge so far genetically.

I mean hell, this is a universe where one of the major reasons for the Blackfyre Rebellion was marrying a Dornish woman. Trying to pretend the Targaryen’s don’t care about the colour of skin of their future heirs is nothing less than a huge retcon.

In the grand scheme of things it may not be the biggest deal, but from my experiences when those adapting a story don’t care to get the little details correct, they definitely won’t care enough to get the big ones correct either. Perhaps as Othalan says if HBO hadn’t literally just nosedived their previous ASOIAF adaptation (helped largely along by a bunch of pointless changes from the source material) I’d have even an iota of trust for their vision. At the end of the day I’m interested in seeing GRRM’s works that I love adapted faithfully, not the take on it of some random producers HBO hired.